Towing a small car.

[AG 2602]

Hi All,
Some advise would be appreciated.
Never really wanted to tow a car behind the MH as we were always happy to walk out with the dog to wherever we needed to go.
However dog is now getting older so long walks of 6/7 miles are out of the question (especially hills). He can manage 4 miles on the flat (and he seems to enjoy it) with an hours rest in between which works OK but we miss the hills!!

We were planning either the Lakes or Scotland in Sept but feel we won't really see much. However if we had a small car then maybe we could drive further afield, and then do our walking at the top of hills rather than hiking up them.
We are already half way there as we have the following.

• Peugeot 107
• Tow bar already fitted to MH

Do people think this is a good move?
Anyone recommend a company near Bristol that could convert the car?

Alternatively we could spend all our holidays in Norfolk!!

 

[TonyEmm]

I seem to have opened a real can of worms here!! Now I'm not sure whether I should tow or not!!

Any talk of a-framing always opens a can of worms!
If you’re choosing to stay in the U.K., you are unlikely to be bothered by any enforcement agencies, barring an accident.

If you’re considering going abroad, be aware there is a possibility you could get pulled, have to disconnect and fined. Trailers are legal everywhere but a-frames are not.

Hopefully, this thread has armed you with the information, you do with that what you will!

your choice!

 

[DDJC]

I seem to have opened a real can of worms here!! Now I'm not sure whether I should tow or not!!

In a nutshell:

1. In UK and Ireland, you should be fine to tow a car on an A Frame as long as your weights aren't compromised. Check your insurance as well.

2. In Europe, it is not legal in most European countries and local laws apply. However, some local Plod don't really understand the law either. Spain seems to be the country that is hottest on it. Fines can be heavy and you could be ordered to decouple.

3. Use a reputable fitter (good luck finding one). A simple test is to ask them whether their system is legal to use in Europe. If they say "Yes of course it is completely legal in Europe", go elsewhere.

 

[AG 2602]

In a nutshell:

1. In UK and Ireland, you should be fine to tow a car on an A Frame as long as your weights aren't compromised. Check your insurance as well.

2. In Europe, it is not legal in most European countries and local laws apply. However, some local Plod don't really understand the law either. Spain seems to be the country that is hottest on it. Fines can be heavy and you could be ordered to decouple.

3. Use a reputable fitter (good luck finding one). A simple test is to ask them whether their system is legal to use in Europe. If they say "Yes of course it is completely legal in Europe", go elsewhere.

-No plans to tow outside of the UK

• Its an LNB fitted Towmaster 2 which seems to come highly recommended and their company reviews seem pretty positive.
• Motorhome is insured with Comfort and they have no problems re towing with an A Frame car is insured with LV and I had to pay an extra £40 per year in order to be insured whilst towing.

 

[DDJC]

-No plans to tow outside of the UK

• Its an LNB fitted Towmaster 2 which seems to come highly recommended and their company reviews seem pretty positive.
• Motorhome is insured with Comfort and they have no problems re towing with an A Frame car is insured with LV and I had to pay an extra £40 per year in order to be insured whilst towing.

Then fill yer boots!

But, what car are you towing ...?

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[AG 2602]

Then fill yer boots!

But, what car are you towing ...?

A very little Aygo!!

 

[DDJC]

A very little Aygo!!

Manual or auto?

 

[AG 2602]

Manual or auto?

Manual, it came fitted with the Towmaster kit fitted in 2021

 

[DDJC]

Manual, it came fitted with the Towmaster kit fitted in 2021

Cool. Have fun. I liked the idea of a small car when we did it. We used a Suzuki Ignis. Takes four adults sized people and has four doors. Problem was that it's ignition and gear box made it utterly unsuitable for use as a toad.

 

[Jez1966]

My read is the law prohibits towing a functioning vehicle with wheel on the ground in France or Spain, there may be other.
Though you may "get away" with it.
Caveat Emptor when choosing A-Frame supplier, there is limited/no regulation and ensure both motorhome and car fully detail
usage/changes insurance document.
Trailer manufacture regulated, established insurance process. Consider storage when not in use.
Not forgetting Gross Train Weight.
Research, Research, Research.

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[Platelet]

Regarding type approval, you’re correct that it was introduced in 1998 for M1(passenger car) vehicles under EC94/20. However that was replaced by Regulation 55 and type approval was extended in October 2012 to include motorhomes/campers and N1 (vans) class vehicles.

My apologies

 

[TonyEmm]

My apologies

No problem!

 

[62272]

Glad to hear it. It seems that you are less likely to get stopped in some countries, than others. What was your experience? Were you ever stopped, where, and if so, were you ever asked to de-couple. I only ask because it has happened to my knowledge to Funsters in France and Spain. But I've also heard of the ridiculous bit of paper that my fitter provided managing to convince a French Fed to let them continue.

