P&O Ferries told to stay in port

[DuxDeluxe]

If they have such a dominant position why can they not increase prices instead of cutting labour costs

Simply put, they haven’t. Someone will step into that gap…. As big as it is. The Greek and Italian ferry companies will already be running the numbers and looking to pick up some cheap secondhand ex P&O ferries….. which is how they took over Townsend Thoresen, remember

 

[2657]

Simply put, they haven’t. Someone will step into that gap…. As big as it is. The Greek and Italian ferry companies will already be running the numbers and looking to pick up some cheap secondhand ex P&O ferries….. which is how they took over Townsend Thoresen, remember

Yes that's how a free global market seems to work if unchecked, a race to the bottom!
Slave labour is the obvious solution to maximise profits.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Yes that's how a free global market seems to work if unchecked, a race to the bottom!
Slave labour is the obvious solution to maximise profits.

Not really….. that is why we have labour laws and they have United Nations globally agreed ITF/ILO agreed rates. Anything but slave labour, the point of which was made above.

 

[The Wino]

Not really….. that is why we have labour laws and they have United Nations globally agreed ITF/ILO agreed rates. Anything but slave labour, the point of which was made above.

Maybe not slave labour but labour at a wage that would not be a wage anyone living in the UK paying rent etc could afford to live on. Effectively the jobs are lost to the UK. I suspect quite a few other companies are looking wondering if they could save in a similar way

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Maybe not slave labour but labour at a wage that would not be a wage anyone living in the UK paying rent etc could afford to live on. Effectively the jobs are lost to the UK. I suspect quite a few other companies are looking wondering if they could save in a similar way

People are doing that all the time - they live on the ships and do not pay UK rent so it simply does not happen. Of course DFDS and others are looking at this. Judging by the experiences of doing Harwich/Hook ferries, Stena have been doing it for years - not a surprise as I believe they use Northern Marine Management for their fleet manning and management. Commonly abbreviated to “No More Money”

Ship owning and ship management is a very complex and cutthroat business…. I do not condone what they do but have a lot of personal experience in how they operate. Having said that, there are some very, very good shipowners/manager/operators/charterers out there with whom it was a pleasure doing business. Some others…….. not so much. P&O Ferries (not the cruise line - totally different company) are copping a huge amount for flak, but believe me, I have seen worse

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[Rudski01]

HGV drivers have seen decent pay rises recently.

Maybe around central distribution hubs, and down south, definitely not up the far north

 

[The Wino]

That has happened over last 20 years, the off shoring of manufacturing jobs to China and the East.
I expect some of the Work From Home brigade will find that employers will realise that their administration and technical can be done anywhere in the world eg when the guy from Halifax never ever appears again in their Leeds offices and they think someone in India would do it for a lot less.
But there are many jobs that cannot be outsourced. HGV drivers have seen decent pay rises recently. I am sure there are many more in other jobs mainly in the private sector gaining from the protection given by the withdrawal of freedom of movement.

What protection?. If you mean there are more jobs available I couldn't agree more but as we've seen with p and o if jobs effectively move to another country rather than there's increaed competition because other workers move here there won't be the jobs available anymore at minimum wage as they're going to be done in another part of the world for much less. There will be a short term increase in wages due to labour shortages then the outsourcing is going to accelerate along with inflation. There's only one way out of low wages in the long run increased productivity and a higher skilled workforce ( well I suppose thats two!)

 

[2657]

Not really….. that is why we have labour laws and they have United Nations globally agreed ITF/ILO agreed rates. Anything but slave labour, the point of which was made above.

I understand the way the system has been allowed to develop but the simple fact is that these ferries are operating out of UK ports and in my opinion should be subject to UK laws regardless of who owns the company or where the boat is registered.
How is it that Brittany Ferries manage to survive with French registered boats and French crews, do they have different laws in France or is it that the French owned company has some morals.
BF have done this while seeing off competition from other companies including P&O.

Edit: I realise that these ferries operate between the UK and other European ports so without getting into a B***** argument EU rules/laws should apply.

 

[Realist]

The biggest problem with this country is it’s to expensive to live in end of story. The rich get richer and the poor get even poorer and they are true words indeed.

