Interesting EV fuel cost example

[PaulyP]

But electricity for cars is the same as powers the TV. They won’t tax electricity to charge everyone, but they will find a different form of road funding.

The car needs to be plugged into a charger so they will know how much you are using as opposed to the other electric use around the house.

 

[Tombola]

But electricity for cars is the same as powers the TV. They won’t tax electricity to charge everyone, but they will find a different form of road funding.

It will be a tax one way or tother. Either at source or direct. Lots of theories how and when but it will be done.

 

[PaulyP]

I’m getting one of the hybrids

 

[Gromett]

I'd expect that. Anyone who doesn't is dreaming.

I must be a dreamer then. I cannot see the government taxing electric any more than it already is.
It is a mixed use energy source. Used for heating, lighting, computers, entertainment as well as transport.
They wouldn't be able to separate out the tax. If you think the Poll Tax riots were bad, try taxing electric which would penalise the poorest the hardest. I cannot imagine any government being stupid enough to do that.

A mileage tax though. That would be viable and probably welcomed by most people.

 

[Coolcats]

That's not good; almost all pension funds are partly invested in the major oil companies.

Pension funds have been divesting from fossil fuel investments. Have no idea how much is left to divest but in the main they keep ahead of the game.

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[Coolcats]

Another interesting take on EV’s is from Toyota.

Toyota Calls On Science To Tell EV-Only Extremists That They’re Wrong​

whilst some are confident that there is enough lithium for all Toyota have their doubts.

“So Toyota isn’t anti-EV, but it believes in a diversified approach and it’s predicting a global shortage of lithium, which is the most important material used in today’s lithium-ion batteries found in pure EVs, hybrids, and plug-in hybrids.”


From reading comments on MHF and other sites it does seem that many would also take this view.

 

[Coolcats]

I must be a dreamer then. I cannot see the government taxing electric any more than it already is.
It is a mixed use energy source. Used for heating, lighting, computers, entertainment as well as transport.
They wouldn't be able to separate out the tax. If you think the Poll Tax riots were bad, try taxing electric which would penalise the poorest the hardest. I cannot imagine any government being stupid enough to do that.

A mileage tax though. That would be viable and probably welcomed by most people.

I agree I do not think the government will currently tax electricity any more than it is the energy companies are doing a pretty good job already and boosting profits and dividends to an eye watering level

 

[Wack]

I agree I do not think the government will currently tax electricity any more than it is the energy companies are doing a pretty good job already and boosting profits and dividends to an eye watering level

The tax energy companies pay will be buttons compared to the Duty and vat lost from the sale of fossil fuels, last time I read details it was over 70% tax, as diesel is over £8 a gallon that's a huge number that'll need making up at some point

 

[MichaelT]

 

[Wh05apk]

View attachment 712794

Here we go again, this picture comes out every few months.
At the moment tesla don't build a van, so what do you expect them to use?

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[Coolcats]

Here we go again, this picture comes out every few months.
At the moment tesla don't build a van, so what do you expect them to use?

ID Buz or maybe a vw e-transporter, Fiat etc

 

[Wh05apk]

ID Buz or maybe a vw e-transporter, Fiat etc

Why would they use (and endorse?) another manufacturers EV with poor range and re-charging ability?

When Tesla build a van, it will have an acceptable range and will be able to recharge quickly at Tesla's network of superchargers.

 

[Dave7]

If it was all about the environment things could be done
Replace forests that are ripped down
Stop the use of private yachts and planes
Have limits on the size of engines and so on
As an extreme they could limit the amount of children that people could have
Diesel vehicles are picked on and the price of diesel is higher yet some diesel’s are cheap to tax due to their ratings
A lot of this is just about making money
If electric was the way forward then cars should be cheaper so more people have them but instead it’s about the bosses getting richer
I read fuel costs are back to what they were yet we just get more rises

 

[brynric]

The car needs to be plugged into a charger so they will know how much you are using as opposed to the other electric use around the house.

I’m sure that will be possible in time but rollout will be very slow. Road charging on the other hand is already pretty common in many European countries already.

 

[Coolcats]

Why would they use (and endorse?) another manufacturers EV with poor range and re-charging ability?

When Tesla build a van, it will have an acceptable range and will be able to recharge quickly at Tesla's network of superchargers.

an EV is an EV is an EV

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[Wh05apk]

an EV is an EV is an EV

That shows how little you know.....

Ev's vary dramatically, some deserve the adverse comments being made. others don't.

My old I-pace although a great car, had poor efficiency, and only had a decent range due to a large battery, public charging was "stressful" on the few occasions I needed it, I now have a Tesla M3 efficiency is about 60% better, but when I have done long trips being able to use Tesla superchargers has removed any stress or hassle.

