Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation

[Jonno1103]

Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation.

When up plating from 3500kg RFL will continue to be £365 pa. IT IS NOT being reduced to the PHG rate of £165.

Secondly, the DVLA are no longer changing the V5c to illustrate your new weight. The MTPLM will remain at 3500kg. This means that if your motorhome is detected on road installed Weight In Motion Sensors - WIMS, you WILL be classed as overweight. Currently there is no plan to prosecute although you will receive a letter advising you of weight limits etc.

This legislation is causing a great deal of harm to companies such as SvTech who are currently in constant communication with HMG and it is fully expected to be escalated and discussed on the floor in the House of Commons.

However, one of the reasons why in the short term this is in force is due to the EU's 4th directive and once in place will mean that RFL will illustrate the new entry weight limit. Vans & Moho's will need to be over 4250kg in order to qualify for the reduced RFL.

The Fourth Directive...

The EU will ratify this and it will be in force from January 2025. This means that drivers with post 1997 licences can drive upto 4250kg whether EV or ICE powered. Licences will become digital and some medicals will be self assessment.

Current information from Downing Street strongly suggests that the U.K.'s original stance was to also adopt this following an announcement during the March 2025 budget. The U.K. has historically adopted the first 3 directives and will also adopt No4.

There is now however a strong suggestion that this will be announced during the late October budget and will be in place for newly registered motohomes from March 1st.

This is of course still to be confirmed.

 

[DDJC]

I think on the EU it’s all part of the Vienna convention, which means it’s got to be road legal in the country of registration (U.K.) then it’s legal every where in the EU!
Now when you leave the EU that’s another matter!
Tread the globe has just been round the world for 5 years and 4 of them without tax or MOT

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it under the Vienna Convention.

This issue is about a vehicle tax issue and a licence coding issue, which is a national decision. The EU like to harmonise where possible, which is what this is all about. The UK harmonises some driving regs with the EU, and not others. Hopefully this is one that they do.

There are two parts about this which greatly interest me. Firstly the B1 weight extension to 4250kilos from March 2025, and secondly the bit about the DVLA not wanting to change the V5 should I want to up-plate from 3500 to 3850. Without an up-plate change on the V5, the French/German/Italian, etc, police will see you as overweight and nick you. I doubt a letter from some DVLA pencilneck will make any difference. Does anyone else have more info about this issue?

We already have the bigger tyres, the better brakes, and the semi air suspension on the rear axle, but we can't up-plate until the licence codes change to 4250kg. Also, our V5C has nearly no info on it at all. Nothing about axle weights. Should it have?

 

[DDJC]

Vienna? Means nothing to me

Genius!

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it.

This issue is about a vehicle tax issue and a licence coding issue, which is a national decision. The EU like to harmonise where possible, which is what this is all about. The UK harmonises some driving regs with the EU, and not others. Hopefully this is one that they do.

There are two parts about this which greatly interest me. Firstly the B1 weight extension to 4250kilos from March 2025, and secondly the bit about the DVLA not wanting to change the V5 should I want to up-plate from 3500 to 3850. Without an up-plate change on the V5, the French/German/Italian, etc, police will see you as overweight and nick you. I doubt a letter from some DVLA pencilneck will make any difference. Does anyone else have more info about this issue?

We already have the bigger tyres, the better brakes, and the semi air suspension on the rear axle, but we can't up-plate until the licence codes change to 4250kg. Also, our V5C has nearly no info on it at all. Nothing about axle weights. Should it have?
View attachment 960825

Which chassis are you on?

 

[DDJC]

Which chassis are you on?

Dunno. A non-AlKo one.
I do know it isn't AlKo because the semi air suspension fitted was a non-AlKo one.
And that 3850 is the max I can go to, confirmed by SV Tech.

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[CAB96]

But likely their insurance is invalid so hopefully they won't run into you.

It's not a UK daft policy its a normal policy, for your insurance to be valid it has to be road legal in your own country so taxed, MOT (or home country equivalent) and anything else needed. How the authorities would check I'm not sure and probably not an issue till something happens.

As I understand it, third party insurance must still be upheld even if you invalidate the remainder.