This country is ran like a pyramid scheme scam where the crap always runs down hill.

This country should be disgusted with itself for allowing it to be run like it is, yes we are one of the richest countries in the world but that down to the hard work of the lowest paid people in taxes paid in life and death.

P&O are a business after all and yes it was wrong the way they sacked 800 loyal staff and should of gone the correct route, would of been better to take voluntary redundancies and see how that fairs first, now they have dug a hole and started a trend for other to follow.

Bottom line is this country is F****D end of and those that live in London thrive and the rest of the U.K. are just cannon fodder.

Shame.

 

[emjaiuk]

I understand the way the system has been allowed to develop but the simple fact is that these ferries are operating out of UK ports and in my opinion should be subject to UK laws regardless of who owns the company or where the boat is registered.

Would you have this apply to foreign aircraft as well?

How is it that Brittany Ferries manage to survive with French registered boats and French crews, do they have different laws in France or is it that the French owned company has some morals.
BF have done this while seeing off competition from other companies including P&O.

Subsidies, pure and simple. BF have very strong connections to French farmers and regional government.

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[glenn2926]

I understand the way the system has been allowed to develop but the simple fact is that these ferries are operating out of UK ports and in my opinion should be subject to UK laws regardless of who owns the company or where the boat is registered.
How is it that Brittany Ferries manage to survive with French registered boats and French crews, do they have different laws in France or is it that the French owned company has some morals.
BF have done this while seeing off competition from other companies including P&O.

Edit: I realise that these ferries operate between the UK and other European ports so without getting into a B***** argument EU rules/laws should apply.

So by your reckoning we should insist on crews being paid at U.K. rates when the ships, boats come to British ports? Ok, maybe. Do you also think crews should be paid at say Indian rates when these same ships, boats go to Indian ports?
I’m not sure how your idea could possibly work.
The only way really to ensure fair rates of pay would be to make a worldwide maritime pay scale. That’s never going to happen so the best we have is maybe insisting on pay rates commensurate with pay in the country of registration. All this will do of course is move ship registration to the cheapest pay rate countries.

 

[2657]

Would you have this apply to foreign aircraft as well?

Subsidies, pure and simple. BF have very strong connections to French farmers and regional government.

Yes.

The French government made a one off subsidy to BF during the Covid crisis. The UK government did the same to several operators.

An article I found mentioned an EU investigation into BF subsidies in 1998, I couldn't find the outcome of that investigation but I do know that the EU has rules on subsidies.
The article also mentioned fruitless discussions that BF had with their main rival P&O to 'stop the damaging decline in ferry fares'.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I understand the way the system has been allowed to develop but the simple fact is that these ferries are operating out of UK ports and in my opinion should be subject to UK laws regardless of who owns the company or where the boat is registered.
How is it that Brittany Ferries manage to survive with French registered boats and French crews, do they have different laws in France or is it that the French owned company has some morals.
BF have done this while seeing off competition from other companies including P&O.

Edit: I realise that these ferries operate between the UK and other European ports so without getting into a B***** argument EU rules/laws should apply.

The ships are subject to UK laws and oversight in the same way that the French and Dutch ships are. As far as I know, the only country that will not allow foreign flagged ships to trade coastally is the protectionist USA with their Jones Act and other associated legislation. Brittany Ferries and working under the French labour laws with their militant unions are heavily subsidised by the French government, both in transparent and not so transparent ways plus a recent €45 million bailout. It is not a level playing field by any means; again, I am not trying to defend P&O’s reprehensible act but trying to see the situation clearly as I have been, unfortunately, on both sides of the manning costs fence.

P.S. Protectionism is something that is ultimately bad for the economy but there has to be a balance between that and totally free trade. Almost impossible to get right……. In my view, if the government changed the laws and insisted on UK manned Ships, it would have a huge knock on effect on other local shipping trade (with has been going on for centuries) plus the state subsidised ferries would be constantly going cap in hand for more and more money. Witness the new CalMac ferry construction fiasco as a slightly left field example, or indeed TFL tube trains…..