Worrying that a traffic cop doesn't know his own laws, but hey, our gain.

When we first had it fitted and went across to France, we were really worried and waiting to be stopped having heard all the horror stories (on here). We were on a main route when two police traffic motorcycles were behind us (with a small white van in-between us) and I could see that they had their blue lights flashing (and they could have used the other lane to overtake us) so we assumed they wanted us to stop.

At the soonest layby we pulled in (as did the white van) and stopped to wait for the inevitable. Only to see the two Gendarmes dismount their bikes and speak to the van driver. I just drove off thinking that was close, but heard no more of it.

We have seen numerous Gendarmes and municiple police overtake us, pass us, or we’ve passed them without incident in France. and passed police in Belgium without a problem, albeit we have restriced our use of the A-frame to France generally.

Not to say there will be a first time, but so far have the outfit has paid for itself in terms of hire cars and has been extremely convenient too.

 

[62272]

Not sure what you mean by "without legal merit" as I was not referring to legality, read more carefully.
I was simple suggesting that to avoid future issues when making a claim the modifications/alternations are clearly documented.
Otherwise as per the blurb that is read to you when you take out insurance, something like, Failure to mention/disclose relevant
information may lead to insurance being cancelled.
The insurance company decides what is "relevant" and if discovered, even after a claim, they will cancel policy.

Thank you for clarifying that point

I would be very surprised if anyone on here who use A-Frame are not fully open with their insurers. We have been with Comfort, Adrian Flux and Motorhome and Caravan Club insurers, and they all have been very clear that I was covered A-Framing in UK and EU (As I specifically asked and got it in writing). The insurance cover did not seem to be increased as a result.

The Motorhome and Caravan Club put it to their underwriters in regards to my question about the ‘modification‘ to our Fiat 500 in terms of the A-frame kit and replacement cross member with screw on lug holes. They were of the clear view that they deemed this as an accessory (which I also got in writing at the time).

Tony has pointed out EU technical braking regulations which has been harmonised into UK law which the A-frame outfit does not meet. Whether any law enforcement body has any interest in pursuing such a case is yet to be seen. Also it could be the case now that Brexit is a recent memory UK legislation may disengage from the multitude of EU technical regulations that we all seem to be subject to (but are generally ignored by member states when they don’t like it!).

It would be far better to make specific regulations to permit the use of A-Frames specifically and legislate on the standards of fitting and use. Albeit that would take a lot of MP lobbying and interest from those bodies concerned which given the size of the market would be cost prohibitive.

 

[dunnah01]

Tony has pointed out EU technical braking regulations which has been harmonised into UK law which the A-frame outfit does not meet. Whether any law enforcement body has any interest in pursuing such a case is yet to be seen. Also it could be the case now that Brexit is a recent memory UK legislation may disengage from the multitude of EU technical regulations that we all seem to be subject to (but are generally ignored by member states when they don’t like it!).

Very unlikely to happen. There's no evidence of any divergence yet, just another layer of red tape (& cost) to get UKCA marking instead of CE marking which all EU countries abide by.

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[Conniedriving]

That site is not informative at all! It’s administrated by a guy and his daughter who, while passionate about a-framing, refuse to accept that EU regs, UNECE regs, the French ‘Code de la Route’ and ‘Instrucción 08/V-74’ from the Spanish DoT to the Guardia Civil all outlaw the a-frame towing of cars.
His group (of less than 100 members) refuse to allow discussion of towing with a trailer…. A much better group (with almost 4000 members) would be https://www.facebook.com/groups/921897484990172. It allows rational discussion on all aspects of transporting a car…

 

[TonyEmm]

View attachment 750643

That’s a Belgian Motorhome towing a Belgian car on a French a-frame.
Sadly, you didn’t post the pic where it’s clear that despite being a ‘professional’ he doesn’t know how to feed the breakaway cable!

 

[Steve and Denise]

I AM anti A Frame.

I used a well known company (not saying which) to fit an A Frame to our little car. I specifically asked :

a) was their system suitable for our car (which had push button start and an automated manual transmission gear box), and
b) was their system legal in Europe

To both questions I was told yes. We duly paid our two grand.

So, to the first question.
Lie. Our car isn't suitable to be fitted with, and towed on an A Frame. Literally only two miles into a Whitsun trip, just made it to the M25, and we had to stop with smoke pouring out of our tow car. You can't pull a robotiscised gearbox car. The damage? A hole in the engine block. Four thousand quid and new engine later, we figured that it was us, not the system. Not so. In Ireland, once again, a mile down the road the MH was pulling badly. Pulled over and decoupled. Drove it separately and it cost us another four hundred quid on the ferry for a second vehicle.

