Towing a small car.

[AG 2602]

Hi All,
Some advise would be appreciated.
Never really wanted to tow a car behind the MH as we were always happy to walk out with the dog to wherever we needed to go.
However dog is now getting older so long walks of 6/7 miles are out of the question (especially hills). He can manage 4 miles on the flat (and he seems to enjoy it) with an hours rest in between which works OK but we miss the hills!!

We were planning either the Lakes or Scotland in Sept but feel we won't really see much. However if we had a small car then maybe we could drive further afield, and then do our walking at the top of hills rather than hiking up them.
We are already half way there as we have the following.

• Peugeot 107
• Tow bar already fitted to MH

Do people think this is a good move?
Anyone recommend a company near Bristol that could convert the car?

Alternatively we could spend all our holidays in Norfolk!!

 

[triky]

It does'nt look as if those front wheels have been controlled though !!

 

[DDJC]

We have done most of our touring in Europe as well no problems, apart from following a two wheel trailer which was snaking all over the road.
We got past easily as the toad tows very well with no snaking.
Enjoy your touring, we all have likes and dislikes, easy ways and complicated ways.

I am going to agree with you that when it worked, our little Suzuki trundled along happily behind us and seemed very stable. And our trailer was the smallest twin axle veh trailer you can get, so that too, was very stable. The Woodford LWT 072 weighed 400kg and could carry 1200kg. We only sacked it because the ramps are heavy & unwieldy, as well as being noisy to fit.

We only took our A Frame out of UK once, to Ireland (going there was fine, coming back, we decoupled as it kept starting). SiL is a lawyer and she looked into it. Very grey area. Seems like Ireland have the same sort of lack in interest in determining legality as the UK. The Gardai had no interest in us anyway.

It doesn't matter to me whether people use them or not, or whether in UK or Europe. Not my call, and I don't care. My only beef is that I was lied to in order to make a sale, and the amount of unrecoverable money I had to pay to remedy it. The complete BS that is glibly trotted out by these fitting companies needs to be challenged, not least because it isn't them who gets being ordered to decouple by an unhappy Guardia Civil de Tráfico officer.

You obviously don't have to answer, but which countries in Europe have you A Framed in, and when?

 

[Fdhadi]

Let’s be honest.
A lot of motorhomes now have a motorhome because they couldn’t reverse a caravan.

I have and use a tow car in the uk. I don’t and probably won’t take it into Europe. Tbh, if I wanted to then I probably would, but extra very charges, maybe extra toll charges, space on Aires, extra fuel means I probably won’t.

It’s also a known fact that Europe is geared up for motorhomes, parking in villages, towns and cities makes just using the Motorhome itself easy, unlike the uk.

I will stick to using my tow car in the uk, which, tbh is very infrequent because I find the uk to difficult, mostly having to book sites and overcrowding, traffic amongst other things.

For me, and this only my opinion, a Motorhome is totally wasted in this country, it’s different world in most parts of Europe.

If I was only staying in this country I’d buy a caravan, again, just my honest opinion.

 

[RustyRuss]

Right so I think we will take a chance what’s the worst that can happen I have to recharge the toad battery!
So turn off radio and screen in toad and the towing vehicle operates the lights and indicators on toad

Thanks all as usual your feed back is much appreciated

We had a 2019 Aygo toad, recently swapped it for exact same model, colour etc but a 2021 plate. We got Bentley’s Toyota in Warrington to supply us with a key that only works the door locks. You can stick the key in the ignition but it doesn’t have a transponder so can not start the car. If you insert the key in it, turn it to position two then back to off the radio goes off and the steering lock doesn’t work either. The key cost us £30. We have noticed that if you put the side or headlights on on the MoHo the toad battery drains as the DLR lights come on on the toad. I try and finish all our driving before nightfall to prevent this from happening.

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[Jez1966]

Hi All,
Some advise would be appreciated.
Never really wanted to tow a car behind the MH as we were always happy to walk out with the dog to wherever we needed to go.
However dog is now getting older so long walks of 6/7 miles are out of the question (especially hills). He can manage 4 miles on the flat (and he seems to enjoy it) with an hours rest in between which works OK but we miss the hills!!

We were planning either the Lakes or Scotland in Sept but feel we won't really see much. However if we had a small car then maybe we could drive further afield, and then do our walking at the top of hills rather than hiking up them.
We are already half way there as we have the following.

