Payload

[nicholsong]

The Advice

When buying used or new, from a dealer or private seller. A Motorhome with a MAM of 4000kg or less. Always ask for a weight certificate, no matter what! Be prepared to hear excuses, ignore them.

Jim

In addition I would want to know what was in the MH when weighed, e.g. fuel, water, persons etc.

There are some dealers who might be tempted to be 'flexible' on this list, so I would want to be present when the MH is weighed, to check for myself.

I do not mind being called a pedantic cynic when parting with a few tens of thousands.

Geoff

 

[Northernraider]

Do you have a wife in there too though ?

No I've got more sense lol

 

[Jim]

Jim

In addition, I would want to know what was in the MH when weighed, e.g. fuel, water, persons etc.

There are some dealers who might be tempted to be 'flexible' on this list, so I would want to be present when the MH is weighed, to check for myself.

I do not mind being called a pedantic cynic when parting with a few tens of thousands.

Geoff

I'm working on a form (that the dealers will one day hopefully provide) signed by the dealer/seller that will leave a buyer in no doubt about the PRECISE payload available.

 

[poppycamper]

Only one answer to this (well three actually)
PAYLOAD
PAYLOAD
PAYLOAD

 

[7735]

To many people particularly ones new to motorhoming do not have a clue about payload or the fact that you cannot drive a vehicle over 3500kg without a C1 licence. I have just seen on E. Bay ( motorhome depot) a Burstner Aviano A class 3 litre engine, 6 berth, 2 batteries, sat television. Plated at 3500 kg. This cannot be legal but many buyers would not be aware.
Spongy

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[tonyidle]

putting themselves and others at risk

I agree with most of what you say but it is rare that a van plated at 3500Kg has a chassis and brakes that will not accept a paper exercise upgrade to at least 3850Kg so in most cases safety systems performance is still within limits.

 

[DerryW]

I agree with most of what you say but it is rare that a van plated at 3500Kg has a chassis and brakes that will not accept a paper exercise upgrade to at least 3850Kg so in most cases safety systems performance is still within limits.

Tonyidle. I believe from 3500kgs to 3700kgs you're correct, its a simple paper exercise (subject to running on 16" tyres) however, above 3700kgs will require the fitting of air assist suspension on the rear axle.

 

[Jim]

I agree with most of what you say but it is rare that a van plated at 3500Kg has a chassis and brakes that will not accept a paper exercise upgrade to at least 3850Kg so in most cases safety systems performance is still within limits.

Tonyidle. I believe from 3500kgs to 3700kgs you're correct, its a simple paper exercise (subject to running on 16" tyres) however, above 3700kgs will require the fitting of air assist suspension on the rear axle.

There are people with lightweight 3500 chassis that started at 3300 so are already on the limit at 3500, going over on these is pushing it.

Tony you are partly right but "at least 3850kg" is wrong for all motorhomes, but it is the case for most Alko chassis. Most motorhomes on the regular van chassis can only go to 3700. and when you say so in most cases safety systems performance is still within limits. Don't forget tyre load rating some people uprate and forget those might be too low.

 

[Malcolm Bolt]

When even a novice looks at a van the layout itself is obvious.
Payload is never obvious.
In manufacturers literature it should be expressed clearly and dealers should have an obligation to explain clearly that number of seats does not mean same as number of belts or berths or payload.

 

[busby]

I don't think Payload is above all, as with any purchase it's a balance.

Most important is budget!
After that its then, in no particular order:

• Number of beds
• Length
• Style
• Layout
• Base vehicle
• Age
• Mileage
• Condition
• Payload
• Additional extras that are 'essential'
• Quality/reputation of the manufacturer, both base and habitation.
• The Dealer & Sales staff
• And then a load of other things such as colour, the leather steering wheel, Alloy wheels etc

Would hope that if you put payload that low down your list that a healthy budget is moved to the top to pay the overloading fines,, BUSBY.

