Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation

[MichaelT]

Does this help ?

.gov site

Taking a vehicle out of the UK

Taking your car out of the UK - when VAT is not payable on a car you're exporting, procedures, registration and vehicle tax.

www.gov.uk

UK law still applies to a UK-registered vehicle if you take it abroad for less than 12 months. That means you need to make sure:

• your vehicle is taxed in the UK while it’s abroad
• you have a current MOT
• you have UK insurance

I read this as the Government saying it is Law to have your vehicle taxed if abroad for less than 12 months.

How they would catch you is another question, however, if the Law actually states the above (as until you find the exact wording and read it yourself you cant really tell) and you return after 3 months and your vehicle has been Sorned, this suggests it may be plausible you could be caught by an ANPR aligned to DVLA database which could be set up to automatically notify "Recently Unsorned". Whether that happens or not ?????

We all give our registration number to the ferry company and the docks are full of cameras looking g for undesirables.

 

[gus-lopez]

What I am saying is that DVLA do not make rules. The Law is paramount and until someone shows me the Statute or Regulation that says it, I will continue to state that no offence has been committed in the circumstances I have described, above.

Yes I see your point

And no one in those four pages produced any Statute that says an offence has been committed in such circumstances.

.It is the same as the photo on the driving licence there is no legislation requiring that to be renewed

Cant find any stated cases to suggest this question has been tested in court. I think the legislation is silent on the actual question so no definitive answer

& the same is found for photo renewal on driving licences

The form you fill in when you SORN
View attachment 961178

Yes but as Emmit is saying that is dvla .They same the same that your licence isn't valid without photo renewal at 10 years but they have failed to institute prosecutions even when asked to do so, as they know they would lose due to the fact that the 'photo' requirement has never been legalised.

We all give our registration number to the ferry company and the docks are full of cameras looking g for undesirables.

But they still never noticed my nephew when the garage failed to register his mot in the september & he ran around in essex, down to euro tunnel, across europe ,3months at my house, all the way back, & only came to light when he went to tax it at the end of April?

 

[suavecarve]

Yes but as @Emmit is saying that is dvla .

The form requests a declaration. (we can agree with that)
The form states you may not apply for SORN from abroad. (we can agree with that)
If you apply, from abroad and sign the declaration. How is that NOT making a false declaration ? And it is the taxman (in effect) you are making the false declaration to rather than the police. I dont think defrauding (or attempting) the taxman (for £50 saving) is a well thought out idea.

The ambiguity is that the statement "you may not apply from abroad" is within Guidelines. A poor defence would be to go to Court and suggest that you understood that to be a guide and not a regulation.

But the offence is covered in section 170 RTA 1972 which may satisfy Emmit even though (I agree) I can find nothing that independently states no SORN from abroad in statute (which is his point) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpg...son shall be,particular or recklessly makes a

Its obviously so much easier if there is a stated case, which hasnt made the news yet. But neither has a case made the news that failed in the prosecution.

It is now unbelievably easy to be caught by the powers that be. Go through customs and your registration is logged, Request SORN, DVLA person/computer checks whether vehicle is in country or not. Decides to see if you have done this before and lets say you have (each winter) and they will fill their boots with you. (IMO) "A wilful propensity to defraud the taxman" might be the opening statement of the prosecutor

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Withdrawn

 

[DerryW]

Thread drift ……..

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[RowleyBirkinQC]

Thread drift ……..

Fair point.

 

[Emmit]

The form requests a declaration. (we can agree with that)
The form states you may not apply for SORN from abroad. (we can agree with that)
If you apply, from abroad and sign the declaration. How is that NOT making a false declaration ? And it is the taxman (in effect) you are making the false declaration to rather than the police. I dont think defrauding (or attempting) the taxman (for £50 saving) is a well thought out idea.

The ambiguity is that the statement "you may not apply from abroad" is within Guidelines. A poor defence would be to go to Court and suggest that you understood that to be a guide and not a regulation.

But the offence is covered in section 170 RTA 1972 which may satisfy Emmit even though (I agree) I can find nothing that independently states no SORN from abroad in statute (which is his point) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/20/part/VII/crossheading/forgery-false-statements-etc/enacted#:~:text=(2)A person shall be,particular or recklessly makes a

Its obviously so much easier if there is a stated case, which hasnt made the news yet. But neither has a case made the news that failed in the prosecution.

It is now unbelievably easy to be caught by the powers that be. Go through customs and your registration is logged, Request SORN, DVLA person/computer checks whether vehicle is in country or not. Decides to see if you have done this before and lets say you have (each winter) and they will fill their boots with you. (IMO) "A wilful propensity to defraud the taxman" might be the opening statement of the prosecutor

Guilty as charged M'Lud.

