P&O Ferries told to stay in port

[RidersofRohan]

The markup on imported clothing from Asia is huge, even at a 50% discount its still cheaper than having it made in the UK.

You are missing the point. Continuous local supply means you can match supply to actual demand. Sell 20% more of your most popular lines at full prices and have fewer sale reductions at the end of the season.
Add in the massive increases in shipping container costs.
I used to have a franchised outdoor shop in Hebden Bridge. I used to moan at the Ops Director of the franchisor that the skills in the Calder Valley were still there to run up any garment he needed and have it there in his stores next day, not three months later. He never argued the economics, but said every British factory he ever visited was damp, dirty and using 1950’s technology. Whereas in China the exact opposite was the case. Back to Mr Wino’s point about Investment and Training.
It’s all doable if we really want to.

 

[Vipar]

CEO on £325,000 pa poor sod

 

[The Wino]

You are missing the point. Continuous local supply means you can match supply to actual demand. Sell 20% more of your most popular lines at full prices and have fewer sale reductions at the end of the season.
Add in the massive increases in shipping container costs.
I used to have a franchised outdoor shop in Hebden Bridge. I used to moan at the Ops Director of the franchisor that the skills in the Calder Valley were still there to run up any garment he needed and have it there in his stores next day, not three months later. He never argued the economics, but said every British factory he ever visited was damp, dirty and using 1950’s technology. Whereas in China the exact opposite was the case. Back to Mr Wino’s point about Investment and Training.
It’s all doable if we really want to.

You just said I was a pessimist!! now my ideas a good one!. I think the wages of the HGV drivers etc that you quote will rise as the national GDP does. I don't know the figures but suspect a German HGV driver earns significantly more than one in Africa despite free movement of labour in Europe because they live in a country with a modern economy despite integration of a basket case east Germany. The economy didn't get better by paying higher wages to low skilled people but by education being targeted to provide the skills needed. They also have for years valued engineers as highly as professions regarded here as superior ( medics academics etc).
It's often said if you pay peanuts you get monkeys but if you pay monkeys more you've still got monkeys. We need a higher skilled workforce not necessarily in academic qualifications although the right ones certainly help. I think one big mistake was abandoning selection in education there was a problem with the 12+ but it wasn't the selection of those suited to an academic education but the lack of status awarded to people doing practical jobs. A friend who's wife is a teacher was saying she thought it was terrible around here as all a lot of kids wanted was to get a trade and a van and be self employed good on them I say.

 

[Coolcats]

And the Unions seemingly knew nothing about it….

As Peter Hebblethwaite stated to the parliamentary committee no he did not speak to the Unions or staff about this plan

 

[Coolcats]

.......Mr Hebblethwait......are you in the mess because you just don't know what you are doing or are you shameless Criminal....

Paying new staff around £11K a year whether they live on board or not is in my view usury

We all need to pay what it costs to run a business rather than support a wage race to the bottom, there will be many people on here who's pensions are far higher than £11K per year

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[ShiftZZ]

In 2005, Irish Ferries replaced all its workers with foreign agency labour that was cheaper than that of its rivals, such as P&O Ferries, Stena Line and DFDS, thereby undercutting their prices. Its competitive practice, as well as the use of security personnel to carry out the replacement of its crew members, were described by many in the industry as a "blueprint" for P&O's 2022 sacking of hundreds of its seafarers.
The company is a division of the Irish Continental Group (ICG) which trades on the Irish Stock Exchange and the London Stock Exchange. ICG also owns the Eucon container line which operates vessels on routes operating between Ireland and the continent.

 

[Clipgate]

News update
The crews personal belongings have been taken from there cabins and lockers and thrown in waste bins.
That is the contempt displayed for UK law
Think about the connotations !

 

[Clipgate]

Race to the bottom indeed , remember "Singapore on Thames"
Well it's coming true and the majority wanted it.

 

[olley]

P&O say they were losing 100 million a year, that's a nice round figure I wonder how true that is, or is this just some creative accounting?

 

[ShiftZZ]

P&O say they were losing 100 million a year, that's a nice round figure I wonder how true that is, or is this just some creative accounting?

Let's for one moment assume that's true, their options are fairly limited. You can't run a business making that level of loss if true what other options were available, its OK protesters out there protesting, but IF the losses are correct, what are they suggesting?

I see the ministers are threatening all sorts, I dont see fines etc restoring the jobs

What P and O did was illegal, I suspect it was an edit from overseas,, yes shoot the messenger, but will legal action change their mind ?

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[Ivory55]

Race to the bottom indeed , remember "Singapore on Thames"
Well it's coming true and the majority wanted it.

Majority ? Explain don’t hide what you’re on about. Haha

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Race to the bottom indeed , remember "Singapore on Thames"
Well it's coming true and the majority wanted it.

