Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation

[L' Hobo]

So insurance is required but I doubt they'd bother about road tax.

Mot ? Surely if its roadworthy


Uk insurance though will not admitted you that you are always covered by minimum requirement even if mot had expired

I'm not sure where this belief that one is covered by Third party insurance, even if you are driving illegally comes from.

I thought that one had to sign a document saying one would drive the vehicle in a lawful and roadworthy condition. (If you didn't, surely you are breaking the contract?)

Has anyone got a link to this assumption,?

 

[PaulW2]

I'm not sure where this belief that one is covered by Third party insurance, even if you are driving illegally comes from.

I thought that one had to sign a document saying one would drive the vehicle in a lawful and roadworthy condition. (If you didn't, surely you are breaking the contract?)

Has anyone got a link to this assumption,?

I agree. There must obviously be a breakpoint. So I don't tax or MOT my car, drive on threadbare tyres... At some point in this conversation any private company will turn around and say that wasn't the deal.

I think it's governed by the insurance agreement, including its fine print. Violate it and you're up the creek just as you are for comprehensive insurance.

 

[The Wino]

As you are already above the 3500kgs, it shouldn't but keep us informed please!

I don't think anyone knows what the difference will be between say 4250 and 4500. If they align up to 4250 with 3500 it could be a more desirable limit to go to ( higher speed limits and no additional licence required)

 

[gus-lopez]

If we violate those terms the insurer may decline to pay out. Even if it's only third party insurance.

No they cannot.It is illegal.No matter what you do they have to pay 3rd party claims out.That is the law.They will probably then sue you.

This is why I can never understand why anyone pleads guilty to "having no insurance" ,as long as they have taken it out & paid the premium , as you always have 3rd party ,no matter what.

My argument with them is that Internationally N1 Category is for commercial vehicles up to 3500kg max gross weight and now that the vehicle is up-plated to 4200kg and recognised by them as such it cannot still be an N1 vehicle. They say that the law says they cannot change the Category of a vehicle once it has been registered etc. etc.

It may be that a vehicle originally registered as M1 (which has a higher max gross weight) can have the Taxation Class changed to PHG. Someone previously in this thread posts that this has been done in his case.

You need to be careful that they do not turn around & say that if it applies only to up to 3500kgs that they cannot uprate it above that weight? I really can't see how N1 is 'only to 3500kgs ' as what are all the over 3500kgs vehicles classed as ?

If you're travelling through many countries you can't register it in everyone you travel in.

I did 9 months on.my last trip , 11 months on the first one In 2018

it is 6 months in one country in a 12 months period

That's a good point. So what if the vehicle were sorned, it's not on a UK road, so breakingno law

You are breaking the law just doing that .SORN is only allowed on a vehicle parked off road "in the UK" it cannot be sorned outside.

I'm not sure where this belief that one is covered by Third party insurance, even if you are driving illegally comes from.

It is the original law introduced back in the dark ages & was called "road traffic acts" at the outset. It was to compensate people, buildings, road furniture etc;etc; for any damage that you did. There was never any "full comp" at the outset. Nor was their "fire & theft"

Has anyone got a link to this assumption,?

google road traffic acts/ insurance

I agree. There must obviously be a breakpoint. So I don't tax or MOT my car, drive on threadbare tyres... At some point in this conversation any private company will turn around and say that wasn't the deal.

There isn't The insurance company is legally liable if you have a paid for policy.These days they will sue you & bankrupt you for the payments they had to make.

Here is the RTA original when you could still deposit 15k pounds with the attorney general ,that ended up at 500k but was removed in 2019 ,I believe.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpg...-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted


You will see at 148; 1 & 2 that there are restrictions for which they will not pay out , as in 148;2 except WHAT IS REQUIRED under the law which is 3rd party costs as stated in 148;3-It then states at 148;4 that any liability that they have to pay to 3rd parties under their legal obligations will be recovered from the policy holder.

 

[Northernraider]

I'm not sure where this belief that one is covered by Third party insurance, even if you are driving illegally comes from.

I thought that one had to sign a document saying one would drive the vehicle in a lawful and roadworthy condition. (If you didn't, surely you are breaking the contract?)

Has anyone got a link to this assumption,?