• Peugeot 107
• Tow bar already fitted to MH

Do people think this is a good move?
Anyone recommend a company near Bristol that could convert the car?

Alternatively we could spend all our holidays in Norfolk!!

You can't tow a vehicle with any wheels on the ground in France or Spain has to be on a trailer. There maybe others as well.
OK if your not planning to leave the UK.
You can't reverse a car on an A-Frame.
You'll need 6000kg GTW though but overall a trailer is not that much more expensive than getting car modified and no country exclusions.

 

[Jez1966]

Comfort wasn‘t interested we were towing and LV wasn’t interested that we had made Angela’s car into a toad.

View attachment 737958

And you've compliant with GTW?
The 3.3t light van has a GTW 3.5t so can tow 200kgs, UNLESS you have reduced the van weight by 800kgs to compensate
for the approx. 1000kgs car.

 

[TonyEmm]

We had a 2019 Aygo toad, recently swapped it for exact same model, colour etc but a 2021 plate. We got Bentley’s Toyota in Warrington to supply us with a key that only works the door locks. You can stick the key in the ignition but it doesn’t have a transponder so can not start the car. If you insert the key in it, turn it to position two then back to off the radio goes off and the steering lock doesn’t work either. The key cost us £30. We have noticed that if you put the side or headlights on on the MoHo the toad battery drains as the DLR lights come on on the toad. I try and finish all our driving before nightfall to prevent this from happening.

The TOAD’s lights don’t draw current from the TOAD’s battery, they are fed from the lighting circuits of the Motorhome.
The one possible exception is the brake lights.

Do your car’s brakelights work outside of the ignition? If so they will draw current from the car’s battery every time the brake activated unless either an isolating switch or relay is fitted.

Additionally, electronic activated systems can draw in excess of 10amps from the TOAD’s battery, every time the system kicks in. A trickle charge from the MoHo will help but only provides around 2 amps at best.

 

[triky]

You can't tow a vehicle with any wheels on the ground in France or Spain has to be on a trailer. There maybe others as well.
OK if your not planning to leave the UK.
You can't reverse a car on an A-Frame.
You'll need 6000kg GTW though but overall a trailer is not that much more expensive than getting car modified and no country exclusions.

Jez,you are incorrect in your "can't tow " statement !! I had a Smart for MANY tears towing behind a Mo-Ho.As i have explained in an earlier post,,,a pair of 'expanders'(bungy cords ) hooked round the steering spokes & connected to the underside of the seat squab with the front wheels straight DOES enable you to reverse straight AND round ANY corner or obstruction .BEEN THERE MANY TIMES ,it works !!

 

[Jez1966]

Jez,you are incorrect in your "can't tow " statement !! I had a Smart for MANY tears towing behind a Mo-Ho.As i have explained in an earlier post,,,a pair of 'expanders'(bungy cords ) hooked round the steering spokes & connected to the underside of the seat squab with the front wheels straight DOES enable you to reverse straight AND round ANY corner or obstruction .BEEN THERE MANY TIMES ,it works !!

Getting away with it does not make it LEGAL, like murder:
The attention of the public authorities was once again drawn to the question of the European directive n ° 94-20 CE. It would seem that the fact of being able to tow a small car using a camper is only a tolerance according to French legislation. There is an ambiguity on this point between the European and French legislation, particularly with regard to motorhomes wishing to tow another vehicle, using a towing vehicle without resorting to the purchase of a car transporter trailer.

The position of the (French) Ministry of Ecology, Sustainable Development and Energy was again clarified in August 2014 in a technical statement that ends very clearly: "In conclusion, apart from the specific operations of troubleshooting (eg. breakdowns or accidents), the only legal and secure way to transport a car behind a camper is to put it on a car transporter-trailer.” To travel towing with an A-frame in France puts you in illegal situation. You risk being fined, or even being forced to pick up your frame to tow to be able to leave.

A trailer and I presume tow car will not go back straight as the pivot is the towing hitch, given having 4 wheel make it more likely to go straight.
Does the in car braking system not activate when car "push" backwards, I does not know the difference between being pushed and inertia from
MH braking.

