Towing a small car.

[AG 2602]

Hi All,
Some advise would be appreciated.
Never really wanted to tow a car behind the MH as we were always happy to walk out with the dog to wherever we needed to go.
However dog is now getting older so long walks of 6/7 miles are out of the question (especially hills). He can manage 4 miles on the flat (and he seems to enjoy it) with an hours rest in between which works OK but we miss the hills!!

We were planning either the Lakes or Scotland in Sept but feel we won't really see much. However if we had a small car then maybe we could drive further afield, and then do our walking at the top of hills rather than hiking up them.
We are already half way there as we have the following.

• Peugeot 107
• Tow bar already fitted to MH

Do people think this is a good move?
Anyone recommend a company near Bristol that could convert the car?

Alternatively we could spend all our holidays in Norfolk!!

 

[TonyEmm]

Who do you register the toad with ?

I am referring to the date of first registration of the car being towed.

However, as you’ve mentioned ‘TOAD registration’, any towed car that has the front extensively modified (as in adding a fabrication or replacing the crash protection beam) should be notified to DVLA as a ‘radically altered’ vehicle. This may then be subject to IVA inspection and re-registration. It is the owner‘s responsibility to do this, not the suppliers.

 

[minesapint]

The information about the electrical system drawing 10.8amps was a response from https://www.roadmasterinc.com/products/braking/invisibrake/index.php themselves when I asked the question directly.

That is their system, others do not draw anything like that.
We have towed our Hyundai i10 many thousands of miles, no problem, no battery drain, and no blasted trailer to hide when on site.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Not legal in the uk ? Please explain

He's wrong.
In the UK if something isn't illegal then it is de-facto legal.
As towing a car on an A-Frame hasn't been tested in a UK court, no judgement has been made, so use of an A-Frame is not illegal

As I understand French law, it is the reverse.
Until a judgement has been made to make something legal, it is by definition, illegal

 

[minesapint]

Not legal in the uk ? Please explain

It is perfectly legal to tow a car/trailer with an A frame, providing it has a full braking system fitted, such as ==

SmartBox DUO​

No self-contained system applies brakes faster than the SmartBox DUO.
Simple on/off sequence for TOWING, our dedicated vacuum unit provides the power braking, fast – responsive and powerful Pneumatic brake actuator, Using our unique dual signal activation means the Smart-DUO system intelligently brakes – proportionately and only when braking is required. These features combine to provide the most powerful easy to use system available today that meets the braking capacity AND Auto Reverse requirements of the Construction & Use Regulations and European Community Directive 71/320/EEC

And the system has been manufactured and fitted by a competent company and fitter, such as TowAframe, in Sussex.

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[AG 2602]

I've had enough, I'm going old school just ordered a tow rope!!

 

[DDJC]

Not legal in the uk ? Please explain

It goes like this. Even if A Frames are not illegal to use in the UK, the UK government has not formally made their use legal. There is difference between illegal and not legal, particularly when interpreting A Frame use.

The UK government will not legislate specifically about the legality of A Frames and instead faffs around with the 'Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 Act' and the 'Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989' and takes the position that when a Vehicle is coupled to another by an A Frame, they become one vehicle.

This is the nuanced sticking point for using A Frames in Europe. Because the government does not specifically legalise the use of A Frames, using one in Europe is not covered by the Vienna Convention, whereby any vehicle set up that is legal in a signatory country, becomes a legal vehicle in all signatory countries EVEN IF, the foreign country does not allow its own citizens to use an A Frame.

 

[DDJC]

It is perfectly legal to tow a car/trailer with an A frame, providing it has a full braking system fitted, such as ==

SmartBox DUO​

No self-contained system applies brakes faster than the SmartBox DUO.
Simple on/off sequence for TOWING, our dedicated vacuum unit provides the power braking, fast – responsive and powerful Pneumatic brake actuator, Using our unique dual signal activation means the Smart-DUO system intelligently brakes – proportionately and only when braking is required. These features combine to provide the most powerful easy to use system available today that meets the braking capacity AND Auto Reverse requirements of the Construction & Use Regulations and European Community Directive 71/320/EEC

And the system has been manufactured and fitted by a competent company and fitter, such as TowAframe, in Sussex.

No, I don't agree. It is just not illegal. There is a difference. This subject has been kicked to death in so many other MHF forum threads - I thought everyone knew this by now!

The A Frame companies may tell you that it is legal (purely to make a sale), but it isn't. It is only not illegal. The government will not formally make a decision on A Frame legality, so it sidesteps it by saying that two such vehicle connected become one vehicle.

