Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation

[DDJC]

I think on the EU it’s all part of the Vienna convention, which means it’s got to be road legal in the country of registration (U.K.) then it’s legal every where in the EU!
Now when you leave the EU that’s another matter!
Tread the globe has just been round the world for 5 years and 4 of them without tax or MOT

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it under the Vienna Convention.

This issue is about a vehicle tax issue and a licence coding issue, which is a national decision. The EU like to harmonise where possible, which is what this is all about. The UK harmonises some driving regs with the EU, and not others. Hopefully this is one that they do.

There are two parts about this which greatly interest me. Firstly the B1 weight extension to 4250kilos from March 2025, and secondly the bit about the DVLA not wanting to change the V5 should I want to up-plate from 3500 to 3850. Without an up-plate change on the V5, the French/German/Italian, etc, police will see you as overweight and nick you. I doubt a letter from some DVLA pencilneck will make any difference. Does anyone else have more info about this issue?

We already have the bigger tyres, the better brakes, and the semi air suspension on the rear axle, but we can't up-plate until the licence codes change to 4250kg. Also, our V5C has nearly no info on it at all. Nothing about axle weights. Should it have?

 

[DDJC]

Vienna? Means nothing to me

Genius!

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it.

This issue is about a vehicle tax issue and a licence coding issue, which is a national decision. The EU like to harmonise where possible, which is what this is all about. The UK harmonises some driving regs with the EU, and not others. Hopefully this is one that they do.

There are two parts about this which greatly interest me. Firstly the B1 weight extension to 4250kilos from March 2025, and secondly the bit about the DVLA not wanting to change the V5 should I want to up-plate from 3500 to 3850. Without an up-plate change on the V5, the French/German/Italian, etc, police will see you as overweight and nick you. I doubt a letter from some DVLA pencilneck will make any difference. Does anyone else have more info about this issue?

We already have the bigger tyres, the better brakes, and the semi air suspension on the rear axle, but we can't up-plate until the licence codes change to 4250kg. Also, our V5C has nearly no info on it at all. Nothing about axle weights. Should it have?
View attachment 960825

Which chassis are you on?

 

[DDJC]

Which chassis are you on?

Dunno. A non-AlKo one.
I do know it isn't AlKo because the semi air suspension fitted was a non-AlKo one.
And that 3850 is the max I can go to, confirmed by SV Tech.

 

[CAB96]

But likely their insurance is invalid so hopefully they won't run into you.

It's not a UK daft policy its a normal policy, for your insurance to be valid it has to be road legal in your own country so taxed, MOT (or home country equivalent) and anything else needed. How the authorities would check I'm not sure and probably not an issue till something happens.

As I understand it, third party insurance must still be upheld even if you invalidate the remainder.

So the victim of an incident should get their payout, it's just the insured party who won't get a new van.

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[PaulW2]

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it.

An old philosophical distinction rears its head? Everything is permitted unless explicitly forbidden, versus everything is forbidden unless explicitly permitted.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Dunno. A non-AlKo one.
I do know it isn't AlKo because the semi air suspension fitted was a non-AlKo one.
And that 3850 is the max I can go to, confirmed by SV Tech.

We’re on an ALKO AMC38L (light) chassis, think the heaviest we can go with rear air and uprated front springs is 4000, but that should do us.

 

[MichaelT]

We’re on an ALKO AMC38L (light) chassis, think the heaviest we can go with rear air and uprated front springs is 4000, but that should do us.

That's what we did.

 

[L' Hobo]

Please keep us posted as that is almost what I did except I used VWE to provide the weight change certification otherwise the same weight change as you. The DVLA have changed everything except the revenue weight and Taxation Class.

May I ask what vehicle category yours is in, N1 or M1? That may be the difference.

Can I ask, where on one's V5 one would find this written because I've looked on my 3.5 ton Ducato V5 and it's registered as
Motor Caravan ,
Taxation class PLG
, Revenue weight 400.0 kg UNLADEN
(I thought someone said, UNLADEN weights were NEVER shown?)
but no N1 or M1,?

Does this ONLY apply to vehicles heavier than 3500kgs?

 

[Northernraider]

But likely their insurance is invalid so hopefully they won't run into you.

It's not a UK daft policy its a normal policy, for your insurance to be valid it has to be road legal in your own country so taxed, MOT (or home country equivalent) and anything else needed. How the authorities would check I'm not sure and probably not an issue till something happens.

Nope I asked that question. Their insurance view is that as long as the vehicle is kept in roadworthy condition they are still fully covered. As the mot can only be done on the vehicle in the country it is registered in and they are doing a trip all the way to China over 2 years then they can't possibly have it motd.

As I said only the UK has this restriction. If it wasn't for mot I'd rarely be in the UK either.

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[Gellyneck]

Strange. Mine does not have anything next to vehicle category.

Mine is just Motor Caravan and nothing against item J vehicle category

Likewise on our V5 - Body type = Motor caravan - Taxation class = Private HGV - Revenue weight = 4250kg gross - Vehicle class = blank.