 

[2657]

So by your reckoning we should insist on crews being paid at U.K. rates when the ships, boats come to British ports? Ok, maybe. Do you also think crews should be paid at say Indian rates when these same ships, boats go to Indian ports?
I’m not sure how your idea could possibly work.
The only way really to ensure fair rates of pay would be to make a worldwide maritime pay scale. That’s never going to happen so the best we have is maybe insisting on pay rates commensurate with pay in the country of registration. All this will do of course is move ship registration to the cheapest pay rate countries.

These ferries operate between European countries, did you read my edit.
As I understand it your last paragraph describes the status quo.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

The only way really to ensure fair rates of pay would be to make a worldwide maritime pay scale. That’s never going to happen so the best we have is maybe insisting on pay rates commensurate with pay in the country of registration. All this will do of course is move ship registration to the cheapest pay rate countries.

There already is a global maritime pay scale as agreed with the United Nations. Have a look a few posts above. Effectively people do move their registration to cheaper countries on a wider and more general basis, but this actually does not work as they would like due to 1) crew competence standards - cheap is not always good on a ship worth many millions. 2) Port State Control inspections which go through everything and visitors to UK are regularly prohibited from sailing for violations. 3) Compliance - most ships that are chartered are thoroughly vetted before charter and there are some strict standards around this.

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[DuxDeluxe]

Yes.

The French government made a one off subsidy to BF during the Covid crisis. The UK government did the same to several operators.

An article I found mentioned an EU investigation into BF subsidies in 1998, I couldn't find the outcome of that investigation but I do know that the EU has rules on subsidies.
The article also mentioned fruitless discussions that BF had with their main rival P&O to 'stop the damaging decline in ferry fares'.

As above the French ignored EU rules and gave them a (very necessary) €45M payment last year - I used to have Brittany Ferries as a client and like most French shipping companies there is a lot of “help” going on. As before, it is not by any means a level playing field

 

[The Wino]

The ships are subject to UK laws and oversight in the same way that the French and Dutch ships are. As far as I know, the only country that will not allow foreign flagged ships to trade coastally is the protectionist USA with their Jones Act and other associated legislation. Brittany Ferries and working under the French labour laws with their militant unions are heavily subsidised by the French government, both in transparent and not so transparent ways plus a recent €45 million bailout. It is not a level playing field by any means; again, I am not trying to defend P&O’s reprehensible act but trying to see the situation clearly as I have been, unfortunately, on both sides of the manning costs fence.

P.S. Protectionism is something that is ultimately bad for the economy but there has to be a balance between that and totally free trade. Almost impossible to get right……. In my view, if the government changed the laws and insisted on UK manned Ships, it would have a huge knock on effect on other local shipping trade (with has been going on for centuries) plus the state subsidised ferries would be constantly going cap in hand for more and more money. Witness the new CalMac ferry construction fiasco as a slightly left field example, or indeed TFL tube trains…..

I agree that protectionism is a difficult balance but do wonder if some very wealthy people have persuaded poor people that tariff free trade is a really good thing as they can then buy cheaper imported food and forgotten to mention it also means that workers in the UK are likely to either have to compete on world labour costs or lose a lot of our economy.

 

[Coolcats]

These ferries operate between European countries, did you read my edit.
As I understand it your last paragraph describes the status quo.

Spot on, if staff sail between European countries it is reasonable that they are paid and have benefits at a similar rate to land based personal in the country they are resident and TAX and NI paid to the countries they will retire in.

Fire and re-hire is both lazy and should be illegal, I know of one senior exec who went to the staff explained the difficulties the company was experiencing and could go out of business but rather than make redundancies he asked the staff where they saw cost savings and how they may help return the company to profitability every one got stuck in to the project, even in dispatch they said 'Stop buying labels and give us an ink pad and a stamp', there was a reduction in salaries across the board the MD and directors took a bigger cut than the staff. When they implemented all the changes the company was solvent then went on to increase business and increase the staff pay.

It comes down to a fair days pay for a fair days work, fire and re-hire should be made illegal

 

[Ivory55]

I agree that protectionism is a difficult balance but do wonder if some very wealthy people have persuaded poor people that tariff free trade is a really good thing as they can then buy cheaper imported food and forgotten to mention it also means that workers in the UK are likely to either have to compete on would labour costs or lose a lot of our economy.