So the victim of an incident should get their payout, it's just the insured party who won't get a new van.

 

[PaulW2]

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it.

An old philosophical distinction rears its head? Everything is permitted unless explicitly forbidden, versus everything is forbidden unless explicitly permitted.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Dunno. A non-AlKo one.
I do know it isn't AlKo because the semi air suspension fitted was a non-AlKo one.
And that 3850 is the max I can go to, confirmed by SV Tech.

We’re on an ALKO AMC38L (light) chassis, think the heaviest we can go with rear air and uprated front springs is 4000, but that should do us.

 

[MichaelT]

We’re on an ALKO AMC38L (light) chassis, think the heaviest we can go with rear air and uprated front springs is 4000, but that should do us.

That's what we did.

 

[L' Hobo]

Please keep us posted as that is almost what I did except I used VWE to provide the weight change certification otherwise the same weight change as you. The DVLA have changed everything except the revenue weight and Taxation Class.

May I ask what vehicle category yours is in, N1 or M1? That may be the difference.

Can I ask, where on one's V5 one would find this written because I've looked on my 3.5 ton Ducato V5 and it's registered as
Motor Caravan ,
Taxation class PLG
, Revenue weight 400.0 kg UNLADEN
(I thought someone said, UNLADEN weights were NEVER shown?)
but no N1 or M1,?

Does this ONLY apply to vehicles heavier than 3500kgs?

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[Northernraider]

But likely their insurance is invalid so hopefully they won't run into you.

It's not a UK daft policy its a normal policy, for your insurance to be valid it has to be road legal in your own country so taxed, MOT (or home country equivalent) and anything else needed. How the authorities would check I'm not sure and probably not an issue till something happens.

Nope I asked that question. Their insurance view is that as long as the vehicle is kept in roadworthy condition they are still fully covered. As the mot can only be done on the vehicle in the country it is registered in and they are doing a trip all the way to China over 2 years then they can't possibly have it motd.

As I said only the UK has this restriction. If it wasn't for mot I'd rarely be in the UK either.

 

[Gellyneck]

Strange. Mine does not have anything next to vehicle category.

Mine is just Motor Caravan and nothing against item J vehicle category

Likewise on our V5 - Body type = Motor caravan - Taxation class = Private HGV - Revenue weight = 4250kg gross - Vehicle class = blank.

 

[L' Hobo]

Nope I asked that question. Their insurance view is that as long as the vehicle is kept in roadworthy condition they are still fully covered. As the mot can only be done on the vehicle in the country it is registered in and they are doing a trip all the way to China over 2 years then they can't possibly have it motd.

As I said only the UK has this restriction. If it wasn't for mot I'd rarely be in the UK either.

Many years ago when I was running artic trucks and thinking about keeping one in Zeebrugge, another truck &driver in Dover and letting the loaded trailor's go on the ferries 'unaccompanied' which was cheaper.

I was told that after a certain number of months (I think it was 6) and the vehicle not returning to UK, it would HAVE to be reregistered in that other country?

Perhaps rules have changed because this was before joining the EU, but I have had no notification of it?

 

[gus-lopez]

, and that the EU is likely to follow suit?

No ,the EU instigated it. Spain starts 4250kgs from 1st January

Problem is then I don't think your insurance is valid?

I fail to see how people do not understand insurance.It was invented to pay for third party costs. It can NEVER be invalid for those as that is the basis of what it is for.To pay for damage to things you hit.What it isn't/wouldn't be valid for is for your OWN damage. it was never intended for that

Not just that you are likely to get a pretty big fine

It actually usually works out far less than the tax that has been avoided

Do you need UK road tax to drive in the EU?

yes & mot & ins

But likely their insurance is invalid so hopefully they won't run into you.

As above that is what it is for, paying for your damage when they hit you.