Richard gus-lopez will help . He knows the ins and outs better than me and I'm up to my eyes in generator lol

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[PaulW2]

No they cannot.It is illegal.No matter what you do they have to pay 3rd party claims out.That is the law.They will probably then sue you.

This is why I can never understand why anyone pleads guilty to "having no insurance" ,as long as they have taken it out & paid the premium , as you always have 3rd party ,no matter what.


You need to be careful that they do not turn around & say that if it applies only to up to 3500kgs that they cannot uprate it above that weight? I really can't see how N1 is 'only to 3500kgs ' as what are all the over 3500kgs vehicles classed as ?

it is 6 months in one country in a 12 months period

You are breaking the law just doing that .SORN is only allowed on a vehicle parked off road "in the UK" it cannot be sorned outside.

It is the original law introduced back in the dark ages & was called "road traffic acts" at the outset. It was to compensate people, buildings, road furniture etc;etc; for any damage that you did. There was never any "full comp" at the outset. Nor was their "fire & theft"

google road traffic acts/ insurance

There isn't The insurance company is legally liable if you have a paid for policy.These days they will sue you & bankrupt you for the payments they had to make.

Here is the RTA original when you could still deposit 15k pounds with the attorney general ,that ended up at 500k but was removed in 2019 ,I believe.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpg...-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted


You will see at 148; 1 & 2 that there are restrictions for which they will not pay out , as in 148;2 except WHAT IS REQUIRED under the law which is 3rd party costs as stated in 148;3-It then states at 148;4 that any liability that they have to pay to 3rd parties under their legal obligations will be recovered from the policy holder.

There isn't The insurance company is legally liable if you have a paid for policy.These days they will sue you & bankrupt you for the payments they had to make.

Here is the RTA original when you could still deposit 15k pounds with the attorney general ,that ended up at 500k but was removed in 2019 ,I believe.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpg...-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted


You will see at 148; 1 & 2 that there are restrictions for which they will not pay out , as in 148;2 except WHAT IS REQUIRED under the law which is 3rd party costs as stated in 148;3-It then states at 148;4 that any liability that they have to pay to 3rd parties under their legal obligations will be recovered from the policy holder.

Interesting, thanks

 

[Emmit]

No they cannot.It is illegal.No matter what you do they have to pay 3rd party claims out.That is the law.They will probably then sue you.

This is why I can never understand why anyone pleads guilty to "having no insurance" ,as long as they have taken it out & paid the premium , as you always have 3rd party ,no matter what.


You need to be careful that they do not turn around & say that if it applies only to up to 3500kgs that they cannot uprate it above that weight? I really can't see how N1 is 'only to 3500kgs ' as what are all the over 3500kgs vehicles classed as ?

it is 6 months in one country in a 12 months period

You are breaking the law just doing that .SORN is only allowed on a vehicle parked off road "in the UK" it cannot be sorned outside.

It is the original law introduced back in the dark ages & was called "road traffic acts" at the outset. It was to compensate people, buildings, road furniture etc;etc; for any damage that you did. There was never any "full comp" at the outset. Nor was their "fire & theft"

google road traffic acts/ insurance

There isn't The insurance company is legally liable if you have a paid for policy.These days they will sue you & bankrupt you for the payments they had to make.

Here is the RTA original when you could still deposit 15k pounds with the attorney general ,that ended up at 500k but was removed in 2019 ,I believe.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpg...-or-security-against-thirdparty-risks/enacted


You will see at 148; 1 & 2 that there are restrictions for which they will not pay out , as in 148;2 except WHAT IS REQUIRED under the law which is 3rd party costs as stated in 148;3-It then states at 148;4 that any liability that they have to pay to 3rd parties under their legal obligations will be recovered from the policy holder.

Only in relation to the below comment.
"You are breaking the law just doing that .SORN is only allowed on a vehicle parked off road "in the UK" it cannot be sorned outside"

Whilst I accept that that is what the DVLA say, I've yet to find that piece of legislation written down. I've looked, but I cannot find it
Just because DVLA say it, it doesn't make it Law.

 

[nicholsong]

Only in relation to the below comment.
"You are breaking the law just doing that .SORN is only allowed on a vehicle parked off road "in the UK" it cannot be sorned outside"

Whilst I accept that that is what the DVLA say, I've yet to find that piece of legislation written down. I've looked, but I cannot find it
Just because DVLA say it, it doesn't make it Law.

