Interesting EV fuel cost example

[PaulyP]

I quoted worst scenario. But even at 50 to 70 miles that would cover most driving for most people. My PHEV only does 19 miles on baattery and I get 90%+ of my driving within that range with air con and heated seats on. Today you buy an EV with a real world range of 250 miles and in 10 years it will still do over 200.

Just wondering whether you have owned an EV or is it just what you have read? Yes they're currently pricey and not for everyone but you can't damn them outright.

When it comes down to it there are lots of people who have ev’s and love them, there are more, at the moment, who would prefer to stick with diesel/petrol and are against ev’s as they feel they are being forced to go that way, so it’s best that people do what they wan5 to do whilst we still have a choice. I think a lot of people, including myself, are not against ev’s but are not yet convinced by price, infrastructure and the safety aspect of them, maybe in 10 years (if I’m still around).

 

[Folkranger]

When Shell just announced a profit of £58 Bn I tend to think that competition must have been on strike. Energy crisis? What energy crisis.

These multinational conglomerates (and social media giants) are becoming more powerful than many governments and they know it.

I wouldn't try to defend Shell or any other company. But I still contend that in the long haul, competion prevails. There can be no competition when there is a supply shortage as we've seen. It's a crime that governments can't exercise proper taxes over international boundrys.

 

[Folkranger]

When it comes down to it there are lots of people who have ev’s and love them, there are more, at the moment, who would prefer to stick with diesel/petrol and are against ev’s as they feel they are being forced to go that way, so it’s best that people do what they wan5 to do whilst we still have a choice. I think a lot of people, including myself, are not against ev’s but are not yet convinced by price, infrastructure and the safety aspect of them, maybe in 10 years (if I’m still around).

I have a merc PHEV that suits me. My wife has a VW id3. Neither of which we could justify on cost grounds but we like nice things and can afford them.

 

[sussexlad]

I assume your brother has off-road parking then to allow you to charge…..?

Yes, I was able to connect to a 3 pin plug in his garage.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Oh, and Ill leave this here a sec.
and in the famous words of Sesame street, One of these things is not like the other ones....can you guess which one it is ???
What are engine bo locks made of again ! exhausts anyone, pass me some clutch metal will ya, oh and dont forget them petrol tanks, discs, carbs, manifolds, gears and a box to hold them, yadda, yadda, yadda.
What more efficient ? naaaah.

View attachment 712433

I'm astonished by the small quantity of copper. To achieve Net Zero that won't be nearly enough.

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[enark]

You obviously haven’t read any of the report.

Don’t be daft, if course ICE vehicles have a carbon foot print.

The point in the report is that the carbon foot print cost of making an EV is so much higher than an ICE vehicle and is only recouped if it’s kept in the road for much longer than the average bod keeps a car nowadays so be prepared to keep a car for life.

Carry on keeping your head in the sand and accept everything without question.

I understand the whole life carbon of an EV is 67% of an ICE.

agree any rush to change over misses the point, bit like the rapid dieselisation of our railways, scrapping near new steam locomotives….um?

 

[MichaelT]

I think you will find that they are not necessarily wanting big pay rises but at least the cost of living rises as they are often offered less than the cost of living which in affect is a pay cut, also it’s more about conditions than money, and as I said politicians will always find the money to pay themselves, which also comes from our pockets, choice between the NHS and politicians! I know who I would give a big rise to.

I was not saying they should or should not get a rise but replying to the person who was moaning about companies making profits. And by the way politicians do not set their pay it is done by an independent body and the NHS is just a money pit that needs drastic reforms which should ease the situation staff find themselves in. Just chucking more money will not solve the problems.

 

[autorouter]

I'm not generally in favour of price fixing but in the case of electricity and gas think that there should be a peg to the price of crude.

Gas, OK, but why electricity? Some days most of our electricity comes from wind, solar and nuclear. Only a very small proportion comes from coal and oil, and a decreasing amount from gas turbines.

 

[autorouter]

It's a crime that governments can't exercise proper taxes over international boundrys.

I think it's won't, not can't. Which small island nation decided to not join in the international effort to legislate so that multinationals pay more tax? I won't name and shame, but its initials are U and K.

 

[autorouter]

I'm astonished by the small quantity of copper. To achieve Net Zero that won't be nearly enough.

Remember this is only the metal that is mined. A huge amount is recycled. For example I believe 99% of the lead in lead-acid batteries is recycled. Copper is more valuable than iron, so more profitable to recycle it.

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[jongood]

I think it's won't, not can't. Which small island nation decided to not join in the international effort to legislate so that multinationals pay more tax? I won't name and shame, but its initials are U and K.

yebbut - basically because to do so curtails competition of countries also.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Remember this is only the metal that is mined. A huge amount is recycled. For example I believe 99% of the lead in lead-acid batteries is recycled. Copper is more valuable than iron, so more profitable to recycle it.