 

[L' Hobo]

Nope I asked that question. Their insurance view is that as long as the vehicle is kept in roadworthy condition they are still fully covered. As the mot can only be done on the vehicle in the country it is registered in and they are doing a trip all the way to China over 2 years then they can't possibly have it motd.

As I said only the UK has this restriction. If it wasn't for mot I'd rarely be in the UK either.

Many years ago when I was running artic trucks and thinking about keeping one in Zeebrugge, another truck &driver in Dover and letting the loaded trailor's go on the ferries 'unaccompanied' which was cheaper.

I was told that after a certain number of months (I think it was 6) and the vehicle not returning to UK, it would HAVE to be reregistered in that other country?

Perhaps rules have changed because this was before joining the EU, but I have had no notification of it?

 

[gus-lopez]

, and that the EU is likely to follow suit?

No ,the EU instigated it. Spain starts 4250kgs from 1st January

Problem is then I don't think your insurance is valid?

I fail to see how people do not understand insurance.It was invented to pay for third party costs. It can NEVER be invalid for those as that is the basis of what it is for.To pay for damage to things you hit.What it isn't/wouldn't be valid for is for your OWN damage. it was never intended for that

Not just that you are likely to get a pretty big fine

It actually usually works out far less than the tax that has been avoided

Do you need UK road tax to drive in the EU?

yes & mot & ins

But likely their insurance is invalid so hopefully they won't run into you.

As above that is what it is for, paying for your damage when they hit you.

It's not a UK daft policy its a normal policy, for your insurance to be valid it has to be road legal in your own country so taxed,

& mot

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it under the Vienna Convention.

This issue is about a vehicle tax issue and a licence coding issue, which is a national decision. The EU like to harmonise where possible, which is what this is all about. The UK harmonises some driving regs with the EU, and not others. Hopefully this is one that they do.

There are two parts about this which greatly interest me. Firstly the B1 weight extension to 4250kilos from March 2025, and secondly the bit about the DVLA not wanting to change the V5 should I want to up-plate from 3500 to 3850. Without an up-plate change on the V5, the French/German/Italian, etc, police will see you as overweight and nick you. I doubt a letter from some DVLA pencilneck will make any difference. Does anyone else have more info about this issue?

We already have the bigger tyres, the better brakes, and the semi air suspension on the rear axle, but we can't up-plate until the licence codes change to 4250kg. Also, our V5C has nearly no info on it at all. Nothing about axle weights. Should it have?
View attachment 960825

A clever person would infill,using the correct typeset,all the details that they require & dvla couldn't be rsed to print

 

[DDJC]

A clever person would infill,using the correct typeset,all the details that they require & dvla couldn't be rsed to print

Gus, that is forgery! While I have the PC graphical knowhow to do it, I wouldn't. I would just want the DVLA to do their job.

 

[poppycamper]

I belive that for insurance to be valid the vehicle has to be road worthy and taxed etc. Even when abroad you still have to be taxed and have MOT (if needed) for insurance to be valid. I may be wrong but can't be asked to read small print and certainly wouldn't take chance.

MichaelT , Think confusion here ( on my part)... because someone has me on ignore I am not getting the full picture to this thread anymore, how fustrating, so I am replying to you when you were actually replying to the person ignoring me so what I say then becomes irrelevant...
So please accept my apologies for my posts.. made in good faith but with only half the facts..

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[Bessy765]

We had SV tech do a paper up plate earlier this year from 4000kg to 4500kg. No mods were required. It on a 2019 Fiat heavy chassis. For various reasons I never got around to sending the paperwork of but am about to do so so 4000kgto 4500kg is that going to be affected by all this new gobbledygook?

 

[PaulW2]

I fail to see how people do not understand insurance.It was invented to pay for third party costs. It can NEVER be invalid for those as that is the basis of what it is for.To pay for damage to things you hit.What it isn't/wouldn't be valid for is for your OWN damage. it was never intended for that

That's an interesting point. Usually insurance (which is just pooling of risk) is taken out to protect us from the cost of claims which we can't afford, or where we prefer the premium to the contingent loss. But then usually we are not legally obliged to have insurance - it's something we decide for ourselves. In the case of vehicles we are obliged to have insurance, and the minimum insurance we are obliged to have is third party. So the legal requirement to have vehicles insured is indeed in order to protect others.

Of course the insurance we take out, from a private insurance company, is valid on its own contractual terms. If we violate those terms the insurer may decline to pay out. Even if it's only third party insurance.

 

[L' Hobo]

We had SV tech do a paper up plate earlier this year from 4000kg to 4500kg. No mods were required. It on a 2019 Fiat heavy chassis. For various reasons I never got around to sending the paperwork of but am about to do so so 4000kgto 4500kg is that going to be affected by all this new gobbledygook?

As you are already above the 3500kgs, it shouldn't but keep us informed please!

 

[MichaelT]

Can I ask, where on one's V5 one would find this written because I've looked on my 3.5 ton Ducato V5 and it's registered as
Motor Caravan ,
Taxation class PLG
, Revenue weight 400.0 kg UNLADEN
(I thought someone said, UNLADEN weights were NEVER shown?)
but no N1 or M1,?