A quite bright DVLA employee informed me pointedly 'The SORN form does not ask where the vehicle is kept'

 

[L' Hobo]

A quite bright DVLA employee informed me pointedly 'The SORN form does not ask where the vehicle is kept'

But sorn stands for, STATUTORY OFF ROAD NOTIFICATION.

doesn't the statutory bit means it's the law that it MUST be off road?

 

[gus-lopez]

Just because DVLA say it, it doesn't make it Law.

Making a SORN

last paragraphhttps://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-notification

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[Northernraider]

But sorn stands for, STATUTORY OFF ROAD NOTIFICATION.

doesn't the statutory bit means it's the law that it MUST be off road?

Well if its abroad its technically off UK roads ain't it lol.

Be under no illusion the whole thing is just so the UK gov doesn't lose money.
Something I'm sure no one in Europe gives a damm about

 

[gus-lopez]

we had a two pager 4 years ago
https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/can-you-sorn-mh-when-using-vehicle-abroad.222161/

 

[HKF]

Well if its abroad its technically off UK roads ain't it lol.

Be under no illusion the whole thing is just so the UK gov doesn't lose money.
Something I'm sure no one in Europe gives a damm about

I'm not saying this is the only problem but, if it's SORNd, how would you get it out of the country or back in again. You'd have to drive on UK roads, unless you could get it trailered to / from the port?

 

[Northernraider]

I'm not saying this is the only problem but, if it's SORNd, how would you get it out of the country or back in again. You'd have to drive on UK roads, unless you could get it trailered to / from the port?

Sorn when you get on ferry , retax when you return surely . I don't do this...I'm just saying I don't see why you couldn't.

My scooter is sorned though as I've not used it since buying it.

 

[HKF]

Sorn when you get on ferry , retax when you return surely . I don't do this...I'm just saying I don't see why you couldn't.

My scooter is sorned though as I've not used it since buying it.

A-ha, yes, I can see that now. It's not something I'd do either but it sounds like it may work for someone

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[Emmit]

Making a SORN

last paragraphhttps://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-notification

With the greatest respect, that is a Gov. site. In reality it means nothing. I have not seen anything in Law that backs up their statement that you need to be in the UK to have a valid SORN.
Believe me, I've looked at the Vehicle Excise Act in Stones Justices Manual which is in front of EVERY Magistrates Clerk at every sitting in the UK and I cannot find it written in Law that one can only SORN a vehicle when it is in the UK.

 

[MichaelT]

With the greatest respect, that is a Gov. site. In reality it means nothing. I have not seen anything in Law that backs up their statement that you need to be in the UK to have a valid SORN.
Believe me, I've looked at the Vehicle Excise Act in Stones Justices Manual which is in front of EVERY Magistrates Clerk at every sitting in the UK and I cannot find it written in Law that one can only SORN a vehicle when it is in the UK.

No but it says you cannot drive it.

 

[The Wino]

But even if the insurance do pay for third party claims they wouldn't pay for anything else they could sue you to recover the funds plus expenses and put you on the declined insurance database which is going to make trying to drive in the future very expensive if not impossible.

 

[Emmit]

No but it says you cannot drive it.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that anyone SORN a vehicle when out of the country and drive on a road, park in an Aire etc.
But I have yet to be convinced that any Law has been broken by SORNing a vehicle on private land abroad. In this case, I'm referring to the thousands of folk who park up, in a camp site in Spain for months.
I appreciate that it could be regarded as 'penny pinching' .That is not in question. What I am saying is that DVLA do not make rules. The Law is paramount and until someone shows me the Statute or Regulation that says it, I will continue to state that no offence has been committed in the circumstances I have described, above.

 

[Emmit]

we had a two pager 4 years ago
https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/can-you-sorn-mh-when-using-vehicle-abroad.222161/

And no one in those four pages produced any Statute that says an offence has been committed in such circumstances.

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[PaulW2]

It is the way of the world now. Elon Musk and I are dead to each other.

Politicians try to talk to me. Off goes the TV.

