Payload

[StephDeLux]

I weight the regimental 75 kg & the boss 45 kg.

Will someone give a sandwich to these people?

 

[jezport]

An average couple will need around 400kg.

Remember that in the confusing payload figures, they fudge it further with what is MIRO. part of which is adding a 75kg driver

So if the van, you are looking at, says it has a MIRO giving 400kg spare capacity (payload) it likely has an actual payload of 475kg Because you are going to ignore the imaginary driver and add the weight of a real one.

Meaning Mr and Mrs Average requiring 400kg will be OK.

Let's see how this works with some real figures

Auto-Trail Delaware, a fixed rear island bed 4 berth for two adults and two teenagers.

Max Gross weight (MAM) is 4500kg
Mass in Running Order (MIRO) 3750kg
Starting Payload 750kg

That payload already includes a driver so we can add 75kg to the figure making the available payload 825kg

Now look at the chart below

We need 175 kg for the van and around 110 kg for each person

175 + (4x110) = 615

This gives us over 200kg to play with, so we might travel with full tanks or load up with wine etc.

This is the "Average" payload an "Average" person requires. We came to these averages to give you a ballpark figure of what you might require. Yes you may carry more wine, clothes or water, but these are the averages. You can work out your personal requirements easily enough.

In Yorkshire we also take a big coat ( thas coyt) thas *ferrit, thas black pudding, Thas flat cap and thas sarnie tin (snap tin)
*Ferrit optional

 

[Lenny HB]

Has anyone ever actually had a dealer agree to refund/exchange because of payload? It's obviously a crucial element in choosing a motorhome and in theory it should be possible to return a vehicle if it doesn't have the expected payload. I just wonder whether in practice this is actually what happens?

Mickey1 did.

 

[Lenny HB]

Makers will always have a full explanation of payload and its importance within the specifications. (Even when they give you next to nothing to work with) So it is always buyer beware. When I've mentioned unrealistic payload to the NCC they say the same. The buyer should ensure they have the payload they require.

For the industry to behave like that is totally irresponsible, they are well aware that probably at least 80% of there customers are unaware of payload and the implications of a vehicle being overloaded.

 

[nicholsong]

Has anyone ever actually had a dealer agree to refund/exchange because of payload? It's obviously a crucial element in choosing a motorhome and in theory it should be possible to return a vehicle if it doesn't have the expected payload. I just wonder whether in practice this is actually what happens?

One can make the stated payload a 'condition of the contract' and if it does not meet that condition one has a right to reject the MH.

Then the dealer does not have to 'agree' as he is bound by law.

Geoff

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[Alanben]

An average couple will need around 400kg.

Remember that in the confusing payload figures, they fudge it further with what is MIRO. part of which is adding a 75kg driver

So if the van, you are looking at, says it has a MIRO giving 400kg spare capacity (payload) it likely has an actual payload of 475kg Because you are going to ignore the imaginary driver and add the weight of a real one.

Meaning Mr and Mrs Average requiring 400kg will be OK.

Let's see how this works with some real figures

Auto-Trail Delaware, a fixed rear island bed 4 berth for two adults and two teenagers.

Max Gross weight (MAM) is 4500kg
Mass in Running Order (MIRO) 3750kg
Starting Payload 750kg

That payload already includes a driver so we can add 75kg to the figure making the available payload 825kg

Now look at the chart below

We need 175 kg for the van and around 110 kg for each person

175 + (4x110) = 615

This gives us over 200kg to play with, so we might travel with full tanks or load up with wine etc.

This is the "Average" payload an "Average" person requires. We came to these averages to give you a ballpark figure of what you might require. Yes you may carry more wine, clothes or water, but these are the averages. You can work out your personal requirements easily enough.

You should also bare in mind that a percentage should be added to those weights if carried behind the rear axle because of the leverage effect of the rear overhang.
Just to be contentious.
In the real world, it would be interesting to know how many people have been stopped and weighed !
How many insurance claims have been refused for being overweight.
Most motorhomes rated at 3500kg are capable of carrying a heavier load quite safely assuming it just a paper exercise to uprate. now where is my tin helmet!!