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[tonyidle]

Jez,you are incorrect in your "can't tow " statement !! I had a Smart for MANY tears towing behind a Mo-Ho.As i have explained in an earlier post,,,a pair of 'expanders'(bungy cords ) hooked round the steering spokes & connected to the underside of the seat squab with the front wheels straight DOES enable you to reverse straight AND round ANY corner or obstruction .BEEN THERE MANY TIMES ,it works !!

A typical reverse (for me at least) would be into a side road to turn around. The toad would require something approaching full lock at the start of the turn. Assuming approx 3 turns lock to lock the toad steering wheel would need to turn at least one full turn. How does that work?

 

[Jez1966]

A typical reverse (for me at least) would be into a side road to turn around. The toad would require something approaching full lock at the start of the turn. Assuming approx 3 turns lock to lock the toad steering wheel would need to turn at least one full turn. How does that work?

Does the Smart have a braking system installed or is it light enough to be unbraked.

 

[tonyidle]

Does the Smart have a braking system installed or is it light enough to be unbraked.

All toads need to activate the brakes. Weight doesn't matter - if they're fitted they must work. The Smart is way over 750kg anyway.

 

[TonyEmm]

A trailer and I presume tow car will not go back straight as the pivot is the towing hitch, given having 4 wheel make it more likely to go straight.
Does the in car braking system not activate when car "push" backwards, I does not know the difference between being pushed and inertia from
MH braking.

The in-car braking system does activate when pushed backwards if you have a traditional inertia (caravan style) coupling.
The difference between a trailer and a TOAD is that trailer has auto-reverse brake mechanisms built into each brake drum, a TOAD does not.
One is reversible, the isn’t, to any practical extent! It’s just easier to unhitch the TOAD and manœuvre separately.

 

[TonyEmm]

Does the Smart have a braking system installed or is it light enough to be unbraked.

Regardless of weight, if a ‘trailer’ has a braking system, it must be operational.

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[Jez1966]

That is strange ...saga said they would ask the underwriters who said its an modification...just paid the extra could not get a better quote...caravan and motor home club were twice the price of saga ...

Replacing the front cross-member, converting it to tow car means the vehicle is no longer compliant with its stated Euro rating, the new configurations has not been tested, to me that is a modification and a significant one.
As long as your policy documents detail the changes your good, if it's just the "guy/girl on the phone said it was ok", I would get back to them
and get it documented.
Remembering if your have an accident, blame or nor, your motorhome insurance is liable for the cost of repair/write off of the motorhome+car.

 

[TonyEmm]

Replacing the front cross-member, converting it to tow car means the vehicle is no longer compliant with its stated Euro rating, the new configurations has not been tested, to me that is a modification and a significant one.
As long as your policy documents detail the changes your good, if it's just the "guy/girl on the phone said it was ok", I would get back to them
and get it documented.
Remembering if your have an accident, blame or nor, your motorhome insurance is liable for the cost of repair/write off of the motorhome+car.

You’re right about the ‘significant modification’.

I’ve had conversations with DfT about this, one email said any vehicle that has been ‘radically altered’ should be notified to DVLA as such.
Problem was, they couldn’t give me a link where to report to specifically and, they say the onus is on the owner to report it, not the converter. They did admit though that any reputable supplier should inform you of the need to do this before they commence work. I wonder how many do?

 

[62272]

Replacing the front cross-member, converting it to tow car means the vehicle is no longer compliant with its stated Euro rating, the new configurations has not been tested, to me that is a modification and a significant one.
As long as your policy documents detail the changes your good, if it's just the "guy/girl on the phone said it was ok", I would get back to them
and get it documented.
Remembering if your have an accident, blame or nor, your motorhome insurance is liable for the cost of repair/write off of the motorhome+car.

What tosh.. (pardon my French), the argument presented here is without legal merit. The Euro rating is irrelevant to this argument.

 

[TonyEmm]

What tosh.. (pardon my French), the argument presented here is without legal merit. The Euro rating is irrelevant to this argument.

In the U.K. at least, the whole situation surrounding a-frame towing is ‘without legal merit’.
All vehicles motorised or otherwise are required to comply with the Road Vehicles (construction & use) regulations 1986 and amendements. These rely heavily on an amalgamation of various EU regs and the UNECE regs which were borne out of the Vienna Convention. The U.K. signed up to, and ratified, the UNECE regs back in 1979. The DfT however don’t allow DVSA to enforce It.