If you were correct, then the Vienna convention would apply and convention signatories would have to accept that UK A frame users could tow with them. They don't, because the UK Government has not made A Frame use legal.

 

[DDJC]

He's wrong.
In the UK if something isn't illegal then it is de-facto legal.
As towing a car on an A-Frame hasn't been tested in a UK court, no judgement has been made, so use of an A-Frame is not illegal

As I understand French law, it is the reverse.
Until a judgement has been made to make something legal, it is by definition, illegal

I wrote to the Department of Transport and the answer I received is what I have said. Until the Government actually say that it is legal, it isn't. As you correctly say, it is not illegal, but until the Government actually say it is legal, the Vienna Convention won't honour it. And it is entirely because the Vienna Convention follows what you say above - "Until a judgement has been made to make something legal, it is by definition, illegal".

I know this sounds like semantics, but write to them yourselves and check.

BTW, I used an A Frame for two years. I could use it again tomorrow as we still have the car and the frame. I used it in the knowledge that although it has not been formally legalised, it was not in any way illegal to use in the UK. I reiterate, there is nothing illegal about using an A Frame in UK (as long as braking, power and secondary cables are complied with).

 

[minesapint]

No, I don't agree. It is just not illegal. There is a difference. This subject has been kicked to death in so many other MHF forum threads - I thought everyone knew this by now!

The A Frame companies may tell you that it is legal (purely to make a sale), but it isn't. It is only not illegal. The government will not formally make a decision on A Frame legality, so it sidesteps it by saying that two such vehicle connected become one vehicle.

If you were correct, then the Vienna convention would apply and convention signatories would have to accept that UK A frame users could tow with them. They don't, because the UK Government has not made A Frame use legal.

Whatever

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[Conniedriving]

I am referring to the date of first registration of the car being towed.

However, as you’ve mentioned ‘TOAD registration’, any towed car that has the front extensively modified (as in adding a fabrication or replacing the crash protection beam) should be notified to DVLA as a ‘radically altered’ vehicle. This may then be subject to IVA inspection and re-registration. It is the owner‘s responsibility to do this, not the suppliers.

Were on the DVLA website does it say that

 

[Conniedriving]

Were on the DVLA website does it say that

You used the word registered which is rubbish you don’t have to inform them that you had a Aframe fitted and as a toad as keep referring

 

[Larrynwin]

Whenever this subject arises it seems the same objector offers his expert negative opinion.
I have an RViBrake unit which never creates a problem as far as draw on the battery is concerned, I don’t have a charge link from the motorhome and have not ended with a battery problem at the end of any trip however long.

 

[TonyEmm]

Were on the DVLA website does it say that

It says it in an email I received from the Department for Transport…. « the guidance on the GOV.UK website is clear that any modification to the chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame would class the vehicle as radically altered and these changes should be notified to the DVLA. Although a reputable installer should inform the customer of this requirement before undertaking the work, ultimately it is the responsibility of the owner to inform the DVLA of any changes to their vehicle. »

Is that sufficient for you or do you want more?

 

[TonyEmm]

That is their system, others do not draw anything like that.
We have towed our Hyundai i10 many thousands of miles, no problem, no battery drain, and no blasted trailer to hide when on site.

All the electronic systems draw at least a similar current. It’s the nature of the beast.

Every time the brakes are activated, a vacuum pump (or similar) activates to simulate the servo working. That draws a lot of current from the TOAD’s battery. Some systems supply a trickle charge from the MoHo to help offset that, others don’t!

Do you know what current your system draws when the brakes operate? Have you been told? Have you asked?

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[TonyEmm]

You used the word registered which is rubbish you don’t have to inform them that you had a Aframe fitted and as a toad as keep referring

Refer back to my post, https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/towing-a-small-car.281398/post-5676610. As you’re being pedantic, substitute ‘TOAD’ for ‘car being towed’…. You do accept all cars have to be registered?

Reversing lights on cat O2 trailers became a legal requirement in Oct 2012. Any a-frame fitted after that date, thereby converting the car to a Cat O2 trailer would need operational reversing lights and therefore, 13 pin electrics.

 

[minesapint]

Hi All,
Some advise would be appreciated.
Never really wanted to tow a car behind the MH as we were always happy to walk out with the dog to wherever we needed to go.
However dog is now getting older so long walks of 6/7 miles are out of the question (especially hills). He can manage 4 miles on the flat (and he seems to enjoy it) with an hours rest in between which works OK but we miss the hills!!