 

[poppycamper]

Yes, I'm sure. Some people have me on block, so I understand. On the flip side, I also have people on block, some on two-way block, so I'm certain I caused confusion, too

Just to add, I'm going offline soon so I may not respond if Jim gets back to us on this. Maybe someone with bigger shoes or more clout than me can help you, if I can't

He's replied to me so you must be in the clear...sleep tight..

 

[Googlebot]

On a side note.. my concern about the ignore button is that, let's say I say something to upset a fellow funster and then realise I was totally out of order and issue an immediate apology to said funster.... To late they have reacted immediately and possibly prematurely and hit ignore....
So they will never see my apology or any of my subsequent posts asking why they are ignoring me.... Fustrating and IMV somewhat petty.!!!!

I always 2 way ignore, it’s not petty, if someone irks me, they don’t get to listen to me either. It’s the same in real life, why would I expect to talk to someone who irritates me? This is Motorhome fun, not interact with people who annoy you fun. It’s an excellent feature and I use it.

Some threads are excellent for adding to my ignore list, like shooting fish in a barrel. You don’t even have to be mean to me, just anyone really and bosh, like magic, never mean again.

Back on topic, does anyone have a link to anything official. I am getting excited at Lucy being able to drive again.

 

[poppycamper]

I always 2 way ignore, it’s not petty, if someone irks me, they don’t get to listen to me either. It’s the same in real life, why would I expect to talk to someone who irritates me? This is Motorhome fun, not interact with people who annoy you fun. It’s an excellent feature and I use it.

Some threads are excellent for adding to my ignore list, like shooting fish in a barrel. You don’t even have to be mean to me, just anyone really and bosh, like magic, never mean again.

Back on topic, does anyone have a link to anything official. I am getting excited at Lucy being able to drive again.

OK.. I admit maybe, petty the wrong phrase . but surely you can see that having someone ignoring you can totally distrupt the flow of a thread that i am following then becomes a useless flow of interrupted information .

 

[suavecarve]

Only in relation to the below comment.
"You are breaking the law just doing that .SORN is only allowed on a vehicle parked off road "in the UK" it cannot be sorned outside"

Whilst I accept that that is what the DVLA say, I've yet to find that piece of legislation written down. I've looked, but I cannot find it
Just because DVLA say it, it doesn't make it Law.

Does this help ?

.gov site

Taking a vehicle out of the UK

Taking your car out of the UK - when VAT is not payable on a car you're exporting, procedures, registration and vehicle tax.

www.gov.uk

UK law still applies to a UK-registered vehicle if you take it abroad for less than 12 months. That means you need to make sure:

• your vehicle is taxed in the UK while it’s abroad
• you have a current MOT
• you have UK insurance

I read this as the Government saying it is Law to have your vehicle taxed if abroad for less than 12 months.

How they would catch you is another question, however, if the Law actually states the above (as until you find the exact wording and read it yourself you cant really tell) and you return after 3 months and your vehicle has been Sorned, this suggests it may be plausible you could be caught by an ANPR aligned to DVLA database which could be set up to automatically notify "Recently Unsorned". Whether that happens or not ?????

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[Stoosal]

With the greatest respect, that is a Gov. site. In reality it means nothing. I have not seen anything in Law that backs up their statement that you need to be in the UK to have a valid SORN.
Believe me, I've looked at the Vehicle Excise Act in Stones Justices Manual which is in front of EVERY Magistrates Clerk at every sitting in the UK and I cannot find it written in Law that one can only SORN a vehicle when it is in the UK.

The explanatory notes to the legislation states the SORN vehicle is registered and kept in Great Britain.

There is no definition I can see relating to what/where ‘kept’ refers to ie remains in GB or majority of time in GB.

Keeper must furnish the address at which SORN vehicle is kept. This may suggest it is not registered keepers address but location where it is stored whilst subject to SORN…?

Cant find any stated cases to suggest this question has been tested in court. I think the legislation is silent on the actual question so no definitive answer.

 

[suavecarve]

The form you fill in when you SORN

 

[HKF]

He's replied to me so you must be in the clear...sleep tight..

Pheweeee Just going to sleep now. i disappeared earlier to watch the last episode of Joan Glad you got it sorted

 

[Stoosal]

Seems fairly definitive!

 

[poppycamper]

Pheweeee Just going to sleep now. i disappeared earlier to watch the last episode of Joan Glad you got it sorted

Sorted!! Debatable

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