Thank you suavecarve
The Fraud Act has certainly tightened up the old Theft Act as far as statements/declarations are concerned.

I am now in the camp of, "You can't SORN a vehicle when it is out of the UK"

All it needed, (as above) was someone to post the relevant legislation.

 

[slowdriver]

Double bubble winners will be those already up plated to 4250kg GVW which will remain as PHGV with RFL at £165 (at present).

This is a great result for us. We have recently increased from 3,500kg to 4,250, but as a result my wife is now unable to drive the van because her licence was issued in July 97 after the March 97 deadline.
However I do get the £165 RFT in perpetuity, and come Jan 25 my wife will be able to drive it again, which even though she dislikes driving, will be useful in emergencies. Plus the resale value of the van will possibly increase as a result of having access to a much larger market.

 

[yorkie boy]

Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation.

When up plating from 3500kg RFL will continue to be £365 pa. IT IS NOT being reduced to the PHG rate of £165.

Secondly, the DVLA are no longer changing the V5c to illustrate your new weight. The MTPLM will remain at 3500kg. This means that if your motorhome is detected on road installed Weight In Motion Sensors - WIMS, you WILL be classed as overweight. Currently there is no plan to prosecute although you will receive a letter advising you of weight limits etc.

This legislation is causing a great deal of harm to companies such as SvTech who are currently in constant communication with HMG and it is fully expected to be escalated and discussed on the floor in the House of Commons.

However, one of the reasons why in the short term this is in force is due to the EU's 4th directive and once in place will mean that RFL will illustrate the new entry weight limit. Vans & Moho's will need to be over 4250kg in order to qualify for the reduced RFL.

The Fourth Directive...

The EU will ratify this and it will be in force from January 2025. This means that drivers with post 1997 licences can drive upto 4250kg whether EV or ICE powered. Licences will become digital and some medicals will be self assessment.

Current information from Downing Street strongly suggests that the U.K.'s original stance was to also adopt this following an announcement during the March 2025 budget. The U.K. has historically adopted the first 3 directives and will also adopt No4.

There is now however a strong suggestion that this will be announced during the late October budget and will be in place for newly registered motohomes from March 1st.

This is of course still to be confirmed.

Just out of intrest if your vehicle's main manufactured chassie is stamped st 3650 but motorhome converter has downgraded it to 3500, does that mean you are legal upto 3650 without any up plateing been done If this goes s head ?

 

[10tenmen]

Just out of intrest if your vehicle's main manufactured chassie is stamped st 3650 but motorhome converter has downgraded it to 3500, does that mean you are legal upto 3650 without any up plateing been done If this goes s head ?

No you still have to apply to increase the payload with the dvla.

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[Northernraider]

No but it says you cannot drive it.

Only in the UK.
When it's in Europe it can't be picked up by UK anpr etc so unless they physically drive round to your registered address how would they know? And as no address given on a sorn declaration nothing states it has to be stored at the registered address.

AND if eu doesn't have access to UK system anymore how would anyone in the EU know the vehicle wasn't taxed.

Of course if you then had an accident and claimed while abroad and your vehicle was declared off road in UK then you'd perhaps have a problem.

But they'd still have to pay out any third party by law.

 

[Northernraider]

Does this help ?

.gov site

Taking a vehicle out of the UK

Taking your car out of the UK - when VAT is not payable on a car you're exporting, procedures, registration and vehicle tax.

www.gov.uk

UK law still applies to a UK-registered vehicle if you take it abroad for less than 12 months. That means you need to make sure:

• your vehicle is taxed in the UK while it’s abroad
• you have a current MOT
• you have UK insurance

I read this as the Government saying it is Law to have your vehicle taxed if abroad for less than 12 months.

How they would catch you is another question, however, if the Law actually states the above (as until you find the exact wording and read it yourself you cant really tell) and you return after 3 months and your vehicle has been Sorned, this suggests it may be plausible you could be caught by an ANPR aligned to DVLA database which could be set up to automatically notify "Recently Unsorned". Whether that happens or not ?????

The UK government also say you must display a UK sticker when abroad but no one in Europe knows where the UK is lol . They think its Ukraine.

I've never and will never display a UK sticker on my vehicle.

I put ecosse on mine and everyone in Europe except uncle Lenny HB knows where ecosse is

 

[Northernraider]

The form you fill in when you SORN
View attachment 961178

Never used a form it's done online these days. Never once asked for a sorn address. My scooter is registered in Scotland but its currently sorned in the garage of my motorhome in Cornwall.

 

[TonyEmm]

Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation.

When up plating from 3500kg RFL will continue to be £365 pa. IT IS NOT being reduced to the PHG rate of £165.