It's not a UK daft policy its a normal policy, for your insurance to be valid it has to be road legal in your own country so taxed,

& mot

No, I have looked very deeply into the Vienna Convention and it has no bearing on any of this. What it says of the usual interest to motorhomers is about A Frames. If a vehicle or vehicle/trailer combi is legal in one signatory nation, then it is (usually) legal in any signatory nation, (subject to local laws about safety). This is why A Frames are not legal on the continent, because UK law has not made A Frames legal. They are simply, not illegal, and although a subtle difference, that isn't enough for the EU member state police forces/Transport departments to permit it under the Vienna Convention.

This issue is about a vehicle tax issue and a licence coding issue, which is a national decision. The EU like to harmonise where possible, which is what this is all about. The UK harmonises some driving regs with the EU, and not others. Hopefully this is one that they do.

There are two parts about this which greatly interest me. Firstly the B1 weight extension to 4250kilos from March 2025, and secondly the bit about the DVLA not wanting to change the V5 should I want to up-plate from 3500 to 3850. Without an up-plate change on the V5, the French/German/Italian, etc, police will see you as overweight and nick you. I doubt a letter from some DVLA pencilneck will make any difference. Does anyone else have more info about this issue?

We already have the bigger tyres, the better brakes, and the semi air suspension on the rear axle, but we can't up-plate until the licence codes change to 4250kg. Also, our V5C has nearly no info on it at all. Nothing about axle weights. Should it have?
View attachment 960825

A clever person would infill,using the correct typeset,all the details that they require & dvla couldn't be rsed to print

 

[DDJC]

A clever person would infill,using the correct typeset,all the details that they require & dvla couldn't be rsed to print

Gus, that is forgery! While I have the PC graphical knowhow to do it, I wouldn't. I would just want the DVLA to do their job.

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[poppycamper]

I belive that for insurance to be valid the vehicle has to be road worthy and taxed etc. Even when abroad you still have to be taxed and have MOT (if needed) for insurance to be valid. I may be wrong but can't be asked to read small print and certainly wouldn't take chance.

MichaelT , Think confusion here ( on my part)... because someone has me on ignore I am not getting the full picture to this thread anymore, how fustrating, so I am replying to you when you were actually replying to the person ignoring me so what I say then becomes irrelevant...
So please accept my apologies for my posts.. made in good faith but with only half the facts..

 

[Bessy765]

We had SV tech do a paper up plate earlier this year from 4000kg to 4500kg. No mods were required. It on a 2019 Fiat heavy chassis. For various reasons I never got around to sending the paperwork of but am about to do so so 4000kgto 4500kg is that going to be affected by all this new gobbledygook?

 

[PaulW2]

I fail to see how people do not understand insurance.It was invented to pay for third party costs. It can NEVER be invalid for those as that is the basis of what it is for.To pay for damage to things you hit.What it isn't/wouldn't be valid for is for your OWN damage. it was never intended for that

That's an interesting point. Usually insurance (which is just pooling of risk) is taken out to protect us from the cost of claims which we can't afford, or where we prefer the premium to the contingent loss. But then usually we are not legally obliged to have insurance - it's something we decide for ourselves. In the case of vehicles we are obliged to have insurance, and the minimum insurance we are obliged to have is third party. So the legal requirement to have vehicles insured is indeed in order to protect others.

Of course the insurance we take out, from a private insurance company, is valid on its own contractual terms. If we violate those terms the insurer may decline to pay out. Even if it's only third party insurance.

 

[L' Hobo]

We had SV tech do a paper up plate earlier this year from 4000kg to 4500kg. No mods were required. It on a 2019 Fiat heavy chassis. For various reasons I never got around to sending the paperwork of but am about to do so so 4000kgto 4500kg is that going to be affected by all this new gobbledygook?

As you are already above the 3500kgs, it shouldn't but keep us informed please!

 

[MichaelT]

Can I ask, where on one's V5 one would find this written because I've looked on my 3.5 ton Ducato V5 and it's registered as
Motor Caravan ,
Taxation class PLG
, Revenue weight 400.0 kg UNLADEN
(I thought someone said, UNLADEN weights were NEVER shown?)
but no N1 or M1,?

Does this ONLY apply to vehicles heavier than 3500kgs?

I think it's on newer V5c, just looked at the last 2 MH we had, one 2016 the other 2019 and it's not on them but our new one from 2024 has it.