Well the other system that we must not mention did not work either, only if you want access to cheap truck drivers

 

[The Wino]

Well the other system that we must not mention did not work either, only if you want access to cheap truck drivers

Thats where I disagree. I think we are still on world terms pretty well off and quite likely have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. We did have competition from workers from poorer countries who found even low wages here attractive. We are now competing with workers and goods produced in ways and parts of the world we can never compete with. The well off think its great especially if they can remove all other regulations in fact that was openly said that,"we" would not realise the benefits fully of free trade while regulations remain.

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[DuxDeluxe]

I agree that protectionism is a difficult balance but do wonder if some very wealthy people have persuaded poor people that tariff free trade is a really good thing as they can then buy cheaper imported food and forgotten to mention it also means that workers in the UK are likely to either have to compete on world labour costs or lose a lot of our economy.

Quite agree - look to USA for the biggest example of that

 

[The Wino]

Quite agree - look to USA for the biggest example of that

I was really shocked once when I saw a report on a charity mission by vision aid overseas to a place where poor people were unable to access eyecare it was in the States

 

[gus-lopez]

Personally I think they are on dodgy ground as the ships only sail between the Uk & europe therefore can't really decide that the 'crew' are actually residents of another country whereby the pay rates , tax & NI rates are far lower.
A similar situation was resolved in favour of the french via the EU when O'leary tried to say that all his french staff at the RyanAir operating centre in Marseilles came under cheaper irish tax ,NI & labour laws.
I cannot see any difference in the two situations ?

Additionally & in light of the curremy goings on around europe the Uk governement should be looking to ensure continuity of supply for the Uk food, energy & fuel industries & if necessary nationalise the boats to ensure that they cannot be held to ransom yet again.

 

[The Wino]

P&O Ferries sackings: Change in law signed off by Chris Grayling meant P&O didn't need to tell govt, maritime lawyer says

While senior government officials have claimed that the sacking of 800 workers by P&O Ferries was illegal, a specialist in maritime law argues that is incorrect.

news.sky.com

Looks like the current government made the sacking easier.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

P&O Ferries sackings: Change in law signed off by Chris Grayling meant P&O didn't need to tell govt, maritime lawyer says

While senior government officials have claimed that the sacking of 800 workers by P&O Ferries was illegal, a specialist in maritime law argues that is incorrect.

news.sky.com

Looks like the current government made the sacking easier.

The only change was the obligation of who to inform. Inform, not consult or gain permission. I don't think it changed anything to be honest

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[DuxDeluxe]

Personally I think they are on dodgy ground as the ships only sail between the Uk & europe therefore can't really decide that the 'crew' are actually residents of another country whereby the pay rates , tax & NI rates are far lower.
A similar situation was resolved in favour of the french via the EU when O'leary tried to say that all his french staff at the RyanAir operating centre in Marseilles came under cheaper irish tax ,NI & labour laws.
I cannot see any difference in the two situations ?

Additionally & in light of the curremy goings on around europe the Uk governement should be looking to ensure continuity of supply for the Uk food, energy & fuel industries & if necessary nationalise the boats to ensure that they cannot be held to ransom yet again.

Aircrew are shore based. Seafarers are ship based on a ship not registered in UK. That is a huge difference

 

[cyberyacht]

If DPW save £10M on staff costs, it's going to make little difference to their alleged £100M annual operating loss. Expect stale bread sandwiches and watered down beer in the restaurant?

 

[DuxDeluxe]

If DPW save £10M on staff costs, it's going to make little difference to their alleged £100M annual operating loss. Expect stale bread sandwiches and watered down beer in the restaurant?

It is much, much more than £10m - if you go back a page or two, then you can see.

 

[The Wino]

The only change was the obligation of who to inform. Inform, not consult or gain permission. I don't think it changed anything to be honest

It probably didn't apart from there would have been a heads up before action took place.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

It probably didn't apart from there would have been a heads up before action took place.

They did inform them in advance - albeit the day before. As I said, it makes zero difference anyway

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