If you go to Singapore you will see a rich and prosperous country with very high living standards, low taxation and wages to suit, in an economy that caters for numerous industries on what is something similar to the Isle of Wight. It would not be a bad thing at all. The EU bleat on about it because it frightens them.

Per capita income UK 2020 £30541
Per capita income Singapore 2020 $58902 which is £44963
50% higher than UK.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

News update
The crews personal belongings have been taken from there cabins and lockers and thrown in waste bins.
That is the contempt displayed for UK law
Think about the connotations !

A bit like standard practice when being fired from most other jobs then. Contents bagged and labelled for the recipient to collect. They will not have been thrown away, as you imply

 

[Lenny HB]

Paying new staff around £11K a year whether they live on board or not is in my view usury

We all need to pay what it costs to run a business rather than support a wage race to the bottom, there will be many people on here who's pensions are far higher than £11K per year

I don't agree at all with what they have done certainly not the way they have done it.

On the news last night the new crews are getting £5.50 an hour for their 48 hour week that is nearly 14k, in their home country that is propably the equivalent of over 40k. For them its a really good wage.

 

[John Barrett]

If you go to Singapore you will see a rich and prosperous country with very high living standards, low taxation and wages to suit, in an economy that caters for numerous industries on what is something similar to the Isle of Wight. It would not be a bad thing at all. The EU bleat on about it because it frightens them.

Per capita income UK 2020 £30541
Per capita income Singapore 2020 $58902 which is £44963
50% higher than UK.

AND there is no chewing gum on the pavement!

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[Spriddler]

If you go to Singapore you will see a rich and prosperous country with very high living standards, low taxation and wages to suit, in an economy that caters for numerous industries on what is something similar to the Isle of Wight. It would not be a bad thing at all. The EU bleat on about it because it frightens them.

Per capita income UK 2020 £30541
Per capita income Singapore 2020 $58902 which is £44963
50% higher than UK.

I know nothing about Singapore but I wonder if it's because the U.K. has far more of the population who are unemployed, on min wage or claiming benefits?

 

[The Wino]

If you go to Singapore you will see a rich and prosperous country with very high living standards, low taxation and wages to suit, in an economy that caters for numerous industries on what is something similar to the Isle of Wight. It would not be a bad thing at all. The EU bleat on about it because it frightens them.

Per capita income UK 2020 £30541
Per capita income Singapore 2020 $58902 which is £44963
50% higher than UK.

The Top 10 Need-to-Know Poverty in Singapore Facts

These top 10 poverty in Singapore facts demonstrate the acute issues for low-income houses. However, the Singaporean government is making considerable strides to help its people.

borgenproject.org

Maybe it's a bit like the States a nice place if you're wealthy not if you're poor, ill without private healthcare etc. I seem to recall they're not very keen on freedom of speech and freedom to protest.

 

[John Barrett]

I know nothing about Singapore but I wonder if it's because the U.K. has far more of the population who are unemployed, on min wage or claiming benefits?

You missed out 'Bone Idle'!

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Mr Hebblethwait......are you in the mess because you just don't know what you are doing or are you shameless Criminal....

Paying new staff around £11K a year whether they live on board or not is in my view usury

He knew exactly what he was doing, so did his lawyers and everyone else involved. They broke UK a employment law in full knowledge of the consequences. The alternative was pulling in the receivers

You call it Usury - the ITF, ILO and United Nations call it internationally agreed pay scales (updated every year) which is paying people.

You might like to check your use of the word “usury” which is charging extortionate interest rates on loans, not paying less than UK and Union agreed high rates of pay for overseas crew

 

[The Wino]

I don't agree at all with what they have done certainly not the way they have done it.

On the news last night the new crews are getting £5.50 an hour for their 48 hour week that is nearly 14k, in their home country that is propably the equivalent of over 40k. For them its a really good wage.

You could equally argue that people working long hours in sweatshops making garments and sleeping on the floor are relatively well off. It doesn't mean they are well off compared to people in the UK. I still think this is a bit of a wake up call. Removing a lot of tariffs is going to see increases in competition between people who think£5.50 an hour and a 48 hour week is really generous and UK workers who are going to find it impossible to compete. Manufacturers will love it move the manufacturing to a cheap country and head office to a low tax country.

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[DuxDeluxe]

The Top 10 Need-to-Know Poverty in Singapore Facts

These top 10 poverty in Singapore facts demonstrate the acute issues for low-income houses. However, the Singaporean government is making considerable strides to help its people.

borgenproject.org

Maybe it's a bit like the States a nice place if you're wealthy not if you're poor, ill without private healthcare etc. I seem to recall they're not very keen on freedom of speech and freedom to protest.

Well, I see no mention of lack of healthcare in Singapore. It is all publicly funded with additional private sector and according to the economist number 1 in the world. Free for all citizens and residents.

Also there are government aid projects for people on low or no incomes - people who are not legal residents of Singapore don’t get this.