Secondly, the DVLA are no longer changing the V5c to illustrate your new weight. The MTPLM will remain at 3500kg. This means that if your motorhome is detected on road installed Weight In Motion Sensors - WIMS, you WILL be classed as overweight. Currently there is no plan to prosecute although you will receive a letter advising you of weight limits etc.

This legislation is causing a great deal of harm to companies such as SvTech who are currently in constant communication with HMG and it is fully expected to be escalated and discussed on the floor in the House of Commons.

However, one of the reasons why in the short term this is in force is due to the EU's 4th directive and once in place will mean that RFL will illustrate the new entry weight limit. Vans & Moho's will need to be over 4250kg in order to qualify for the reduced RFL.

The Fourth Directive...

The EU will ratify this and it will be in force from January 2025. This means that drivers with post 1997 licences can drive upto 4250kg whether EV or ICE powered. Licences will become digital and some medicals will be self assessment.

Current information from Downing Street strongly suggests that the U.K.'s original stance was to also adopt this following an announcement during the March 2025 budget. The U.K. has historically adopted the first 3 directives and will also adopt No4.

There is now however a strong suggestion that this will be announced during the late October budget and will be in place for newly registered motohomes from March 1st.

This is of course still to be confirmed.

Do you have a link to the new legislation please?

My Rapido is 3,700kgs revenue weight on my V5, I paid £165 in August…, I’ve heard nothing that it will change…

 

[Rozzer]

I was looking to buy a 3500kg replacement MH reluctantly because not convinced I’d manage the Bruce test at 73 in 2026. Looks like I should wait until March before commuting?

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[suavecarve]

The UK government also say you must display a UK sticker when abroad but no one in Europe knows where the UK is lol . They think its Ukraine.

I've never and will never display a UK sticker on my vehicle.

I put ecosse on mine and everyone in Europe except uncle Lenny HB knows where ecosse is

I am similar. Dont have UK stickers (But i do have a MHF sicker on bike) and as I also know where Ecosse is, I certainly wouldnt put one of those on my bike or Motorhome

 

[Northernraider]

I am similar. Dont have UK stickers (But i do have a MHF sicker on bike) and as I also know where Ecosse is, I certainly wouldnt put one of those on my bike or Motorhome

You're not allowed anyway. You've to show grand parents and great grandparents birth certificates in order to buy one

 

[suavecarve]

You're not allowed anyway. You've to show grand parents and great grandparents birth certificates in order to buy one

Thank the Lord

 

[ericonabike]

Afraid I've not read all 9 pages . I'm really not bothered about the VED aspect. But, if I understand it correctly, from March next year, anyone with a full licence can drive a vehicle up to 4250, up from current 3500. Which to me sounds excellent, as otherwise the potential market for over 3500 vans is shrinking year on year...
Am I correct?

 

[Barclaybasher]

It seems that the argument over SORN boils down to risking problems for at the most £82.50 a year - based on the likely case that you travel abroad for 6 months (unlikely) and in a PHG.......

Is it worth it?

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[ericonabike]

What's SORN got to do with it?

 

[The Artilleryman]

But, if I understand it correctly, from March next year, anyone with a full licence can drive a vehicle up to 4250, up from current 3500. Which to me sounds excellent, as otherwise the potential market for over 3500 vans is shrinking year on year...
Am I correct?

No, at present there are no plans to change category B/B1 fromthe present 3500kg GVW, the EU on the other hand, is increasing it to 4250kg ONLY FOR MOTORHOMES.

I expect that VED & fuel duty will rise in the forthcoming budget, at the end of this month.

 

[georgio]

Not before time this 3.5 malarkey has been going on for half a century when motor vehicle technology has has moved in leaps and bounds .it may have been pushed finally by ev,s. It makes sense to align these weights when traffic moves around different states. Commen sense tells me just by looking at motorhomes that over half must weigh over 3.5 tonnes.

 

[Apacheman]

Only in the UK.
When it's in Europe it can't be picked up by UK anpr etc so unless they physically drive round to your registered address how would they know? And as no address given on a sorn declaration nothing states it has to be stored at the registered address.

AND if eu doesn't have access to UK system anymore how would anyone in the EU know the vehicle wasn't taxed.

Of course if you then had an accident and claimed while abroad and your vehicle was declared off road in UK then you'd perhaps have a problem.

But they'd still have to pay out any third party by law.

Would you drive a £30000+++ vehicle in the knowledge that were you to be involved in a blameworthy collision only the 3rd party would get paid out to save say up to £50?

 

[Northernraider]

Would you drive a £30000+++ vehicle in the knowledge that were you to be involved in a blameworthy collision only the 3rd party would get paid out to save say up to £50?

Keep up


I already stated many many posts ago that I don't sorn my camper.