The background being that only 20% of the current total UK energy consumption is electricity. The other 80% is all fossil fuel based. Add the gas used to generate about 50% of the current electricity demand and in total the UK's dependency on fossil fuel is about 90%.

If our government wants us to reach 100% zero emissions, by converting everything including transport, industry, domestic heating etc from fossil fuel energy to electricity, while at the same time maintaining our current living standards, we must upgrade not only the renewable and nuclear generation capacity by a factor of about 4 within a few decades, but alongside that the whole transmission network down from power stations to individual street level has to be upgraded by a corresponding factor. That massive change requires a correspondingly massive increase in the amount of available copper, because apart from gold there is no better conductor. Aluminium (a fairly good conductor) might fill some of the shortfall, but copper is best. Where is it all going to come from? What will this do to copper prices on the metal exchanges?

That's only for the UK. Multiply that by the requirements of all developed and developing countries if they are going to reach zero emissions, and you start to see that the global copper supply from both mining and recycling falls far short of requirements. In previous threads it has been argued that somehow market forces will result in more investment in mining copper to meet such increased demand. I can't see how that will be done in the short timescales we are looking at. Copper is going to be a bottleneck. The numpties planning our green future don't appear to realise this fundamental constraint even exists. Or, their real plan for us is somewhat different to what they admit publicly. They understand that the growth in demand for electricity must be constrained somehow, via "consumer transformation" whether we like it or not.

You can see clearly where the Net Zero and abolute zero plan for climate change mitigation is heading. The "sustainable" alternative to our current fossil fuel-based affluent lifestyle is the WEF plan for ordinary people to be moved into cities, where they will live in pods and eat bugburgers. Everthing they need will be within a 15 minute walking distance, so no need for travel outside that 15 minute zone. In fact they won't be allowed to. All their spending will be controlled using CBDC and social credits. Much of this was repeated recently in Davos where Klaus Schwab made his annual speech to WEF members and delegates. It isn't a conspiracy theory - it is out in the open, and has been for years. It might not be accomplished in my lifetime even though the WEF deadline is 2030 and they are very serious about this.

It's for your own good. Suck it up. Enjoy your cars, including EVs, and motorhomes while you are still allowed to.

 

[Tombola]

The background being that only 20% of the current total UK energy consumption is electricity. The other 80% is all fossil fuel based. Add the gas used to generate about 50% of the current electricity demand and in total the UK's dependency on fossil fuel is about 90%.

If our government wants us to reach 100% zero emissions, by converting everything including transport, industry, domestic heating etc from fossil fuel energy to electricity, while at the same time maintaining our current living standards, we must upgrade not only the renewable and nuclear generation capacity by a factor of about 4 within a few decades, but alongside that the whole transmission network down from power stations to individual street level has to be upgraded by a corresponding factor. That massive change requires a correspondingly massive increase in the amount of available copper, because apart from gold there is no better conductor. Aluminium (a fairly good conductor) might fill some of the shortfall, but copper is best. Where is it all going to come from? What will this do to copper prices on the metal exchanges?

That's only for the UK. Multiply that by the requirements of all developed and developing countries if they are going to reach zero emissions, and you start to see that the global copper supply from both mining and recycling falls far short of requirements. In previous threads it has been argued that somehow market forces will result in more investment in mining copper to meet such increased demand. I can't see how that will be done in the short timescales we are looking at. Copper is going to be a bottleneck. The numpties planning our green future don't appear to realise this fundamental constraint even exists. Or, their real plan for us is somewhat different to what they admit publicly. They understand that the growth in demand for electricity must be constrained somehow, via "consumer transformation" whether we like it or not.

You can see clearly where the Net Zero and abolute zero plan for climate change mitigation is heading. The "sustainable" alternative to our current fossil fuel-based affluent lifestyle is the WEF plan for ordinary people to be moved into cities, where they will live in pods and eat bugburgers. Everthing they need will be within a 15 minute walking distance, so no need for travel outside that 15 minute zone. In fact they won't be allowed to. All their spending will be controlled using CBDC and social credits. Much of this was repeated recently in Davos where Klaus Schwab made his annual speech to WEF members and delegates. It isn't a conspiracy theory - it is out in the open, and has been for years. It might not be accomplished in my lifetime even though the WEF deadline is 2030 and they are very serious about this.

It's for your own good. Suck it up. Enjoy your cars, including EVs, and motorhomes while you are still allowed to.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought we were up to almost 50% from renewables now

 

[SpeedyDux]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought we were up to almost 50% from renewables now

Only 50% of that 20% we consume as electricity.