 

[Mickey1]

Mickey1 did.

Lenny HB , would you believe that was nearly three years ago, I got my money back and within a week bought a Benimar 294

And been happy ever since.

Mickey.

 

[Jim]

would you believe that was nearly three years ago,

Kept us all enthralled for weeks

 

[tonyidle]

One can make the stated payload a 'condition of the contract' and if it does not meet that condition one has a right to reject the MH.

Then the dealer does not have to 'agree' as he is bound by law.

Geoff

That is why I suggested that you would be wise to know your requirements and state them to the Dealer - preferably in writing. I don't believe there is a reliable unladen weight or MIRO available particularly with a second-hand van. If you state your requirements and the Dealer says they are met then you have a contract.

 

[tonyidle]

You should also bare in mind that a percentage should be added to those weights if carried behind the rear axle because of the leverage effect of the rear overhang.
Just to be contentious.
In the real world, it would be interesting to know how many people have been stopped and weighed !
How many insurance claims have been refused for being overweight.
Most motorhomes rated at 3500kg are capable of carrying a heavier load quite safely assuming it just a paper exercise to uprate. now where is my tin helmet!!

The 'real world' scenario is that it is reasonable to expect to be sold a vehicle fit for purpose and operable within the law. Once you have it in that condition how you choose to use it is up to you.

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[funflair]

You should also bare in mind that a percentage should be added to those weights if carried behind the rear axle because of the leverage effect of the rear overhang.
Just to be contentious.
In the real world, it would be interesting to know how many people have been stopped and weighed !
How many insurance claims have been refused for being overweight.
Most motorhomes rated at 3500kg are capable of carrying a heavier load quite safely assuming it just a paper exercise to uprate. now where is my tin helmet!!

The lever effect only alters the weight distribution not the total weight.

Martin

 

[Alanben]

The lever effect only alters the weight distribution not the total weight.

Martin

OK. but the lever effect does affect the rear axle load, so that any payload behind the rear axle puts a greater load than its actual weight. Therefore if you weigh each item to keep just below the max axle load you could end up overloaded on that axle.

 

[MyrtleGuru]

Given that the 3,500kg is essentially an artificial figure dictated by driving licence categories and, given that it now appears we are leaving the EU and its roughly harmonised licensing categories, how about campaigning for a new UK category with a weight limit somewhere between those of the B and C1, say, 5,000kg?

As well as the motorhome consideration, if the governement is serious about promoting electric power for commercial vehicles, then keeping a commercial vehicle below 3,500kg if it has to carry whopping batteries is going to be a challenge, so a new higher limit would also be of benefit there.

 

[StephDeLux]

Given that the 3,500kg is essentially an artificial figure dictated by driving licence categories and, given that it now appears we are leaving the EU and its roughly harmonised licensing categories, how about campaigning for a new UK category with a weight limit somewhere between those of the B and C1, say, 5,000kg?

As well as the motorhome consideration, if the governement is serious about promoting electric power for commercial vehicles, then keeping a commercial vehicle below 3,500kg if it has to carry whopping batteries is going to be a challenge, so a new higher limit would also be of benefit there.

If that passed, I'd consider moving.

 

[Larby]

As well as the motorhome consideration, if the governement is serious about promoting electric power for commercial vehicles, then keeping a commercial vehicle below 3,500kg if it has to carry whopping batteries is going to be a challenge, so a new higher limit would also be of benefit there.

The government realised this dilemma, it does come with conditions.

https://vans.honestjohn.co.uk/features/can-you-drive-an-electric-van-above-3500kg-with-a-normal-licence/

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[Jim]

Given that the 3,500kg is essentially an artificial figure dictated by driving licence categories and, given that it now appears we are leaving the EU and its roughly harmonised licensing categories, how about campaigning for a new UK category with a weight limit somewhere between those of the B and C1, say, 5,000kg?

