Towing a small car.

[AG 2602]

Hi All,
Some advise would be appreciated.
Never really wanted to tow a car behind the MH as we were always happy to walk out with the dog to wherever we needed to go.
However dog is now getting older so long walks of 6/7 miles are out of the question (especially hills). He can manage 4 miles on the flat (and he seems to enjoy it) with an hours rest in between which works OK but we miss the hills!!

We were planning either the Lakes or Scotland in Sept but feel we won't really see much. However if we had a small car then maybe we could drive further afield, and then do our walking at the top of hills rather than hiking up them.
We are already half way there as we have the following.

• Peugeot 107
• Tow bar already fitted to MH

Do people think this is a good move?
Anyone recommend a company near Bristol that could convert the car?

Alternatively we could spend all our holidays in Norfolk!!

 

[the1andonly]

Been told theres less need of a car over there and have we got the inclination or even towing capabilty of toad on trailer. And evolution to contend with , now we have electric bikes as well.

 

[Mike123]

UK is different to the EU re towing laws

 

[Kevan Gibbings]

I would also recommend Tow Bars 2 Tow Cars

Home

www.tow-bars2tow-cars.com

Great customer service.

 

[triky]

How things evolve - buy a motorhome, some time later, a car would be nice, buy a toad car to get from A-B.

Want to go abroad - Um that's a problem.

Then you end up buying a trailer and take the car on hols with us....... - Love it

Or you buy a " Concorde " or " Morelo " with the car in the back !!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[minesapint]

Hi All,
Some advise would be appreciated.
Never really wanted to tow a car behind the MH as we were always happy to walk out with the dog to wherever we needed to go.
However dog is now getting older so long walks of 6/7 miles are out of the question (especially hills). He can manage 4 miles on the flat (and he seems to enjoy it) with an hours rest in between which works OK but we miss the hills!!

We were planning either the Lakes or Scotland in Sept but feel we won't really see much. However if we had a small car then maybe we could drive further afield, and then do our walking at the top of hills rather than hiking up them.
We are already half way there as we have the following.

• Peugeot 107
• Tow bar already fitted to MH

Do people think this is a good move?
Anyone recommend a company near Bristol that could convert the car?

Alternatively we could spend all our holidays in Norfolk!!

Hi we tow a Hyundai i10 with a TowAFrame system, (0333 335 1020) https://towaframecom.business.site/
It is brilliant, lightweight, no Jockey wheel, full braking system and you can reverse it, unlike inertia braked systems.
I do not have any connection with the company apart from being a very satisfied customer.

 

[minesapint]

Or you buy a " Concorde " or " Morelo " with the car in the back !!

View attachment 747214

Hi a lot of people are towing their cars abroad, check out this site on Facebook== A Frames not Trailers in Europe
it is very informative.

 

[Platelet]

I find this very confusing, as when the car is being towed it’s the prime movers insurance that would be responsible for any 3rd party damage not the cars as it’s classed as a trailer. If the towed car was for example run into from behind, if it’s still attached, it’s the prime movers insurance responsibility not the cars. I used to do vehicle deliveries/collections of road legal cars/vans/motorcycles new and used with 18t and spec lift. The used vehicles were insured in their own right and not scrappers. The vehicle on the spec lift is exactly the same principle and it’s the responsibility of the prime mover.

 

[Platelet]

I find this very confusing, as when the car is being towed it’s the prime movers insurance that would be responsible for any 3rd party damage not the cars as it’s classed as a trailer. If the towed car was for example run into from behind, if it’s still attached, it’s the prime movers insurance responsibility not the cars. I used to do vehicle deliveries/collections of road legal cars/vans/motorcycles new and used with 18t and spec lift. The used vehicles were insured in their own right and not scrappers. The vehicle on the spec lift is exactly the same principle and it’s the responsibility of the prime mover.

 

[TonyEmm]

Hi a lot of people are towing their cars abroad, check out this site on Facebook== A Frames not Trailers in Europe
it is very informative.