The DVSA is the enforcement agency for these regs but their strings are pulled by the DfT.

Sadly, the DfT have made a right hash of cobbling rules/regs together. Even their advice page on a-frames is a contradiction. They say a towed-car has to conform to trailer regs but that’s impossible as they are currently written.
Whoever authored the page (someone in the DfT’s IVS division) doesn’t understand the difference between breakaway cables and secondary couplings.

They say an a-frame is neither a vehicle or a trailer (by their own definition a trailer is a vehicle ) so falls outside type approval.
A Towbar at the rear is neither a vehicle or a trailer either but is subject to testing and certification!

It’s time the DfT took a whole new look at the position of a-framing, from the ground up.
it’s my view that if they wish a-framing to continue, (and I’m not arguing against it), then an a-frame towed car (TOAD) should have its own vehicle classification with relevant rules and regs and controls.
At that point, much of the confusion will be removed and users will know where they stand. They should also be able to ascertain that what they are using is safe, legal, certified and fit for purpose.

These are safety critical items and should be treated as such.

 

[62272]

In the U.K. at least, the whole situation surrounding a-frame towing is ‘without legal merit’.
All vehicles motorised or otherwise are required to comply with the Road Vehicles (construction & use) regulations 1986 and amendements. These rely heavily on an amalgamation of various EU regs and the UNECE regs which were borne out of the Vienna Convention. The U.K. signed up to, and ratified, the UNECE regs back in 1979. The DfT however don’t allow DVSA to enforce It.

The DVSA is the enforcement agency for these regs but their strings are pulled by the DfT.

Sadly, the DfT have made a right hash of cobbling rules/regs together. Even their advice page on a-frames is a contradiction. They say a towed-car has to conform to trailer regs but that’s impossible as they are currently written.
Whoever authored the page (someone in the DfT’s IVS division) doesn’t understand the difference between breakaway cables and secondary couplings.

They say an a-frame is neither a vehicle or a trailer (by their own definition a trailer is a vehicle ) so falls outside type approval.
A Towbar at the rear is neither a vehicle or a trailer either but is subject to testing and certification!

It’s time the DfT took a whole new look at the position of a-framing, from the ground up.
it’s my view that if they wish a-framing to continue, (and I’m not arguing against it), then an a-frame towed car (TOAD) should have its own vehicle classification with relevant rules and regs and controls.
At that point, much of the confusion will be removed and users will know where they stand. They should also be able to ascertain that what they are using is safe, legal, certified and fit for purpose.

These are safety critical items and should be treated as such.

I respect that you are entitled to your view, however these are your opinions and as you have rightly stated there are many contradictions on those that are legally charged with enforcing and promoting road traffic legislation.

banging on about it on these forums relentlessly because you have a vested (or had) interest in conventional trailers needs to be understood by those who wish to go down this road. If it was as unsafe as you make out believe me we would be hearing about it. A one off image from down-under (with no evidenced context) is not a convincing argument and just demonstrates your clear bias on this subject.

just my view though - from an A-frame user with thousands of miles travelled (mainly abroad) under my belt.

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[TonyEmm]

I respect that you are entitled to your view, however these are your opinions and as you have rightly stated there are many contradictions on those that are legally charged with enforcing and promoting road traffic legislation.

banging on about it on these forums relentlessly because you have a vested (or had) interest in conventional trailers needs to be understood by those who wish to go down this road. If it was as unsafe as you make out believe me we would be hearing about it. A one off image from down-under (with no evidenced context) is not a convincing argument and just demonstrates your clear bias on this subject.

just my view though - from an A-frame user with thousands of miles travelled (mainly abroad) under my belt.

The ‘one off image from down under’ was a slightly TIC response to one particular user.
if you think that’s an isolated incident, you’re clearly not aware of Sue Hill’s experience with one ‘leading’ supplier, or 3 others I could mention, but won’t as some are subject to ongoing legal action. These are are all from another ‘leading‘ supplier.

Then there were at least 8 instances last year of broken/jammed brake pedal wires, all from one supplier, all on one genre of vehicle…. I think it’s fair to say, you don’t know the 1/2 of it…

 

[62272]

The ‘one off image from down under’ was a slightly TIC response to one particular user.
if you think that’s an isolated incident, you’re clearly not aware of Sue Hill’s experience with one ‘leading’ supplier, or 3 others I could mention, but won’t as some are subject to ongoing legal action. These are are all from another ‘leading‘ supplier.