That might be pushing it, but to add just 500kg to it would make a massive difference to so many. And the manufacturers would be able to mention payload again as they'd be able to give us some

 

[StephDeLux]

That might be pushing it, but to add just 500kg to it would make a massive difference to so many. And the manufacturers would be able to mention payload again as they'd be able to give us some

Very true. That 3.5T limit is so arbitrary.

My Ford Ranger + Caravan had a combined MIRO of 3.6T and then we added our not insignificant load and all our stuff, so we were driving a total of about 4T, taking 14 meters on the road, being much less stable than a MH and with a dangerous inertia braking system. But that is perfectly legal with my B license!

Heck, the Ranger can pull 3.5T, I could have driven a 6T carriage and be legal!

 

[StephDeLux]

Nope a B licence you are limited to a total MAM for car & trailer of 3500 kg.

<Broken link removed>

Ah yes, I have a BE license issued in the 80's

 

[nicholsong]

Given that the 3,500kg is essentially an artificial figure dictated by driving licence categories and, given that it now appears we are leaving the EU and its roughly harmonised licensing categories, how about campaigning for a new UK category with a weight limit somewhere between those of the B and C1, say, 5,000kg?

As well as the motorhome consideration, if the governement is serious about promoting electric power for commercial vehicles, then keeping a commercial vehicle below 3,500kg if it has to carry whopping batteries is going to be a challenge, so a new higher limit would also be of benefit there.

The 3500kg limit was agreed by about 126 countries in International Treaties dating back to the Vienna Convention 1936. Nothing to do with EU.

There would not be much benefit to UK drivers/owners if that limit were breached unilaterally in UK and not accepted across the channel.

Geoff

 

[bigguspeckus]

Should payload be the most important feature when buying a motorhome? Many have bought without the slightest knowledge of what it is and the implications it brings. Should dealers give this a higher priority when selling.

I remember reading on here a couple of years back about a couple who brought a brand new Chusson (mite be spelt incorrectly) it could hardly carry a driver and passenger let alone any thing else!
The payload is the top priority, has to be.
Once you know the vehicle can carry you, yours, and ya stuff,,,
then you start with the minor stuff,,, like iz the steering wheel on the rite side,,, or should I say the preferred side. ?

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[RandallC]

Have been following the thread with some interest (and a popcorn supply) as we have a Tandem axle Kon-tiki that just carries anything you care to throw in. Payload isn't foremost in our thoughts (unless heading back from France with scooter & bikes & a modicum of wine/beer), yes it's been weighed and no worries

Anyway, was thinking that most of us load our MH with stuff on a just in case basis. I've been known to travel with 2 toolkits (electrical & mechanical) + spares + WIBNI's, spare chairs for guests, 3 months supply of dog food.

We are planning to down size slightly to something a metre shorter but somewhat lighter. So am looking at what we carry/need, MH layout we want and a payload we can live with.

If you consider worst case scenarios for payload having installed your must haves like gas-low, air-con (mainly for Toffee as on times left in the van), solar panel/s, barbie, awning etc etc. if your not aware the non C1 3500 payload is gone and you have to leave your significant other at home (note non gender specific use, (Toffee (our spaniel declined to comment))).

So really are most of us looking at a C1 licence MH or no frills and no toys?

Agreed looking at broachers and specs the MH manufactures are being less than transparent and should be made to fess up, DITTO dealers who are appear more than happy to sell you something that may not be suitable for your plans.

As with all purchases ""Caveat Emptor"" Buyer beware

So do your research and make sure when you when discounting a MH due to payload you let the dealer/manufacturer know otherwise nothing will change.

 

[Lenny HB]

Ah yes, I have a BE license issued in the 80's

You were quick, I deleted that post because I was wrong, If you passed your test before Jan 1997 you can tow up to a combined maximum MAM of 8000kg on a B license.

 

[bigguspeckus]

An average couple will need around 400kg.

Remember that in the confusing payload figures, they fudge it further with what is MIRO. part of which is adding a 75kg driver

So if the van, you are looking at, says it has a MIRO giving 400kg spare capacity (payload) it likely has an actual payload of 475kg Because you are going to ignore the imaginary driver and add the weight of a real one.