That site is not informative at all! It’s administrated by a guy and his daughter who, while passionate about a-framing, refuse to accept that EU regs, UNECE regs, the French ‘Code de la Route’ and ‘Instrucción 08/V-74’ from the Spanish DoT to the Guardia Civil all outlaw the a-frame towing of cars.
His group (of less than 100 members) refuse to allow discussion of towing with a trailer…. A much better group (with almost 4000 members) would be https://www.facebook.com/groups/921897484990172. It allows rational discussion on all aspects of transporting a car…

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[TonyEmm]

I find this very confusing, as when the car is being towed it’s the prime movers insurance that would be responsible for any 3rd party damage not the cars as it’s classed as a trailer. If the towed car was for example run into from behind, if it’s still attached, it’s the prime movers insurance responsibility not the cars.

I disagree with your last sentence! The prime mover’s insurance (I.e. the motorhome) are required to cover the ‘trailer’ third party, while attached to the vehicle.
An impact from behind wouldn’t constitute third party damage.

it’s imperative that the car’s insurers are aware it’s being towed and have agreed to cover it fully comp, otherwise, you’re relying on the insurance of the person that struck you…

 

[minesapint]

That site is not informative at all! It’s administrated by a guy and his daughter who, while passionate about a-framing, refuse to accept that EU regs, UNECE regs, the French ‘Code de la Route’ and ‘Instrucción 08/V-74’ from the Spanish DoT to the Guardia Civil all outlaw the a-frame towing of cars.
His group (of less than 100 members) refuse to allow discussion of towing with a trailer…. A much better group (with almost 4000 members) would be https://www.facebook.com/groups/921897484990172. It allows rational discussion on all aspects of transporting a car…

The site is very informative, many people tow abroad with proper a frames and the many pictures and videos on the site show the police totally ignoring them. A French company is now manufacturing and fitting A Frames in Europe, and they state it is CE approved.
Please read on.


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CONTACT US

Blue System offers youthe frame to tow!​

Blue 4 system : car coupling available everywhere in France CE approved at European level and usable worldwide​

 

[TonyEmm]

The site is very informative, many people tow abroad with proper a frames and the many pictures and videos on the site show the police totally ignoring them. A French company is now manufacturing and fitting A Frames in Europe, and they state it is CE approved.
Please read on.

05 63 72 38 79
OUR SPARE PARTS

• WELCOME
• THE STORY
• THE BLUE SYSTEM 4
• APPROVED CENTERS
• PRICES AND ORDERS
• FAQS
• NEWS
• CONTACT

Take your car with youTHANKS TO THE BLUE SYSTEM, IT IS POSSIBLE
CONTACT US

Blue System offers youthe frame to tow!​

Blue 4 system : car coupling available everywhere in France CE approved at European level and usable worldwide​

You have highlighted the misinformation being provided!
That system is certainly manufactured in France, in the same Dept as where my son lives, but, it is NOT EC type approved. No such approval exists…
The only component that is type approved is the coupling head, manufactured in Germany by Alko.
This is yet another example of a false claim by an a-frame manufacturer.
if you doubt my POV, ask them to supply a copy of the certificate…

 

[minesapint]

You have highlighted the misinformation being provided!
That system is certainly manufactured in France, in the same Dept as where my son lives, but, it is NOT EC type approved. No such approval exists…
The only component that is type approved is the coupling head, manufactured in Germany by Alko.
This is yet another example of a false claim by an a-frame manufacturer.
if you doubt my POV, ask them to supply a copy of the certificate…

Why are you so anti A Frame ??, if people want the freedom without the agro of a trailer, what is your problem. We have towed ours all over with a new system fitted to the new Toad last year, no probs what so ever.

 

[TonyEmm]

Why are you so anti A Frame ??, if people want the freedom without the agro of a trailer, what is your problem. We have towed ours all over with a new system fitted to the new Toad last year, no probs what so ever.

I’m not anti a-frame, I’m anti the fact that folk like yourself, Mr Hunt and Ms Cogger (joint admins of the aforementioned group) persist in providing misleading info to newbies even after they have been presented with the facts!

When one member of another FB group had been stopped and fined in France, Mr Hunt refused to accept that legislation existed and insisted the user had committed some other misdemeanour to attract the attention of the gendarmerie. His suggestion was that he’d not been carrying a spare wheel as that was (he said) a requirement. He was wrong. I pointed it out and he changed his mind saying it applied to Spain! He was wrong again….
Mr Hunt has his own distorted version of regulations but insists on foisting them on others.