This whole sorn discussion started from me stating pages back that should they raise the weight to 4250kg and in doing so raise the current phgv tax rate of £165 to the same as plg at over £300 that I'd be refusing to pay it.

Why?

Because if they were to do that its just another underhand method of extracting money.


It's highly unlikely that they will so really the conversation is pointless.

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[gus-lopez]

The form states you may not apply for SORN from abroad. (we can agree with that)

No we can't as it does not state that.
It states "A sorn cannot be made if the vehicle is taken out of the UK" Which means you cannot sorn then take it out of the UK.It does not mean that you cannot take it out of the uk THEN sorn it? Two completely different things & why these people should not be allowed to write rules & regs & laws.

If you apply, from abroad and sign the declaration. How is that NOT making a false declaration ?

Because it doesn't say that you cannot do that ? It states that you cannot sorn it THEN take it out

The ambiguity is that the statement "you may not apply from abroad" is within Guidelines.

It does not state that anywhere.In fact it is the opposite. It states you cannot sorn it THEN take it out

It seems that the argument over SORN boils down to risking problems for at the most £82.50 a year - based on the likely case that you travel abroad for 6 months (unlikely) and in a PHG.......

Is it worth it?

I don't even know why they allow any type of reduction whatsoever. Here, in spain,if you 'sorn' a vehicle the itv(Mot) is cancelled immediately even if it passed the day before.
To remove the sorn the vehicle has to be ITV'd but legally cannot travel on the road to get to it & must be transported on a trailer or recovery truck.
Plus you pay to put it on a sorn
then you have to pay to get it taken to the itv station
then pay for a new itv
then you can pay to get it taken off the sorn

What's SORN got to do with it?

as said you need to read the 9 pages you missed

 

[PaulW2]

No we can't as it does not state that.
It states "A sorn cannot be made if the vehicle is taken out of the UK" Which means you cannot sorn then take it out of the UK.It does not mean that you cannot take it out of the uk THEN sorn it? Two completely different things & why these people should not be allowed to write rules & regs & laws.

Because it doesn't say that you cannot do that ? It states that you cannot sorn it THEN take it out

It does not state that anywhere.In fact it is the opposite. It states you cannot sorn it THEN take it out

I don't even know why they allow any type of reduction whatsoever. Here, in spain,if you 'sorn' a vehicle the itv(Mot) is cancelled immediately even if it passed the day before.
To remove the sorn the vehicle has to be ITV'd but legally cannot travel on the road to get to it & must be transported on a trailer or recovery truck.
Plus you pay to put it on a sorn
then you have to pay to get it taken to the itv station
then pay for a new itv
then you can pay to get it taken off the sorn


as said you need to read the 9 pages you missed

I guess it depends on interpretation doesn't it? And I would guess that anyone called on to adjudicate will also look to intention. I personally think you'd be stuffed both ways, and I would decline to be the test case, but just to test the one interpretation.

"A marathon cannot be run if a leg is broken" means that the run can't take place when the condition of the leg is "broken". Whether the leg broke before or during said race.

"I want to apply for a SORN." "Well, does this vehicle currently fit the description of 'taken out of the UK'? Then you can't."

 

[Apacheman]

Keep up


I already stated many many posts ago that I don't sorn my camper.


This whole sorn discussion started from me stating pages back that should they raise the weight to 4250kg and in doing so raise the current phgv tax rate of £165 to the same as plg at over £300 that I'd be refusing to pay it.

Why?

Because if they were to do that its just another underhand method of extracting money.


It's highly unlikely that they will so really the conversation is

Thanks for the telling off. That’s not how the actual post I responded to read!

 

[Northernraider]

I guess it depends on interpretation doesn't it? And I would guess that anyone called on to adjudicate will also look to intention. I personally think you'd be stuffed both ways, and I would decline to be the test case, but just to test the one interpretation.

"A marathon cannot be run if a leg is broken" means that the run can't take place when the condition of the leg is "broken". Whether the leg broke before or during said race.

"I want to apply for a SORN." "Well, does this vehicle currently fit the description of 'taken out of the UK'? Then you can't."

Not wishing to split hairs. I live in my camper. I have a scooter in the garage of said camper which is currently sorned. Now I leave the UK on November 5th.

If I don't tax it before I leave then it is most definitely out of the UK and sorned .


If I don't use the scooter during my whole trip in Europe am I breaking a law?


Do I care?


N.b this is a hypothetical question

 

[PaulW2]

If I don't use the scooter during my whole trip in Europe am I breaking a law?

Probably. The non-hairsplitting argument on this seems clear.

Which takes one to:

a) Risk of detection, and
b) consequences of detection.

And that is presumably why you don't care.

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