Meaning Mr and Mrs Average requiring 400kg will be OK.

Let's see how this works with some real figures

Auto-Trail Delaware, a fixed rear island bed 4 berth for two adults and two teenagers.

Max Gross weight (MAM) is 4500kg
Mass in Running Order (MIRO) 3750kg
Starting Payload 750kg

That payload already includes a driver so we can add 75kg to the figure making the available payload 825kg

Now look at the chart below

We need 175 kg for the van and around 110 kg for each person

175 + (4x110) = 615

This gives us over 200kg to play with, so we might travel with full tanks or load up with wine etc.

This is the "Average" payload an "Average" person requires. We came to these averages to give you a ballpark figure of what you might require. Yes you may carry more wine, clothes or water, but these are the averages. You can work out your personal requirements easily enough.

Glad you mentioned the pet subject,,, we've got 2 Jacks, 25kg (combined) add to that their (luxurious) sleeping bags and blankets, their towels, their coats (rain and warm) their leads and grooming kit,,, then we come to their food...
We've made the rod for our back bcos we've spoilt them,,, we now have to bring Pedigree Chum or Caeser (various flavours) but its got to be for "senior dogs" bcos they wont eat the other stuff (dont ask why bcos if our life depended on it we couldn't explain). We found that in several areas of Europe we couldn't get the brand name stuff so we bring it with us.
Then there's the "chew sticks",,, round about 7pm they demand their daily "tooth wash",,, and it has to be a "Pedigree Chew Stick" (Aldi-Lidl imitations not acceptable!).
I've no idea how much 50 bags of chew sticks weigh but it'll be pounds, not ounces.
So,,, the "Canine all in Weight" is considerable...
I reckon I should get rite on that and commence weighing???!

 

[MyrtleGuru]

The 3500kg limit was agreed by about 126 countries in International Treaties dating back to the Vienna Convention 1936. Nothing to do with EU.

There would not be much benefit to UK drivers/owners if that limit were breached unilaterally in UK and not accepted across the channel.

Geoff

Rather than vehicle weights, though, we are just talking about driving licence categories here. The current ones began in the 1990s with Council of the European Union Directive 91/439/EEC implemented in 1996 (plus later amendments) which harmonised the categories of driving licences among the Member States. It also established obligatory tests with progressive access in categories A, C, and D, from light vehicles to larger or more powerful vehicles. So we would just need to go back to something similar to that which existed in the UK prior to 1997. Hence why older UK people can drive up to 7,500kg with no additional test, whereas those who passed their car test after 1997 cannot.

Of course, if the UK diverges from EU licensing standards an international driving permit would most definitely be needed (based on the old pre-EU treaties).

 

[PeteH]

Counts as a passenger
Joking apart, how many people add the weight of their pet and all its accessories. We have just bougt a amaller lighter cage for our Macaw for the van, as she is out of it most the time. Her old cage was quite heavy.

OK its an old Joke! (about lorry loads of chickens). You just keep banging the cage, the parrot flies and ergo weighs nothing!

For the industry to behave like that is totally irresponsible, they are well aware that probably at least 80% of there customers are unaware of payload and the implications of a vehicle being overloaded.

Errrrrrr. I think £££££££££££££££££££££££££££? might have something to do with it?

Given that the 3,500kg is essentially an artificial figure dictated by driving licence categories and, given that it now appears we are leaving the EU and its roughly harmonised licensing categories, how about campaigning for a new UK category with a weight limit somewhere between those of the B and C1, say, 5,000kg?

As well as the motorhome consideration, if the governement is serious about promoting electric power for commercial vehicles, then keeping a commercial vehicle below 3,500kg if it has to carry whopping batteries is going to be a challenge, so a new higher limit would also be of benefit there.

There is (or soon will be) an "allowance" whereby a driver with a "B" licence will be able to drive an "electric" vehicle with a greater MAM. providing it`s payload is the same as IC version of said vehicle.