In one post, he condemned inertia couplings as being totally unsuitable for light trailers, saying he’d spent £8k converting his Ifor Williams (which is EC type approved with inertia brakes) to air brakes, yet, ask him what a-frame he uses and it’s a KayTow, which would you believe, is inertia braked! He has his own double standards…

No matter how many years you may have got away with a-framing, it doesn’t change the legislation!


I note you’ve sidestepped producing evidence of the claimed EC type approval

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[TonyEmm]

Hi we tow a Hyundai i10 with a TowAFrame system, (0333 335 1020) https://towaframecom.business.site/
It is brilliant, lightweight, no Jockey wheel, full braking system and you can reverse it, unlike inertia braked systems.
I do not have any connection with the company apart from being a very satisfied customer.

At least You’ve gone for what I believe to be the best system available in the U.K…. Mike Northeast (director of Towaframe) is one of the few people I’ve come across in the industry as having a moral conscience.

 

[minesapint]

I’m not anti a-frame, I’m anti the fact that folk like yourself, Mr Hunt and Ms Cogger (joint admins of the aforementioned group) persist in providing misleading info to newbies even after they have been presented with the facts!

When one member of another FB group had been stopped and fined in France, Mr Hunt refused to accept that legislation existed and insisted the user had committed some other misdemeanour to attract the attention of the gendarmerie. His suggestion was that he’d not been carrying a spare wheel as that was (he said) a requirement. He was wrong. I pointed it out and he changed his mind saying it applied to Spain! He was wrong again….
Mr Hunt has his own distorted version of regulations but insists on foisting them on others.

In one post, he condemned inertia couplings as being totally unsuitable for light trailers, saying he’d spent £8k converting his Ifor Williams (which is EC type approved with inertia brakes) to air brakes, yet, ask him what a-frame he uses and it’s a KayTow, which would you believe, is inertia braked! He has his own double standards…

No matter how many years you may have got away with a-framing, it doesn’t change the legislation!


I note you’ve sidestepped producing evidence of the claimed EC type approval

I think even if a certificate was produced by the French company, you would find some reason to say it applied only to a trailer.
They have been producing and fitting A frames for eighteen years and have fitting stations all over France, if it was illegal in France maybe they would have been closed down in the eighteen years they have been going.
As for Ifor Williams trailer conversion that you shout about, I know nothing of this application, my interest is only for MoHo and my method of towing my car, which I find very satisfactory, and will not change it.
And if I am happy with it, why should you be so vitriolic in condemning it, it does not affect you in any way, so let us just get on with our lives and enjoy travel.

 

[TonyEmm]

I think even if a certificate was produced by the French company, you would find some reason to say it applied only to a trailer.
They have been producing and fitting A frames for eighteen years and have fitting stations all over France, if it was illegal in France maybe they would have been closed down in the eighteen years they have been going.
As for Ifor Williams trailer conversion that you shout about, I know nothing of this application, my interest is only for MoHo and my method of towing my car, which I find very satisfactory, and will not change it.
And if I am happy with it, why should you be so vitriolic in condemning it, it does not affect you in any way, so let us just get on with our lives and enjoy travel.

The simple fact is that the supplying company, be it French or British, is doing nothing wrong. It’s the user that contravenes the regs.

If you, or Systemé Bleu 4 can produce a genuine type approval certificate for an a-frame towed car as a trailer, I will happily accept it, it will be a European first!

where have I shown Vitriol? I am pointing out the rules as they exist. If that varies with how you see things then that’s your issue, not mine!

 

[Yorkshireimp]

For our small dog (shih tzu) we use a rucksack - originally a basic dog specific one from Amazon, now we've modified a good quality child carrier as it has a far better back system (from a proper rucksack manufacturer, so fully adjustable). He can stand and look out, or curl up and go to sleep.
The means we can walk as far as we want, and when he's had enough or wants a rest he can get in the sack and I'll carry him. He's going blind, so finds it stressful to be in places with lots of people (like towns) even when he's not tired - the rucksack lets him come with us everywhere and if he is walking tail down we offer the bag to him; he'll sometimes stand up to be lifted in, other times he'll want to continue walking and walk around it. His choice! It's also really nice as he can put his head up by mine, and I can talk to him as we go.