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[busby]

You need 200kg for manufacturers options to start with, awning another 45kg, 2 additional batteries 60 kg 3 solar panels 25kg, TV 3kg, Sat dish 10kg, spare wheel 30kg That's 373kg before you even start loading it. A full water tank is 160kg. So now we have used 533 kg and the van is empty.

And then 85 kg for me and 55 kg for the wife..Memo to me,,must loose weight. BUSBY.

 

[Brains]

Would hope that if you put payload that low down your list that a healthy budget is moved to the top to pay the overloading fines,, BUSBY.

You should never exceed payload!

Many years ago I got pulled on the M1 in a Splitter van, the police took us to the weighbridge, which was about 20 miles away, we were 1kg under the limit!
I have always reckoned the fuel we burnt getting to the weighbridge got us within the limit.

I was just pointing out that payload is one of a number of important decisions you need to 'weigh up' when buying a vehicle.
For example number of beds might be quite important if there are 5 of you, a single double will not be enough!

Jim wrote an article recently that decided that the bare minimum to allow for a couple was 350kg, and that was before the bikes and BBQ!

So payload is critical, but so is budget and beds!

 

[busby]

You should never exceed payload!

Many years ago I got pulled on the M1 in a Splitter van, the police took us to the weighbridge, which was about 20 miles away, we were 1kg under the limit!
I have always reckoned the fuel we burnt getting to the weighbridge got us within the limit.

I was just pointing out that payload is one of a number of important decisions you need to 'weigh up' when buying a vehicle.
For example number of beds might be quite important if there are 5 of you, a single double will not be enough!

Jim wrote an article recently that decided that the bare minimum to allow for a couple was 350kg, and that was before the bikes and BBQ!

So payload is critical, but so is budget and beds!

But it's no good having a 4 or 5 berth with 300 kg of payload ,,the passengers could weigh that,,No way could you take food,chairs,pots pans crockery etc..BUSBY.

 

[jezport]

So, from answers here, a number of motorhome owners are happy driving illegally and with a risk of being uninsured in an accident as long as their van is a layout that suits them or has enough beds.

 

[gus-lopez]

So, from answers here, a number of motorhome owners are happy driving illegally and with a risk of being uninsured in an accident as long as their van is a layout that suits them or has enough beds.

I have a friend who will be arriving here soon. He will not weigh the van ,evenhere 1€,even when I offer to pay I don't know anyone who has any interest in what there vans weigh , except on here.A bit like educating people with trailers that they aren't allowed in the outside lane & they are restricted to 50mph. Waste of time & breath.

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[funflair]

I have a friend who will be arriving here soon. He will not weigh the van ,evenhere 1€,even when I offer to pay I don't know anyone who has any interest in what there vans weigh , except on here.A bit like educating people with trailers that they aren't allowed in the outside lane & they are restricted to 50mph. Waste of time & breath.

Agree about outside lane but I believe it's 60 for Dual carriageways and motorways, A friend got pulled doing 90MPH about 2 o'clock in the morning, the policeman said he was going to let him off till he saw the canoe trailer following him

Martin

 

[busby]

I have a friend who will be arriving here soon. He will not weigh the van ,evenhere 1€,even when I offer to pay I don't know anyone who has any interest in what there vans weigh , except on here.A bit like educating people with trailers that they aren't allowed in the outside lane & they are restricted to 50mph. Waste of time & breath.

They don't want confirming of what they all allready suspect ..Bit like burying your head in the sand.BUSBY.

 

[Brains]

But it's no good having a 4 or 5 berth with 300 kg of payload ,,the passengers could weigh that,,No way could you take food,chairs,pots pans crockery etc..BUSBY.

I agree.

A typical 4 berth would need a minimum 700 kg payload
(and that is on top of 4 x 75kg per person and a full fuel tank and 20kg of water)

However in reality how many 4 berth vehicles have a one ton payload ?
It means that the unloaded vehicle, plated at 3,500 kg would need to be maximum 2,000 kg.
Yet an empty Sprinter delivery van is over 2,000 kg and that is just metal !