 

[Coolcats]

Why would they use (and endorse?) another manufacturers EV with poor range and re-charging ability?

When Tesla build a van, it will have an acceptable range and will be able to recharge quickly at Tesla's network of superchargers.

I don’t want to burst your Tesla bubble but….

The electric cars with the best real-world range​

The ID Buz will do around 250 miles so not shabby for a local support van

 

[Wh05apk]

I don’t want to burst your Tesla bubble but….

The electric cars with the best real-world range​

The ID Buz will do around 250 miles so not shabby for a local support van

Not sure where they get their figures from, I had the I-pace and about 240 miles was realistic not the 253 they say, the Tesla M3 SR they quote at 181 miles?!! I can easily get 230-240 even this time of year.

The Id Buzz has an official range of about 250miles but real world range is far lower especially this time of year, and is still reliant on using sparsely located slow public chargers, Electrifying tested is and found about 150-190 miles was realistic! :
My Tesla has a WLTP range of 305, but this time of year 230-240 miles and 270+ in summer is realistic

 

[Coolcats]

That shows how little you know.....

Ev's vary dramatically, some deserve the adverse comments being made. others don't.

My old I-pace although a great car, had poor efficiency, and only had a decent range due to a large battery, public charging was "stressful" on the few occasions I needed it, I now have a Tesla M3 efficiency is about 60% better, but when I have done long trips being able to use Tesla superchargers has removed any stress or hassle.

Of course you have a Tesla it does not make other manufactures EV’s inferior. The BMW I3 is a cracking small car bristling with technology or how about the Lotus Evija what a cracking machine that is. One thing is that all technology is intermediate technology and Tesla will have more competition over the next few years than can be imagined by us mortals

 

[Wh05apk]

Of course you have a Tesla it does not make other manufactures EV’s inferior. The BMW I3 is a cracking small car bristling with technology or how about the Lotus Evija what a cracking machine that is. One thing is that all technology is intermediate technology and Tesla will have more competition over the next few years than can be imagined by us mortals

I am not saying the tesla is superior, the cars you mentioned are both good cars, not sure about the Lotus, as not seen any reviews yet, but the BMW has a low range of about 120 miles and again relies on "public" chargers. Only Tesla's currently have full access to the entire supercharger network, without that access, I would not regularly want to use any EV if it meant charging away from home.

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[Sandancers]

I must be a dreamer then. I cannot see the government taxing electric any more than it already is.
It is a mixed use energy source. Used for heating, lighting, computers, entertainment as well as transport.
They wouldn't be able to separate out the tax. If you think the Poll Tax riots were bad, try taxing electric which would penalise the poorest the hardest. I cannot imagine any government being stupid enough to do that.

A mileage tax though. That would be viable and probably welcomed by most people.

How easy it would be to put a separate "smart electric meter" in each home fast charger for EVs. Then the company you buy electricity from could send you two bills, domestic and vehicle.

 

[gus-lopez]

Too much time on your hands bonny lad!

?? Give us a clue?

A mileage tax though. That would be viable and probably welcomed by most people.

Yes as long as any type of road tax is completely removed for all vehicles.

Another interesting take on EV’s is from Toyota.

Toyota Calls On Science To Tell EV-Only Extremists That They’re Wrong​

whilst some are confident that there is enough lithium for all Toyota have their doubts.

“So Toyota isn’t anti-EV, but it believes in a diversified approach and it’s predicting a global shortage of lithium, which is the most important material used in today’s lithium-ion batteries found in pure EVs, hybrids, and plug-in hybrids.”


From reading comments on MHF and other sites it does seem that many would also take this view.

A balanced view but unfortunately pressure was put on the chairman ,Toyoda, to step down as he was regarded as hindering Toyotas position as no,1 in the world .

At the moment tesla don't build a van, so what do you expect them to use?

like others do , a car with the rear interior stripped out ,side windows , blanked & usable for equipment & tool storage.

Road charging on the other hand is already pretty common in many European countries already.

Yes ,like France, who do not have any road tax. You can't expect the scum uk politicians to give it up .they haven't managed to do so so far even after suggesting it moved on to fuel tax.they are too greedy to be allowed to breathe.

 

[gus-lopez]

How easy it would be to put a separate "smart electric meter" in each home fast charger for EVs. Then the company you buy electricity from could send you two bills, domestic and vehicle.

& what stops me plugging in my 3 pin plug in the domestic supply? & how would they know as I use domestic supply to run welders from now?

 

[Coolcats]

I am not saying the tesla is superior, the cars you mentioned are both good cars, not sure about the Lotus, as not seen any reviews yet, but the BMW has a low range of about 120 miles and again relies on "public" chargers. Only Tesla's currently have full access to the entire supercharger network, without that access, I would not regularly want to use any EV if it meant charging away from home.