Probably not ideal for a larger dog though, unless you are particularly strong.

Hi do you have a picture of your modified carrier as we have a shihtzu and she’s getting older now
Thanks

 

[DDJC]

I’m not anti a-frame, I’m anti the fact that folk like yourself, Mr Hunt and Ms Cogger (joint admins of the aforementioned group) persist in providing misleading info to newbies even after they have been presented with the facts!

When one member of another FB group had been stopped and fined in France, Mr Hunt refused to accept that legislation existed and insisted the user had committed some other misdemeanour to attract the attention of the gendarmerie. His suggestion was that he’d not been carrying a spare wheel as that was (he said) a requirement. He was wrong. I pointed it out and he changed his mind saying it applied to Spain! He was wrong again….
Mr Hunt has his own distorted version of regulations but insists on foisting them on others.

In one post, he condemned inertia couplings as being totally unsuitable for light trailers, saying he’d spent £8k converting his Ifor Williams (which is EC type approved with inertia brakes) to air brakes, yet, ask him what a-frame he uses and it’s a KayTow, which would you believe, is inertia braked! He has his own double standards…

No matter how many years you may have got away with a-framing, it doesn’t change the legislation!


I note you’ve sidestepped producing evidence of the claimed EC type approval

I AM anti A Frame.

I used a well known company (not saying which) to fit an A Frame to our little car. I specifically asked :

a) was their system suitable for our car (which had push button start and an automated manual transmission gear box), and
b) was their system legal in Europe

To both questions I was told yes. We duly paid our two grand.

So, to the first question.
Lie. Our car isn't suitable to be fitted with, and towed on an A Frame. Literally only two miles into a Whitsun trip, just made it to the M25, and we had to stop with smoke pouring out of our tow car. You can't pull a robotiscised gearbox car. The damage? A hole in the engine block. Four thousand quid and new engine later, we figured that it was us, not the system. Not so. In Ireland, once again, a mile down the road the MH was pulling badly. Pulled over and decoupled. Drove it separately and it cost us another four hundred quid on the ferry for a second vehicle.

Why did this happen? Seems like the electronic buggering about, made the car start, because you have to release the steering lock. My local garage said that absolutely no way was our car suitable for an A Frame. The fitter lied - or didn't know their job. Or both. We ended up buying a Woodford Lwt trailer which although a nuisance to load/unload, served us well.

Second question.
Lie. It is NOT legal in Europe. After I found out the definitive law (and once understood, it is very very clear), I re-read the fitters FAQ. He carefully negotiates the most important question "Is towing a car on an A frame legal in Europe". The FAQ goes on about the United Nations Vienna Convention 1968 whereby if a vehicle is legal in its home country ("The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration") then it is legal in any country that has signed and ratified the Vienna Convention. No problem so far? OK, but is the A Frame legal in the United Kingdom?

No it isn't. It is not a crime to use an A Frame in UK, but it definitely isn't 'legal'. The use of A Frames in UK is simply 'not illegal', because the Dept of Transport has never ruled either way. The Vienna Convention is very clear in Chapter 3 that if something is legal in a signatory state, then it is legal across all signatory states. If A Frames are not legal in UK, which they are not, then they are not covered by the Vianna Convention and therefore local laws apply. In addition, Ireland, Spain, Malta, Cyprus, are either not signatories or have refused to ratify it. Ireland follows the UK in that A Frames are not illegal, rather than legal. The rest of the EU has for different national reasons stated that they are not legal on their roads, and can not be used.

The UK government has this to say:

Use of A-frame outside UK​

The views expressed above are only applicable for the UK. We understand that these view are not shared in other European countries and we would not recommend use of an A-frame outside the UK without some investigation of the rules that apply in the relevant country. We are unable to comment on, or enter into correspondence on, the situation in other countries as this will be governed by their domestic laws, together with the Vienna Convention.

We would remind users that the views expressed above relate solely to the technical requirements for a motor vehicle when being used with an A-frame. Users should satisfy themselves that they comply with all other aspects of road traffic law that may apply whether the towed vehicle is viewed as a trailer or as a motor vehicle.