Why did this happen? Seems like the electronic buggering about, made the car start, because you have to release the steering lock. My local garage said that absolutely no way was our car suitable for an A Frame. The fitter lied - or didn't know their job. Or both. We ended up buying a Woodford Lwt trailer which although a nuisance to load/unload, served us well.

Second question.
Lie. It is NOT legal in Europe. After I found out the definitive law (and once understood, it is very very clear), I re-read the fitters FAQ. He carefully negotiates the most important question "Is towing a car on an A frame legal in Europe". The FAQ goes on about the United Nations Vienna Convention 1968 whereby if a vehicle is legal in its home country ("The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration") then it is legal in any country that has signed and ratified the Vienna Convention. No problem so far? OK, but is the A Frame legal in the United Kingdom?

No it isn't. It is not a crime to use an A Frame in UK, but it definitely isn't 'legal'. The use of A Frames in UK is simply 'not illegal', because the Dept of Transport has never ruled either way. The Vienna Convention is very clear in Chapter 3 that if something is legal in a signatory state, then it is legal across all signatory states. If A Frames are not legal in UK, which they are not, then they are not covered by the Vianna Convention and therefore local laws apply. In addition, Ireland, Spain, Malta, Cyprus, are either not signatories or have refused to ratify it. Ireland follows the UK in that A Frames are not illegal, rather than legal. The rest of the EU has for different national reasons stated that they are not legal on their roads, and can not be used.

The UK government has this to say:

Use of A-frame outside UK​

The views expressed above are only applicable for the UK. We understand that these view are not shared in other European countries and we would not recommend use of an A-frame outside the UK without some investigation of the rules that apply in the relevant country. We are unable to comment on, or enter into correspondence on, the situation in other countries as this will be governed by their domestic laws, together with the Vienna Convention.

We would remind users that the views expressed above relate solely to the technical requirements for a motor vehicle when being used with an A-frame. Users should satisfy themselves that they comply with all other aspects of road traffic law that may apply whether the towed vehicle is viewed as a trailer or as a motor vehicle.

Unless the UK government make a new regulation that applies specifically to the use of A Frames being legal, then such use falls outside the scope of Vienna (and the earlier Geneva Convention) and so local European nation laws apply. You can currently use A Frames in UK, and as I said, probably Ireland too. In Europe, you are literally at the whim of whether the local traffic Police are down on their targets that week.

We towed a car with robotised gearbox for a few years no problem although not keyless.
However our new manual car is keyless and tows a treat in towing mode ie temporary steering lock unlock a factory fitted facility

 

[TonyEmm]

We towed a car with robotised gearbox for a few years no problem although not keyless.
However our new manual car is keyless and tows a treat in towing mode ie temporary steering lock unlock a factory fitted facility

Which cars specifically?

 

[DDJC]

We towed a car with robotised gearbox for a few years no problem although not keyless.
However our new manual car is keyless and tows a treat in towing mode ie temporary steering lock unlock a factory fitted facility

Yet, put keyless and robotised together ...?
I am pleased that you didn't experience what happened to us. I think that the principle of taking a little runabout car abroad with you has a lot of merit, particularly if, like us, you stay longer in some locations. A Framing didn't work for reasons stated above, and the trailer was an unwieldly sod to use. The point for me is that the fitter lied just to make a sale. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ...
We now use a driveaway awning and the engine in the bus gets us around.

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[DDJC]

When we first had it fitted and went across to France, we were really worried and waiting to be stopped having heard all the horror stories (on here). We were on a main route when two police traffic motorcycles were behind us (with a small white van in-between us) and I could see that they had their blue lights flashing (and they could have used the other lane to overtake us) so we assumed they wanted us to stop.

At the soonest layby we pulled in (as did the white van) and stopped to wait for the inevitable. Only to see the two Gendarmes dismount their bikes and speak to the van driver. I just drove off thinking that was close, but heard no more of it.

We have seen numerous Gendarmes and municiple police overtake us, pass us, or we’ve passed them without incident in France. and passed police in Belgium without a problem, albeit we have restriced our use of the A-frame to France generally.

Not to say there will be a first time, but so far have the outfit has paid for itself in terms of hire cars and has been extremely convenient too.

Good news for you. However the point remains that under French law (not sure about Belgium), the use of A Frames by UK registered vehicles, is not covered by the Vienna or Geneva motoring conventions, because it is not specifically legal in UK. Whether the local Police are inclined to enforce it depends on the knowledge, mood, temperament and inclination of individual Police Officers. If they are in a good mood, and you are otherwise driving sensibly, they may simply ignore you. However, relying on whether Mr Police Officer did or didn't have a barney with Mrs Police Officer last night, isn't something I want to rely on.