Does this ONLY apply to vehicles heavier than 3500kgs?

I think it's on newer V5c, just looked at the last 2 MH we had, one 2016 the other 2019 and it's not on them but our new one from 2024 has it.

 

[Gellyneck]

I think it's on newer V5c, just looked at the last 2 MH we had, one 2016 the other 2019 and it's not on them but our new one from 2024 has it.

Could be, ours is a 2013.

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[rod_vw]

Can you please put a link to any official documentation regarding this as I cannot find a thing about it anywhere.

Minxy the gist of my part of this very diversified thread is as follows...

I have a van (LWB MAN TGE) that was purchased new by myself to be converted into a camper. That has duly been completed and eventually all the necessary hurdles jumped to have the V5C changed to 'Motor Caravan. note that as a van it was originally registered as Category N1.
Subsequently (and it has to be subsequently) the documentation was completed by VWE to up-plate it to 4200kg Max Gross weight and sent off to the DVLA. They changed everything on the V5C except the Revenue Weight which remains as 3500kg and the Taxation class which remains as PLG. The wording in post #102 is the last reply I had from the DVLA complaints department who are adamant that as a N1 original registered vehicle they cannot change that and thus not change the Revenue Weight and Taxation Class.

My argument with them is that Internationally N1 Category is for commercial vehicles up to 3500kg max gross weight and now that the vehicle is up-plated to 4200kg and recognised by them as such it cannot still be an N1 vehicle. They say that the law says they cannot change the Category of a vehicle once it has been registered etc. etc.

It may be that a vehicle originally registered as M1 (which has a higher max gross weight) can have the Taxation Class changed to PHG. Someone previously in this thread posts that this has been done in his case.

 

[Northernraider]

Many years ago when I was running artic trucks and thinking about keeping one in Zeebrugge, another truck &driver in Dover and letting the loaded trailor's go on the ferries 'unaccompanied' which was cheaper.

I was told that after a certain number of months (I think it was 6) and the vehicle not returning to UK, it would HAVE to be reregistered in that other country?

Perhaps rules have changed because this was before joining the EU, but I have had no notification of it?

If you're travelling through many countries you can't register it in everyone you travel in.

I did 9 months on.my last trip , 11 months on the first one In 2018

 

[L' Hobo]

Vienna Convention on Road Traffic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is what Townsend Thonsen threw at us when the Ferry my truck was on, hit the Dover dock still doing 4 knots. and refused to pay damages citing 'act of God's because, according to them, the controls had frozen!
I was lucky, except we couldn't exit the ferry due to loading door damaged (not good when your an owner driver and losing work) because my truck was secured further back but VimVoss, a Dutch company, had 2 nearly new artic smashed up!

 

[Neilh]

If you're travelling through many countries you can't register it in everyone you travel in.

I did 9 months on.my last trip , 11 months on the first one In 2018

That's a good point. So what if the vehicle were sorned, it's not on a UK road, so breakingno law

 

[L' Hobo]

If you're travelling through many countries you can't register it in everyone you travel in.

I did 9 months on.my last trip , 11 months on the first one In 2018

Then, I suppose, unless the law has changed, you must be driving illegally in all countries. Something you probably wouldn't have got away with in the old days of borders , you certainly would not if you had gone through Aachen.

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[PaulW2]

This is what Townsend Thonsen threw at us when the Ferry my truck was on, hit the Dover dock still doing 4 knots. and refused to pay damages citing 'act of God's because, according to them, the controls had frozen!
I was lucky, except we couldn't exit the ferry due to loading door damaged (not good when your an owner driver and losing work) because my truck was secured further back but VimVoss, a Dutch company, had 2 nearly new artic smashed up!

That's a very sneaky God they rely on...

 

[L' Hobo]

That's a good point. So what if the vehicle were sorned, it's not on a UK road, so breakingno law

Breaking all the laws as it cannot be used on the roads of Britain where it's registered!

 

[Northernraider]

Then, I suppose, unless the law has changed, you must be driving illegally in all countries. Something you probably wouldn't have got away with in the old days of borders , you certainly would not if you had gone through Aachen.

So insurance is required but I doubt they'd bother about road tax.

Mot ? Surely if its roadworthy


Uk insurance though will not admitted you that you are always covered by minimum requirement even if mot had expired

 

[L' Hobo]

That's a very sneaky God they rely on...

They got away with it because it was minus something and VERY COLD and no-one could prove otherwise.

I looked into it at the time and British Rail used the same convention! It's a can of worms!

 

[L' Hobo]

So insurance is required but I doubt they'd bother about road tax.

Mot ? Surely if its roadworthy


Uk insurance though will not admitted you that you are always covered by minimum requirement even if mot had expired

When I was in International business, ALL of my vehicles HAD to be legal to use in the country where they were registered.

It was legal to have the coach tacho an hour either way of national time in the country you were travelling in IF that was the time at home!
I once spent 3hrs trying to convince a Paris policeman in the Prefecture near Notre Dame of thisfact before his superior returned from his lunch break and agreed with me!

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