I find it a bit rich that the Borgen Project is a US organisation criticising other nations healthcare. It would be funny if they had decent healthcare for everyone in USA

 

[DuxDeluxe]

You could equally argue that people working long hours in sweatshops making garments and sleeping on the floor are relatively well off. It doesn't mean they are well off compared to people in the UK. I still think this is a bit of a wake up call. Removing a lot of tariffs is going to see increases in competition between people who think£5.50 an hour and a 48 hour week is really generous and UK workers who are going to find it impossible to compete. Manufacturers will love it move the manufacturing to a cheap country and head office to a low tax country.

In countries like Pakistan, it is the difference between living and starving.

with lower rates of pay, why do you think that any jobs and industries have already been offshored? Crews queue up to join ships whose pay structure is signed up to ITF a rates as that is a lot more than some of these flag states pay. All reputable shipping companies pay decent rates by most standards and simply making a comparison with UK rates is a non argument

I do not condone what P&O did - they did it to my fleet in 1985, the principle reason was the high cost of NUS crew; I saw it coming and quit. I think that the RMT were blind if they didn’t see it either - competitors have done the same.

 

[The Wino]

Well, I see no mention of lack of healthcare in Singapore. It is all publicly funded with additional private sector and according to the economist number 1 in the world. Free for all citizens and residents.

Also there are government aid projects for people on low or no incomes - people who are not legal residents of Singapore don’t get this.

I find it a bit rich that the Borgen Project is a US organisation criticising other nations healthcare. It would be funny if they had decent healthcare for everyone in USA

Actually I didn't look up the healthcare but a system. It has got a lot of very wealthy and very poor people so a high average income but still poverty. If we were to look at other countries to emulate how about the Nordic countries. Consistently top of the best places to live ratings good social care and education. Maybe it's an illusion but I've always thought countries that have developed in areas where life was difficult before industrialisation have done consistently better than ones where a subsistence existance is easy and typically have better social care.

 

[The Wino]

In countries like Pakistan, it is the difference between living and starving.

with lower rates of pay, why do you think that any jobs and industries have already been offshored? Crews queue up to join ships whose pay structure is signed up to ITF a rates as that is a lot more than some of these flag states pay. All reputable shipping companies pay decent rates by most standards and simply making a comparison with UK rates is a non argument

I do not condone what P&O did - they did it to my fleet in 1985, the principle reason was the high cost of NUS crew; I saw it coming and quit. I think that the RMT were blind if they didn’t see it either - competitors have done the same.

I'm talking about the economy in general rather than just shipping which by it's nature is international. I'm thinking particularly of trade deals with countries where manufacturing/ agriculture is cheap but tariffs in the past have reduced the incentive to import

 

[2657]

If you go to Singapore you will see a rich and prosperous country with very high living standards, low taxation and wages to suit, in an economy that caters for numerous industries on what is something similar to the Isle of Wight. It would not be a bad thing at all. The EU bleat on about it because it frightens them.

Per capita income UK 2020 £30541
Per capita income Singapore 2020 $58902 which is £44963
50% higher than UK.

Exactly how is that wealth distributed.
I think Monaco would also have a high per capita income.

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[DuxDeluxe]

Actually I didn't look up the healthcare but a system. It has got a lot of very wealthy and very poor people so a high average income but still poverty. If we were to look at other countries to emulate how about the Nordic countries. Consistently top of the best places to live ratings good social care and education. Maybe it's an illusion but I've always thought countries that have developed in areas where life was difficult before industrialisation have done consistently better than ones where a subsistence existance is easy and typically have better social care.

Being poor in Singapore as a citizen is way better than being poor in nearly every other country in the world.

Nordic states ……. I ran our Scandinavian business for a few months in Oslo and in Gothenburg. I must have imagined the people on the streets there…………

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I'm talking about the economy in general rather than just shipping which by it's nature is international. I'm thinking particularly of trade deals with countries where manufacturing/ agriculture is cheap but tariffs in the past have reduced the incentive to import

It is called world trade. Supply and demand and it makes the whole economy of everything work

 

[John Barrett]

In countries like Pakistan, it is the difference between living and starving.

SNIP

I was shocked and horrified by what I saw the first time I went into a Pakistan sweatshop. There were young boys working potentially unsafe machines on peacework rates.
It's easy to be a bit sniffy about low pay rates, but what you say is quite true as the family would probably starve without the additional income.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Exactly how is that wealth distributed.
I think Monaco would also have a high per capita income.

Probably in a much better way than UK and many other countries around the world. Monaco As an example is utterly irrelevant

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I was shocked and horrified by what I saw the first time I went into a Pakistan sweatshop. There were young boys working potentially unsafe machines on peacework rates.
It's easy to be a bit sniffy about low pay rates, but what you say is quite true as the family would probably starve without the additional income.
My socks were made in Indonesia...

Me too. When I really bitched about it and the disgusting conditions that fact was simply pointed out to me. And again in Manila……

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