 

[62272]

Good news for you. However the point remains that under French law (not sure about Belgium), the use of A Frames by UK registered vehicles, is not covered by the Vienna or Geneva motoring conventions, because it is not specifically legal in UK. Whether the local Police are inclined to enforce it depends on the knowledge, mood, temperament and inclination of individual Police Officers. If they are in a good mood, and you are otherwise driving sensibly, they may simply ignore you. However, relying on whether Mr Police Officer did or didn't have a barney with Mrs Police Officer last night, isn't something I want to rely on.

I think they have more important things to worry about. Its quite a niche offence why bother (obviously you may have a different view)

 

[TonyEmm]

Another update.

Today I spoke to LNB and the upgrade is required to the 13 pin socket to full function so that it trickle charges the tow car battery.

Unfortunately they can’t do anything until the end of May and we were planning to take it away end of April.
I spoke to an independent auto electrician (also booked until end of May) who seemed to think I wouldn’t be driving it far enough to drain the car battery whilst towing.
So the question is should I take a chance on towing if I can’t get the work done before we go away?

£200 to add a charging facility to existing 13pin electrics is a total rip-off IMHO!
All it needs is a £4 relay adding, and a power feed from MoHo battery…. The 13 pin Supply is, hopefully, already there.

I would add that the charging facility gives around 2amps supply at best, yet the electronic braking system draws up to 10.8amps!

 

[minesapint]

£200 to add a charging facility to existing 13pin electrics is a total rip-off IMHO!
All it needs is a £4 relay adding, and a power feed from MoHo battery…. The 13 pin Supply is, hopefully, already there.

I would add that the charging facility gives around 2amps supply at best, yet the electronic braking system draws up to 10.8amps!

Hello Trailer Tony.
What electronic braking system are you referring to.
Just asking for a friend .

 

[TonyEmm]

Hello Trailer Tony.
What electronic braking system are you referring to.
Just asking for a friend .

The one I’m referring to on this occasion is the Bristol based company, the one that many have referred to. However, it’s the same for all a-frame installations, electronic or not as from 2012, all should be wired on 13 pin electrics (If the TOAD is first registered after Oct 2012), when operational reversing lights became a requirement on braked trailers….

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[minesapint]

The one I’m referring to on this occasion is the Bristol based company, the one that many have referred to. However, it’s the same for all a-frame installations, electronic or not as from 2012, all should be wired on 13 pin electrics (If the TOAD is first registered after Oct 2012), when operational reversing lights became a requirement on braked trailers….

My electrical connection is by a 13 pin plug, the toad is only a couple of years old as is the MoHo, the superb electronic braking system does not draw any thing like 10.8 amps.
Having towed with a trailer and converted to a modern A Frame, I feel the safety factor with a properly made and fitted A Frame system to be far safer and far easier to use than a trailer, and a lot lighter to tow, without the agro of finding somewhere to put the trailer on site.

 

[Kups]

I think they have more important things to worry about. Its quite a niche offence why bother (obviously you may have a different view)

We travelled back from St Malo yesterday. Followed a toad into the passport line and onto the boat. We drove past at least 10 police persons from harbour entrance, nobody took any interest in the toad. Didn't speak to the owner but presume he had no police interest on his holiday either.

 

[Conniedriving]

We travelled back from St Malo yesterday. Followed a toad into the passport line and onto the boat. We drove past at least 10 police persons from harbour entrance, nobody took any interest in the toad. Didn't speak to the owner but presume he had no police interest on his holiday either.

Wait for it lol

 

[Conniedriving]

Good news for you. However the point remains that under French law (not sure about Belgium), the use of A Frames by UK registered vehicles, is not covered by the Vienna or Geneva motoring conventions, because it is not specifically legal in UK. Whether the local Police are inclined to enforce it depends on the knowledge, mood, temperament and inclination of individual Police Officers. If they are in a good mood, and you are otherwise driving sensibly, they may simply ignore you. However, relying on whether Mr Police Officer did or didn't have a barney with Mrs Police Officer last night, isn't something I want to rely on.

Not legal in the uk ? Please explain

 

[Conniedriving]

The one I’m referring to on this occasion is the Bristol based company, the one that many have referred to. However, it’s the same for all a-frame installations, electronic or not as from 2012, all should be wired on 13 pin electrics (If the TOAD is first registered after Oct 2012), when operational reversing lights became a requirement on braked trailers….

Who do you register the toad with ?

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[TonyEmm]

My electrical connection is by a 13 pin plug, the toad is only a couple of years old as is the MoHo, the superb electronic braking system does not draw any thing like 10.8 amps.
Having towed with a trailer and converted to a modern A Frame, I feel the safety factor with a properly made and fitted A Frame system to be far safer and far easier to use than a trailer, and a lot lighter to tow, without the agro of finding somewhere to put the trailer on site.

The information about the electrical system drawing 10.8amps was a response from https://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/braking/invisibrake/index.php themselves when I asked the question directly.