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

They are quiet,

Prefer this sound

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[Tombola]

Am I following the wrong data posts ?

 

[SpeedyDux]

Prefer this sound

Interesting, but if I had a Ferrari I would warm it up before revving the nuts off it.

My taste is more rumbly V8s than screaming V12s.

 

[Folkranger]

Prefer this sound

Horses for courses. I like to hear my music.

 

[Folkranger]

I think it's won't, not can't. Which small island nation decided to not join in the international effort to legislate so that multinationals pay more tax? I won't name and shame, but its initials are U and K.

Bit of both, truth be told.

 

[Folkranger]

The background being that only 20% of the current total UK energy consumption is electricity. The other 80% is all fossil fuel based. Add the gas used to generate about 50% of the current electricity demand and in total the UK's dependency on fossil fuel is about 90%.

If our government wants us to reach 100% zero emissions, by converting everything including transport, industry, domestic heating etc from fossil fuel energy to electricity, while at the same time maintaining our current living standards, we must upgrade not only the renewable and nuclear generation capacity by a factor of about 4 within a few decades, but alongside that the whole transmission network down from power stations to individual street level has to be upgraded by a corresponding factor. That massive change requires a correspondingly massive increase in the amount of available copper, because apart from gold there is no better conductor. Aluminium (a fairly good conductor) might fill some of the shortfall, but copper is best. Where is it all going to come from? What will this do to copper prices on the metal exchanges?

That's only for the UK. Multiply that by the requirements of all developed and developing countries if they are going to reach zero emissions, and you start to see that the global copper supply from both mining and recycling falls far short of requirements. In previous threads it has been argued that somehow market forces will result in more investment in mining copper to meet such increased demand. I can't see how that will be done in the short timescales we are looking at. Copper is going to be a bottleneck. The numpties planning our green future don't appear to realise this fundamental constraint even exists. Or, their real plan for us is somewhat different to what they admit publicly. They understand that the growth in demand for electricity must be constrained somehow, via "consumer transformation" whether we like it or not.

You can see clearly where the Net Zero and abolute zero plan for climate change mitigation is heading. The "sustainable" alternative to our current fossil fuel-based affluent lifestyle is the WEF plan for ordinary people to be moved into cities, where they will live in pods and eat bugburgers. Everthing they need will be within a 15 minute walking distance, so no need for travel outside that 15 minute zone. In fact they won't be allowed to. All their spending will be controlled using CBDC and social credits. Much of this was repeated recently in Davos where Klaus Schwab made his annual speech to WEF members and delegates. It isn't a conspiracy theory - it is out in the open, and has been for years. It might not be accomplished in my lifetime even though the WEF deadline is 2030 and they are very serious about this.

It's for your own good. Suck it up. Enjoy your cars, including EVs, and motorhomes while you are still allowed to.

I'm sure you made some good points but my attention span tells me to find other things to do. No offence intended.

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[Abgs]

This may be worthy of discussion I have just copied and pasted from the article bt if this is the cost of EV's I suspect wakeup is going to be much slower.

Costs​

Fully charge at home before departure: approx £20; miles added: 180

Fast top-up at services on outward journey: £19.62; miles added: 55

Slow top-up in Bristol: £5 approx; miles added: 30

Super-fast top-up at services on return journey: £43.45; miles added: 126

Total: £88.07

Diesel cost for same journey: assuming 55mpg and 173.9p per litre, £50.24

Petrol cost for same journey: assuming 45mpg and 150.9p per litre, £53.28

We have a 5 year old 2 litre diesel estate car which has averaged 49 mpg over it's 45,000 of ownership. Mixed and motorway driving gets around 55 mpg so the same costs as the above example. £50.24

We also have a 4.7 litre, 430bhp, Twin turbo, V8 Merc which will easily do 30mpg on mixed motorway and city driving, so .... 58.65 litres * £150.9 = £88.50

but obviously ... I would apply man maths as I've just seen petrol @ 1.389 in Sainsbury's - so the V8 would only cost £81.46.

So for this hypothetical journey I should take the diesel ... well I would but my wife is probably out it somewhere ... so, I'm takin the V8, it's cheaper than the EV!

 

[autorouter]

yebbut - basically because to do so curtails competition of countries also.

You fell for that too? Look at them - it's not that big finance and multinationals are strongly influencing the Government, they ARE the government.

 

[gus-lopez]

I do believe the price cap is rising from £2500 for the average household to £3000 in April if this does happen it means the cost of energy is going up again.

I thought it was more than that? & why when gas prices ,on which elctricity cost is based , are falling?

Do you also know what IS a material that we are destroying almost one million times faster than it is formed?

That we use 50 thousand times more than lithium per year?

And that we cannot recycle?

Oil My friend...

so why is there more left in the ground now than there was when I was born?