What it means is I don't think the typical manufacturer can actually make a vehicle 'fit for purpose' for more that 2 people and under 3500kg

 

[busby]

I agree.

A typical 4 berth would need a minimum 700 kg payload
(and that is on top of 4 x 75kg per person and a full fuel tank and 20kg of water)

However in reality how many 4 berth vehicles have a one ton payload ?
It means that the unloaded vehicle, plated at 3,500 kg would need to be maximum 2,000 kg.
Yet an empty Sprinter delivery van is over 2,000 kg and that is just metal !

What it means is I don't think the typical manufacturer can actually make a vehicle 'fit for purpose' for more that 2 people and under 3500kg

So how many illegal vans are there on the road,,the mind boggles.BUSBY.

 

[Brains]

So how many illegal vans are there on the road,,the mind boggles.BUSBY.

According to one survey done at a rally, (see Jims payload article), 40% were overweight.
And given that it was a rally, I'd guess most of them were two people, packed for a 4 day rally, not families off for their summer holidays with bikes and the kitchen sink

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[nicholsong]

Very few of these discussions about payload take into account the usage of the MHs.

Firstly, the number of people to be carried. If it is for 2 adults and 2 grown teenagers, in school holidays then almost 300kg is used up already.

If one wants to be independent to wildcamp and leave home with full 100lt water and 100lt diesel then that is another 175kg

If however one is driving straight to a campsite with 20lt diesel and 10lt of water then the load is 150kg less.

My point being that when writers say a payload should be a minimum of XXXkg they are not taking account the type of use.

I think that anyone with a licence only for under 3500kg and wanting to take 4 persons would be hard pushed to stay legal, especially if they want to wildcamp.

For us wishing to leave with 2 persons and full water and fuel, we need at least 600kg and I go to weighbridge in that condition and are usually 100kg under on max weight of 3850kg.

Not sure what we do if I lose C1 on Medical grounds. Hopefully when I swap for Polish licence the Medical is a bit easier.

Geoff

 

[Lenny HB]

@Jim wrote an article recently that decided that the bare minimum to allow for a couple was 350kg, and that was before the bikes and BBQ!

What a lot of people don't understand is that factory/dealer/self fitted options actually weight something. You need the 350kg after taking into account the options so in reality you need a minium of 700 kg.

In IMO a van is not fit for purpose if you can't travel with a full water tank.

 

[Brains]

What a lot of people don't understand is that factory/dealer/self fitted options actually weight something. You need the 350kg after taking into account the options so in reality you need a minium of 700 kg.

In IMO a van is not fit for purpose if you can't travel with a full water tank.

Water, as I'm sure you all know, weighs 1 kg per litre

So depending on tank size, a full water tank weighs the same one one or two extra people
Plus fuel, which for the sake of argument also weights 1 kg per litre, so again the weight of a third person
To that you can add some grey and black water.

However I don't think most vehicles were ever designed to haul a full tank of water over much distance, as the plastic water tanks (unlike metal fuel tanks) are not fitted with baffles or surge protectors.

You are likely to pop the top of a fully loaded water tank as the water moves the big access lid, or the pump access or (as used to happen in my yacht in heavy seas) forces the water out of the taps, which are designed to act as pressure escape valves.

Therefore I would always only travel with the minimum amount of water in the tank and fill up at, or close to, my destination. If needed a 20 litre Jerry can will do as emergency back up.

In addition remember that you are paying in fuel for ever extra kilo that you move.
If you can get water at your destination you would be crazy to pay to haul it all the way there.

 

[Jim]

Water, as I'm sure you all know, weighs 1 kg per litre

So depending on tank size, a full water tank weighs the same one one or two extra people
Plus fuel, which for the sake of argument also weights 1 kg per litre, so again the weight of a third person
To that you can add some grey and black water.

However I don't think most vehicles were ever designed to haul a full tank of water over much distance, as the plastic water tanks (unlike metal fuel tanks) are not fitted with baffles or surge protectors.