When I passed my test; 1959 (ish). I could drive any bloody thing. If it had wheels and engine I was allowed to drive it.. And did!. It was only the Bureaucrats that F888ed it up. Not much on wheels or tracks I haven't driven at some point even if only off the RoRo and into the compound in a desert somewhere.

Seriously there is NO difference between a Motorhome at 3.5t and one at 3.8t. And the difference up to 4.2t is often ONLY the tyres and wheels. Most of the underpinnings "we" use are designed to be generally available across a range of "mass" figures in countries accross the world. The "B" licence should be good for at least 4t and possibly more.

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[nicholsong]

Rather than vehicle weights, though, we are just talking about driving licence categories here. The current ones began in the 1990s with Council of the European Union Directive 91/439/EEC implemented in 1996 (plus later amendments) which harmonised the categories of driving licences among the Member States. It also established obligatory tests with progressive access in categories A, C, and D, from light vehicles to larger or more powerful vehicles. So we would just need to go back to something similar to that which existed in the UK prior to 1997. Hence why older UK people can drive up to 7,500kg with no additional test, whereas those who passed their car test after 1997 cannot.

Of course, if the UK diverges from EU licensing standards an international driving permit would most definitely be needed (based on the old pre-EU treaties).

Which would include the 3500kg distinction, so back to square one.

 

[MyrtleGuru]

Which would include the 3500kg distinction, so back to square one.

If the UK does not have to conform to EU standards on licences, it does not have to set the limit at 3,500kg for a standard driving licence.

Take the US, for example. I believe the standard there is 11,700kg, but I don’t profess to know for sure (and I guess it may vary depending on state). Other countries’ licences will differ. But they are all (mostly) recognised by international treaties covered by the various IDPs, whatever limit is set by the country in question.

 

[bigtwin]

Glad you mentioned the pet subject,,, we've got 2 Jacks, 25kg (combined) add to that their (luxurious) sleeping bags and blankets, their towels, their coats (rain and warm) their leads and grooming kit,,, then we come to their food...
We've made the rod for our back bcos we've spoilt them,,, we now have to bring Pedigree Chum or Caeser (various flavours) but its got to be for "senior dogs" bcos they wont eat the other stuff (dont ask why bcos if our life depended on it we couldn't explain). We found that in several areas of Europe we couldn't get the brand name stuff so we bring it with us.
Then there's the "chew sticks",,, round about 7pm they demand their daily "tooth wash",,, and it has to be a "Pedigree Chew Stick" (Aldi-Lidl imitations not acceptable!).
I've no idea how much 50 bags of chew sticks weigh but it'll be pounds, not ounces.
So,,, the "Canine all in Weight" is considerable...
I reckon I should get rite on that and commence weighing???!

On our current trip we’ve been carrying:

Dog 1 - 26Kg
Dog 2 - 37Kg
200 Tins of dog food - 90 Kg
6 Bags of Biscuits - 72Kg
Dog Beds x 2 - 20Kg

Total - 245Kg

Ian

 

[SteveRallye]

I decided on my old Rapido that even though I was only 40KGS under my max with everything on board (but wife) it was cheaper to upgrade with SVTEC than have a divorce. Joking aside yes I agree with others that weight is the most important thing. Even on current M/H with everthing aboard we needed we were under the overall limit but we were over the rear axle weight so with the aid of the ever helpful SVTEC and airsuspension on the rear got the axle up by 240kgs.

 

[nicholsong]

If the UK does not have to conform to EU standards on licences, it does not have to set the limit at 3,500kg for a standard driving licence.

Take the US, for example. I believe the standard there is 11,700kg, but I don’t profess to know for sure (and I guess it may vary depending on state). Other countries’ licences will differ. But they are all (mostly) recognised by international treaties covered by the various IDPs, whatever limit is set by the country in question.

The UK is signatory to the International Treaties unless it wishes to rescind from those, in which case its licences will not be accepted, even if one applies for an IDP.

So what use would the licence over 3500g be except in UK?

I think the US did not sign, or did not ratify the Treaties, so I do not know what US drivers do outside USA.

Geoff

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