I do get what you are saying for some a EV with a smaller range may be fine for many individuals the majority of driving they do 3-15 mile commute for example and sounds like you drive a lot of miles and your EV suits your needs.

The point of the original post was a reporter who compared an EV with driving a lot of miles, home charge at the beginning and various chargers and thier costs which in the end made the journey more expensive compared to a diesel or petrol equivalent. The article in someways supports views on here that the costs of an EV including its upfront cost bares little relation to the savings that some claim are to be made. For some a new car may not be an issue they will buy one every 3 years for others it’s a large capital investment that takes years to recover from add to that the reporters notes it really does not make an EV a savings nirvana and for some would actually cost more.

 

[Coolcats]

?? Give us a clue?

Yes as long as any type of road tax is completely removed for all vehicles.

A balanced view but unfortunately pressure was put on the chairman ,Toyoda, to step down as he was regarded as hindering Toyotas position as no,1 in the world .

like others do , a car with the rear interior stripped out ,side windows , blanked & usable for equipment & tool storage.

Yes ,like France, who do not have any road tax. You can't expect the scum uk politicians to give it up .they haven't managed to do so so far even after suggesting it moved on to fuel tax.they are too greedy to be allowed to breathe.

Lol you have had your weetabix this morning good responses

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[SpeedyDux]

I am not saying the tesla is superior, the cars you mentioned are both good cars, not sure about the Lotus, as not seen any reviews yet, but the BMW has a low range of about 120 miles and again relies on "public" chargers. Only Tesla's currently have full access to the entire supercharger network, without that access, I would not regularly want to use any EV if it meant charging away from home.

The fundamental range issue - a small EV like the BMW I3 can't accommodate a big battery. Only a much heavier, expensive EV can do long range.

That's the constraint for mass adoption of EVs at the present level of battery technology.

 

[Coolcats]

The fundamental range issue - a small EV like the BMW I3 can't accommodate a big battery. Only a much heavier, expensive EV can do long range.

That's the constraint for mass adoption of EVs at the present level of battery technology.

For the majority of my wife’s use this is an ideal vehicle, most of her driving is within that range, so we could live comfortably with one and use mine for longer journeys

 

[Sandancers]

& what stops me plugging in my 3 pin plug in the domestic supply? & how would they know as I use domestic supply to run welders from now?

Perhaps future cars will accept a fast charge only ? So say the car is designed to suck 35 amps initially from the supply, that would trip out any domestic ring circuit. I did say putting the extra meter in "fast chargers".

 

[Wh05apk]

I do get what you are saying for some a EV with a smaller range may be fine for many individuals the majority of driving they do 3-15 mile commute for example and sounds like you drive a lot of miles and your EV suits your needs.

The point of the original post was a reporter who compared an EV with driving a lot of miles, home charge at the beginning and various chargers and thier costs which in the end made the journey more expensive compared to a diesel or petrol equivalent. The article in someways supports views on here that the costs of an EV including its upfront cost bares little relation to the savings that some claim are to be made. For some a new car may not be an issue they will buy one every 3 years for others it’s a large capital investment that takes years to recover from add to that the reporters notes it really does not make an EV a savings nirvana and for some would actually cost more.

But the original post about the reporter finding it more expensive and inconvenient was to totally unrealistic, for me even if I had to rely on Tesla superchargers which I don't) these are currently around 45p per Kw, which for me equates to about 10p a mile, assuming diesel at about £1.70 per litre I would need to get about 77mpg to break even.

Although there are now some very good EV's around I would not currently consider any other EV apart from Tesla if I needed to publicly charge as the charging network generally is pathetic.

With regards purchase cost, for smaller cars there is still a big difference, but larger cars are now comparable - a BMW 320d and Tesla M3 RWD are within £1,000 of each other, these will be trickling down to the used market, and smaller cheaper cars will come to the market.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Another interesting take on EV’s is from Toyota.

Toyota Calls On Science To Tell EV-Only Extremists That They’re Wrong​

whilst some are confident that there is enough lithium for all Toyota have their doubts.

“So Toyota isn’t anti-EV, but it believes in a diversified approach and it’s predicting a global shortage of lithium, which is the most important material used in today’s lithium-ion batteries found in pure EVs, hybrids, and plug-in hybrids.”


From reading comments on MHF and other sites it does seem that many would also take this view.

2 points. Toyota recognises that after 2030 there will be a strong demand for ICE vehicles in all the countries where only lip service is being paid to pledges made at COP26 etc. If big names like Toyota, that has a global reputation for making ultra-reliable diesel 4x4s abandon that market, not only are they trashing valuable goodwill but also leaving that ICE market wide open to competitors in India and China.

Toyota also makes a strong environmental scientific case for self-charging hybrids with low CO2 emissions as a practical alternative to 100% EVs.

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