We were planning either the Lakes or Scotland in Sept but feel we won't really see much. However if we had a small car then maybe we could drive further afield, and then do our walking at the top of hills rather than hiking up them.
We are already half way there as we have the following.

• Peugeot 107
• Tow bar already fitted to MH

Do people think this is a good move?
Anyone recommend a company near Bristol that could convert the car?

Alternatively we could spend all our holidays in Norfolk!!

Refer back to my post, https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/towing-a-small-car.281398/post-5676610. As you’re being pedantic, substitute ‘TOAD’ for ‘car being towed’…. You do accept all cars have to be registered?

Reversing lights on cat O2 trailers became a legal requirement in Oct 2012. Any a-frame fitted after that date, thereby converting the car to a Cat O2 trailer would need operational reversing lights and therefore, 13 pin electrics.

Whenever this subject arises it seems the same objector offers his expert negative opinion.
I have an RViBrake unit which never creates a problem as far as draw on the battery is concerned, I don’t have a charge link from the motorhome and have not ended with a battery problem at the end of any trip however long.

I concur we have the vacuum operated system with no electrical power link to the MoHo. We have never had a problem with a depleted battery. But I fear you are wasting the time with the trailer nutcase, So negative with any other view apart from his own.
He constantly posts negative thoughts on facebook. A good site to chek out is == A Frames not Trailers in Europe. Lots of people tow on an A frame in EU and no real problems, it is worth following, I have tried trailers and A frames, the A frame is far better for towing than a two wheel trailer that is liable to start wandering around behind you.

 

[TonyEmm]

Whenever this subject arises it seems the same objector offers his expert negative opinion.
I have an RViBrake unit which never creates a problem as far as draw on the battery is concerned, I don’t have a charge link from the motorhome and have not ended with a battery problem at the end of any trip however long.

The owners manual of the Towmaster2 invisibrake states 10.8 amps maximum draw.

https://www.roadmasterinc.com/pdf/85-4737.pdf

An email from Demco states “

1. The system takes about 13 amps when the system is called to brake the towed. If the system is not braking the towed it takes no voltage at all.

Thanks
Brian Van Der Vliet
SBS Product Coordinator
http://www.demco-products.com/ ”

I can’t comment on the RVI system you have as, AFAIK, it was only installed for a short period by Towtal but I stand to be corrected on that!

 

[TonyEmm]

I concur we have the vacuum operated system with no electrical power link to the MoHo. We have never had a problem with a depleted battery. But I fear you are wasting the time with the trailer nutcase, So negative with any other view apart from his own.
He constantly posts negative thoughts on facebook. A good site to chek out is == A Frames not Trailers in Europe. Lots of people tow on an A frame in EU and no real problems, it is worth following, I have tried trailers and A frames, the A frame is far better for towing than a two wheel trailer that is liable to start wandering around behind you.

If you wish to stick your head in the sand, so be it, it’s your prerogative!
However, flat batteries (and the cause of) is a hotly debated topic on FB a-frame groups…

Typically though, because it’s not something you’ve come across personally, then it’s a non existent issue!

 

[minesapint]

If you wish to stick your head in the sand, so be it, it’s your prerogative!
However, flat batteries (and the cause of) is a hotly debated topic on FB a-frame groups…

Typically though, because it’s not something you’ve come across personally, then it’s a non existent issue!

My head is certainly not in the sand, well not as much as yours.
It is certainly not debated in any group I have looked at, as the modern system used virtually nothing, 500 miles towed no electrical power input from moho, car starts first time no problem.
Why are you so negative.

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[Conniedriving]

I concur we have the vacuum operated system with no electrical power link to the MoHo. We have never had a problem with a depleted battery. But I fear you are wasting the time with the trailer nutcase, So negative with any other view apart from his own.
He constantly posts negative thoughts on facebook. A good site to chek out is == A Frames not Trailers in Europe. Lots of people tow on an A frame in EU and no real problems, it is worth following, I have tried trailers and A frames, the A frame is far better for towing than a two wheel trailer that is liable to start wandering around behind

 

[Larrynwin]

The owners manual of the Towmaster2 invisibrake states 10.8 amps maximum draw.

https://www.roadmasterinc.com/pdf/85-4737.pdf

An email from Demco states “

1. The system takes about 13 amps when the system is called to brake the towed. If the system is not braking the towed it takes no voltage at all.