Then there were at least 8 instances last year of broken/jammed brake pedal wires, all from one supplier, all on one genre of vehicle…. I think it’s fair to say, you don’t know the 1/2 of it…

Watch this space as they say, I’m sure the outcome will be published on here

 

[TonyEmm]

Is the tow bar designed and rated strong to tow a small car - If it’s a standard tow bar I suspect it would need to be replaced with something stronger ? That plus car conversion plus insurance company will need to know.

Could end up being quite a chunky investment …!

From 2012 onwards, the Towbar needs to be tested and type approved. It should be certified with it’s limits.
shame the same can’t be said about any a-frames!

 

[TonyEmm]

The ‘one off image from down under’ was a slightly TIC response to one particular user.
if you think that’s an isolated incident, you’re clearly not aware of Sue Hill’s experience with one ‘leading’ supplier, or 3 others I could mention, but won’t as some are subject to ongoing legal action. These are are all from another ‘leading‘ supplier.

Then there were at least 8 instances last year of broken/jammed brake pedal wires, all from one supplier, all on one genre of vehicle…. I think it’s fair to say, you don’t know the 1/2 of it…

TBF, I don’t think I know the 1/2 of it either, I only know what folk tell me about!

 

[Jez1966]

What tosh.. (pardon my French), the argument presented here is without legal merit. The Euro rating is irrelevant to this argument.

Not sure what you mean by "without legal merit" as I was not referring to legality, read more carefully.
I was simple suggesting that to avoid future issues when making a claim the modifications/alternations are clearly documented.
Otherwise as per the blurb that is read to you when you take out insurance, something like, Failure to mention/disclose relevant
information may lead to insurance being cancelled.
The insurance company decides what is "relevant" and if discovered, even after a claim, they will cancel policy.

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[Platelet]

From 2012 onwards, the Towbar needs to be tested and type approved. It should be certified with it’s limits.
shame the same can’t be said about any a-frames!

Regarding type approval it’s 1998 and it’s only M1 registered vehicles that it applies to, any other type is exempt.

 

[stewartwebr]

We towed cars for about 12 years, first on trailers then we moved to Towbars2Towcars A Frames. They fitted 2 Abarths' then the real challenge of a Mercedes SLC. The service was first class and product very good. Then we moved across to Morelos' with car garages, I have to say it is a lot less stressful not having to think about a car in tow and the worry of having to reverse, no matter what anyone tells you is almost impossible in anything other than a very straight line and that is after coming to stop in a straight line with the cars front wheels pointing the rights way.

 

[TonyEmm]

Regarding type approval it’s 1998 and it’s only M1 registered vehicles that it applies to, any other type is exempt.

Regarding type approval, you’re correct that it was introduced in 1998 for M1(passenger car) vehicles under EC94/20. However that was replaced by Regulation 55 and type approval was extended in October 2012 to include motorhomes/campers and N1 (vans) class vehicles.

 

[DDJC]

from an A-frame user with thousands of miles travelled (mainly abroad) under my belt.

Glad to hear it. It seems that you are less likely to get stopped in some countries, than others. What was your experience? Were you ever stopped, where, and if so, were you ever asked to de-couple. I only ask because it has happened to my knowledge to Funsters in France and Spain. But I've also heard of the ridiculous bit of paper that my fitter provided managing to convince a French Fed to let them continue.

Worrying that a traffic cop doesn't know his own laws, but hey, our gain.

 

[TonyEmm]

We towed cars for about 12 years, first on trailers then we moved to Towbars2Towcars A Frames. They fitted 2 Abarths' then the real challenge of a Mercedes SLC. The service was first class and product very good. Then we moved across to Morelos' with car garages, I have to say it is a lot less stressful not having to think about a car in tow and the worry of having to reverse, no matter what anyone tells you is almost impossible in anything other than a very straight line and that is after coming to stop in a straight line with the cars front wheels pointing the rights way.

Wow!
way out of my league but a very impressive piece of kit!

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[AG 2602]

I seem to have opened a real can of worms here!! Now I'm not sure whether I should tow or not!!