Unless the UK government make a new regulation that applies specifically to the use of A Frames being legal, then such use falls outside the scope of Vienna (and the earlier Geneva Convention) and so local European nation laws apply. You can currently use A Frames in UK, and as I said, probably Ireland too. In Europe, you are literally at the whim of whether the local traffic Police are down on their targets that week.

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[mofurt]

Hi do you have a picture of your modified carrier as we have a shihtzu and she’s getting older now
Thanks

Our first one was similar to (but not exactly) this:-
Amazon product ASIN B07N5D91SWIt is big enough for him to curl up and lie down in, and has a leash attached at the base that attaches to his harness so he can't climb/fall out. The problem was that it wasn't designed well as a rucksack; the hard base dug into my waist, and the shoulder straps weren't ideal. Did a lot of miles with it though.

This is the new one. It's a Macpac Vamoose; Macpac are a proper walking brand, so the adjustable back system is very well thought out and comfortable. in this picture the waist band isn't fitted as we were still adjusting things. The modification was to make an inner bag that covers the entire area where the child would sit (the entire red area in the picture now has a second layer sewn on top that is an open topped bag)- so there are now solid sides where the kid's legs would come through - we also removed the upper part of the child harness and attached a tether for his dog harness at the bottom (clipped to existing fittings). He can curl up in it, or stand up like this and look over my shoulder, but can't climb or fall out. This bag also has a large compartment at the bottom under the child seat, which is big enough for our coats or to do a small shop. It also has a removable small daypack zipped into it, (behind the dog) - originally I'm guessing this would have been for use as a changing bag, but it is useful for holding more stuff or using as a shopping bag. I don't have a specific picture of the mods at the moment, but it's pretty straightforward and obvious if you can sew; you just need to make it so the dog can't slide out of the leg holes!

The only problem with this is that it is physically quite large to store; the Amazon one above would fold up flat, this one doesn't. It will fold up a bit, but still takes a lot of room.

 

[AG 2602]

Hi we tow a Hyundai i10 with a TowAFrame system, (0333 335 1020) https://towaframecom.business.site/
It is brilliant, lightweight, no Jockey wheel, full braking system and you can reverse it, unlike inertia braked systems.
I do not have any connection with the company apart from being a very satisfied customer.

Reverse as long as it’s in a straight line! A 3 point turn would be tricky!!

 

[triky]

NOT at all. If you have the space it is possible to turn in ANY direction including straight .A pair of 'bungy' cords attached to the steering spokes on both sides when the wheels are straight & hooked under the seat squab, enables you to reverse in ANY direction & round corners just like a caravan or boat trailer etc .I reversed my 'Smart' behind the 'Autocruise' MANY times as such. !!

 

[TonyEmm]

NOT at all. If you have the space it is possible to turn in ANY direction including straight .A pair of 'bungy' cords attached to the steering spokes on both sides when the wheels are straight & hooked under the seat squab, enables you to reverse in ANY direction & round corners just like a caravan or boat trailer etc .I reversed my 'Smart' behind the 'Autocruise' MANY times as such. !!

You mean like this?

 

[AG 2602]

I’ll have to find a large field to practice in!!
To be honest next time we plan a trip where the roads look a bit dodgy we’ll unhitch and drive independently to the site.

All in all though a very positive experience and I’m pleased we made the purchase

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[minesapint]

Reverse as long as it’s in a straight line! A 3 point turn would be tricky!!

Yes, Straight line not to much of a problem, three point turn ,
Enjoy your travels with your toad, just getting ours ready to hitch up and go.

 

[minesapint]

I AM anti A Frame.

I used a well known company (not saying which) to fit an A Frame to our little car. I specifically asked :

a) was their system suitable for our car (which had push button start and an automated manual transmission gear box), and
b) was their system legal in Europe

To both questions I was told yes. We duly paid our two grand.

So, to the first question.
Lie. Our car isn't suitable to be fitted with, and towed on an A Frame. Literally only two miles into a Whitsun trip, just made it to the M25, and we had to stop with smoke pouring out of our tow car. You can't pull a robotiscised gearbox car. The damage? A hole in the engine block. Four thousand quid and new engine later, we figured that it was us, not the system. Not so. In Ireland, once again, a mile down the road the MH was pulling badly. Pulled over and decoupled. Drove it separately and it cost us another four hundred quid on the ferry for a second vehicle.