Thanks
Brian Van Der Vliet
SBS Product Coordinator
http://www.demco-products.com/ ”

I can’t comment on the RVI system you have as, AFAIK, it was only installed for a short period by Towtal but I stand to be corrected on that!

I have used the RViBrake on our toad for some 10 years with no problem since buying it direct from the manufacturer.
The figure of 10.8 amp draw, if that is the figure , will only be the case when the unit is actually braking and I can monitor actual braking time on the remote unit in the towing vehicle.
The large current draw quoted is a negative distraction from a good system used across the US as it constitutes a very small period in any journey and as I have said has never caused a problem.

 

[Conniedriving]

They will not let him join that site for that very reason

 

[TonyEmm]

My head is certainly not in the sand, well not as much as yours.
It is certainly not debated in any group I have looked at, as the modern system used virtually nothing, 500 miles towed no electrical power input from moho, car starts first time no problem.
Why are you so negative.

Whatever!!
you’re obviously not a member of https://www.facebook.com/groups/921...382876107740&notif_t=group_activity&ref=notif then!

 

[Flightlevel55]

Another shout for LNB in Bristol, excellent customer service. We have a little Fiat Abarth with their A Frame fitted.

Hi I’ve just bought an Abarth 595, was yours costly to get converted and did they leave any sticky out bits on the front or does it look normal without the a frame on. What braking system did you have?
Bought our Abarth with a view to converting it soon if I can find a decent place to do it near warrington.

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[TonyEmm]

I have used the RViBrake on our toad for some 10 years with no problem since buying it direct from the manufacturer.
The figure of 10.8 amp draw, if that is the figure , will only be the case when the unit is actually braking and I can monitor actual braking time on the remote unit in the towing vehicle.
The large current draw quoted is a negative distraction from a good system used across the US as it constitutes a very small period in any journey and as I have said has never caused a problem.

That depends on your driving style!
Next time you stop at a set of traffic lights, check the queue in front and see how many vehicles have their brakelights on constantly.
We all know it’s not the way to do it, but most do!

 

[minesapint]

That depends on your driving style!
Next time you stop at a set of traffic lights, check the queue in front and see how many vehicles have their brakelights on constantly.
We all know it’s not the way to do it, but most do!

Your knowledge is once again, behind the times, and your bias. The dual sensing system will only work if there is inertia, if the vehicle is stopped the braking assistance also stops, the Moho holds position, so no probs, no power drain.
Please try and keep up.
As to your reference to the, A Frames site, thanks for that I have now joined.
It is interesting to see how many people are using their sensible A frames in the EU.

 

[Captain Birdseye]

Is the tow bar designed and rated strong to tow a small car - If it’s a standard tow bar I suspect it would need to be replaced with something stronger ? That plus car conversion plus insurance company will need to know.

Could end up being quite a chunky investment …!

Ours was no problem. Tow bar supplied and fitted with reinforcement to chassis. Smart ForFour mo

dified with stronger sub frame at the front, and Aframe built and supplied by https://armitages.uk/

 

[Conniedriving]

I am referring to the date of first registration of the car being towed.

However, as you’ve mentioned ‘TOAD registration’, any towed car that has the front extensively modified (as in adding a fabrication or replacing the crash protection beam) should be notified to DVLA as a ‘radically altered’ vehicle. This may then be subject to IVA inspection and re-registration. It is the owner‘s responsibility to do this, not the suppliers.

Contacted dvla reply was
The fitting of the a-frame is a adaption and not a notifiable modification to the vehicle (the same as fititng a towbar on the back of a car) so there is no requirement to inform the DVLA.

 

[TOAD on Tour]

Hi I’ve just bought an Abarth 595, was yours costly to get converted and did they leave any sticky out bits on the front or does it look normal without the a frame on. What braking system did you have?
Bought our Abarth with a view to converting it soon if I can find a decent place to do it near warrington.

Hi - shame, I sold mine 3 weeks ago! No sticky out bit, they colour match 2 plastic caps that go in the holes where the A Frame connects when not is use. Very neat and tidy job, you do not notice them.it’s around £2500 - £3000 I believe. I bought mine already converted. It’s the electronic braking system. Have a look on their website, you’ll get all the info you need along with YouTube videos of it working etc.

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[Don Campbell]

Is the tow bar designed and rated strong to tow a small car - If it’s a standard tow bar I suspect it would need to be replaced with something stronger ? That plus car conversion plus insurance company will need to know.

Could end up being quite a chunky investment …!

Most insurance companies do not make a charge for towing. In any case I'm sure they know what it costs and at the end of the day it's what it's worth to them.