A pensioner who always charges at home so he never goes anywhere in it and he's completely ignoring the £40,000 he spent on the car and the £32,000 on solar and batteries, deluded, even if there is a saving he'll be long dead before it arrives

He shouldn't be using any type of vehicle if only travelling short distances.

You clearly don't understand the nature of competition.

There is plenty at the moment in the Uk but they all appear to be operating price fixing?

Nothing wrong with taxes. they pay for all manner of things.
Pay your taxes I say

apart from vat, taxes on products & utilities taxes ,I haven't paid any for 22 years?

I assume your brother has off-road parking then to allow you to charge…..?

& I hope he paid him.

What's with the attitude? Who are they?

Ceo's business owners, politicians, etc.

Are you against all business?

only exploytative ones.

Do you think profit is a dirty word?

no, excessive profit is.

How do you think jobs get created?

if full time 40+ hrs/week =ok. part time 16/17,5 hrs = no. poncing off of "working tax credits"

Here is a nice diesel...20% efficient and an electric motor....90% efficient .

education.
diesel engines are 25>35% more efficient than petrol engines.
Diesel engines are theoretically 55>60% efficient .
electricity from the best power station tops out at 50>55% efficiency.

But even at 50 to 70 miles that would cover most driving for most people.

As above they should be walking or using other forms of public transport.

Average miles driven per car owner UK per day...
20. Fact.

as above , even worse. should be banned from the roads unless a minimum of 500+ miles per week being done along with no school runs.

There can be no competition when there is a supply shortage as we've seen.

what shortage? it appears to be only in the UK? or is it created by the suppliers?
here the cost of gas & electricity has been falling for months . Gas was capped by gov.es last october until end of spring but has fallen to 20% less than the capped price.
the gov.es fuel discount was removed with falling prices.

Gas, OK, but why electricity? Some days most of our electricity comes from wind, solar and nuclear. Only a very small proportion comes from coal and oil, and a decreasing amount from gas turbines.

So why is the UK electricity price based on the cost of gas?

 

[Spriddler]

Interestingly Shell are considering withdrawing from the UK utilities market because its not profitable enough for them. ....their share prices are not performing well at present.

That's not good; almost all pension funds are partly invested in the major oil companies.

 

[autorouter]

so why is there more left in the ground now than there was when I was born?

No, it's that there are now more 'known reserves'. The technology for analysing seismic data and detecting oil and gas fields has improved somewhat since you were born, I think. It was always there, it's now been discovered.

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[Folkranger]

I thought it was more than that? & why when gas prices ,on which elctricity cost is based , are falling?

so why is there more left in the ground now than there was when I was born?

He shouldn't be using any type of vehicle if only travelling short distances.

There is plenty at the moment in the Uk but they all appear to be operating price fixing?

apart from vat, taxes on products & utilities taxes ,I haven't paid any for 22 years?

& I hope he paid him.

Ceo's business owners, politicians, etc.

only exploytative ones.

no, excessive profit is.

if full time 40+ hrs/week =ok. part time 16/17,5 hrs = no. poncing off of "working tax credits"

education.
diesel engines are 25>35% more efficient than petrol engines.
Diesel engines are theoretically 55>60% efficient .
electricity from the best power station tops out at 50>55% efficiency.

As above they should be walking or using other forms of public transport.

as above , even worse. should be banned from the roads unless a minimum of 500+ miles per week being done along with no school runs.

what shortage? it appears to be only in the UK? or is it created by the suppliers?
here the cost of gas & electricity has been falling for months . Gas was capped by gov.es last october until end of spring but has fallen to 20% less than the capped price.
the gov.es fuel discount was removed with falling prices.

So why is the UK electricity price based on the cost of gas?

Too much time on your hands bonny lad!

 

[Gromett]

Would you buy a 5 or 10 year old EV in the future? Doubt it. The batteries will be on their way out and running below par.

If you buy a crap one then yes. Tesla have already proven the longevity of their batteries with real, hard data.
You may not like it. But a well engineered EV will have a battery that will outlast the vehicle and then go onto a 2nd life elsewhere.

Avoid crap ones like Nissan Leaf which die if you look at them wrong.

Given time all batteries will come up to a standard to compete with Tesla.

 

[Harrogate motorhomer]

All good for those that have the means to do it, but I suspect when the snake oil salesman have done their job don’t be surprised that the government start taxing electricity for EV like they do petrol/ diesel & then where are we?

 

[Tombola]

Taxing electricity for EV like they do petrol/ diesel & then where are we?

I'd expect that. Anyone who doesn't is dreaming.

 

[brynric]

I'd expect that. Anyone who doesn't is dreaming.

But electricity for cars is the same as powers the TV. They won’t tax electricity to charge everyone, but they will find a different form of road funding.

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