Why did this happen? Seems like the electronic buggering about, made the car start, because you have to release the steering lock. My local garage said that absolutely no way was our car suitable for an A Frame. The fitter lied - or didn't know their job. Or both. We ended up buying a Woodford Lwt trailer which although a nuisance to load/unload, served us well.

Second question.
Lie. It is NOT legal in Europe. After I found out the definitive law (and once understood, it is very very clear), I re-read the fitters FAQ. He carefully negotiates the most important question "Is towing a car on an A frame legal in Europe". The FAQ goes on about the United Nations Vienna Convention 1968 whereby if a vehicle is legal in its home country ("The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration") then it is legal in any country that has signed and ratified the Vienna Convention. No problem so far? OK, but is the A Frame legal in the United Kingdom?

No it isn't. It is not a crime to use an A Frame in UK, but it definitely isn't 'legal'. The use of A Frames in UK is simply 'not illegal', because the Dept of Transport has never ruled either way. The Vienna Convention is very clear in Chapter 3 that if something is legal in a signatory state, then it is legal across all signatory states. If A Frames are not legal in UK, which they are not, then they are not covered by the Vianna Convention and therefore local laws apply. In addition, Ireland, Spain, Malta, Cyprus, are either not signatories or have refused to ratify it. Ireland follows the UK in that A Frames are not illegal, rather than legal. The rest of the EU has for different national reasons stated that they are not legal on their roads, and can not be used.

The UK government has this to say:

Use of A-frame outside UK​

The views expressed above are only applicable for the UK. We understand that these view are not shared in other European countries and we would not recommend use of an A-frame outside the UK without some investigation of the rules that apply in the relevant country. We are unable to comment on, or enter into correspondence on, the situation in other countries as this will be governed by their domestic laws, together with the Vienna Convention.

We would remind users that the views expressed above relate solely to the technical requirements for a motor vehicle when being used with an A-frame. Users should satisfy themselves that they comply with all other aspects of road traffic law that may apply whether the towed vehicle is viewed as a trailer or as a motor vehicle.

Unless the UK government make a new regulation that applies specifically to the use of A Frames being legal, then such use falls outside the scope of Vienna (and the earlier Geneva Convention) and so local European nation laws apply. You can currently use A Frames in UK, and as I said, probably Ireland too. In Europe, you are literally at the whim of whether the local traffic Police are down on their targets that week.

Our Honda Jazz had an automated manual transmission, and the only time I towed it in gear, I admitted it was my problem for not selecting neutral, but it was obvious in the MoHo that it was in gear so I stopped after a few yards, no damage done. If you put the automated manual into neutral it was fine. We towed it many many miles.

 

[DDJC]

Our Honda Jazz had an automated manual transmission, and the only time I towed it in gear, I admitted it was my problem for not selecting neutral, but it was obvious in the MoHo that it was in gear so I stopped after a few yards, no damage done. If you put the automated manual into neutral it was fine. We towed it many many miles.

Ours was in manual both times when we set off. We are completely certain of this.
I don't know why we had issues, just that we did and I won't risk it again.

And, we mostly go to Europe so they aren't allowed.

 

[DDJC]

Yes, Straight line not to much of a problem, three point turn ,
Enjoy your travels with your toad, just getting ours ready to hitch up and go.

And even if the Gendarmes pull you over, you wouldn't tell us would you?

 

[minesapint]

Ours was in manual both times when we set off. We are completely certain of this.
I don't know why we had issues, just that we did and I won't risk it again.

And, we mostly go to Europe so they aren't allowed.

We have done most of our touring in Europe as well no problems, apart from following a two wheel trailer which was snaking all over the road.
We got past easily as the toad tows very well with no snaking.
Enjoy your touring, we all have likes and dislikes, easy ways and complicated ways.

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[TonyEmm]

We have done most of our touring in Europe as well no problems, apart from following a two wheel trailer which was snaking all over the road.
We got past easily as the toad tows very well with no snaking.
Enjoy your touring, we all have likes and dislikes, easy ways and complicated ways.

It’s fair to say a badly loaded trailer can be a very unstable beast! Just watch the numerous caravans heading south west down the M5!
I keep well clear of many!