You are likely to pop the top of a fully loaded water tank as the water moves the big access lid, or the pump access or (as used to happen in my yacht in heavy seas) forces the water out of the taps, which are designed to act as pressure escape valves.

Therefore I would always only travel with the minimum amount of water in the tank and fill up at, or close to, my destination. If needed a 20 litre Jerry can will do as emergency back up.

In addition remember that you are paying in fuel for ever extra kilo that you move.
If you can get water at your destination you would be crazy to pay to haul it all the way there.

For 30 odd years I’ve set off every trip with full water tanks. They certainly don’t need baffles, or maybe they all have them .

 

[tonyidle]

For 30 odd years I’ve set off every trip with full water tanks. They certainly don’t need baffles, or maybe they all have them .

As have I. Arriving at a site, or any location really, means that the start of your trip is a hunt for water. Even on a fully serviced site it means a circuit of the entire site before pitching. I arrive, put it in Park, then relax. At some point I will connect the EHU if available. Other than that I'm good for five days without moving. (I spend time with tugger friends and regularly stay in the same place for 5 days+) .

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[peterc10]

What a lot of people don't understand is that factory/dealer/self fitted options actually weight something. You need the 350kg after taking into account the options so in reality you need a minium of 700 kg.

In IMO a van is not fit for purpose if you can't travel with a full water tank.

I agree with that. My Hymer had a theoretical payload of 1240kg. By the time you took into account all the factory fit options (all specified by the dealer, not me) and dealer fit options (some specified by me) it was down to about 810kg. Hymer listed the weights of all of the factory fit options in their price list so that both the dealer and buyer can calculate what the likely payload would be.

Water, as I'm sure you all know, weighs 1 kg per litre

So depending on tank size, a full water tank weighs the same one one or two extra people
Plus fuel, which for the sake of argument also weights 1 kg per litre, so again the weight of a third person
To that you can add some grey and black water.

However I don't think most vehicles were ever designed to haul a full tank of water over much distance, as the plastic water tanks (unlike metal fuel tanks) are not fitted with baffles or surge protectors.

You are likely to pop the top of a fully loaded water tank as the water moves the big access lid, or the pump access or (as used to happen in my yacht in heavy seas) forces the water out of the taps, which are designed to act as pressure escape valves.

Therefore I would always only travel with the minimum amount of water in the tank and fill up at, or close to, my destination. If needed a 20 litre Jerry can will do as emergency back up.

In addition remember that you are paying in fuel for ever extra kilo that you move.
If you can get water at your destination you would be crazy to pay to haul it all the way there.

I have done 46,000 miles in my previous and existing motorhome and nearly all of those miles were with a full or nearly full fresh water tank with no baffles. No water was forced out of my taps or my tank. Neither needed pressure relief valves because both were fitted with an overflow/vent tube. And the only time that I lost any water out of those overflows was when I forget to turn off the tap when filling them up.

We rarely start out in the morning knowing for sure where we will be that evening, so I didn't know if there would be any water where we chose to stop. To us that is the freedom of having a motorhome.

 

[PeteH]

The VERY first question(s) you ask you self. How old am I?, Will I want to keep going after age 70?. Will I pass the Medical and Eyesight, to retain C1 entitlement. At that point you know if you can go above 3.5t or not. Uprating most `vans to at least 3.8(ish)tonne. is a paper exercise. Down rating means throwing out an awful lot of gear!.

Pay load IMV, for those approaching the "magic number" is crucial, as if you get it wrong it is a very expensive exercise. I loved my R-V`s, but they needed an LGV to drive, with the attendant Annual medical with it`s expense and hassle. I am fortunate personally to be able to pass and (hopefully) keep passing the (3 year) Medical for C1, Still something IMV that is still not necessary. But for many the B1 is all they will ever retain. That means as we are all to aware 3.5t is your maximum, and few if any @ 3.5t have a payload worth talking about.

 

[Pausim]

I would have thought that a half empty tank needs more baffling than a full one that has no room for the water to move around.

The quoted payload is supposed to include a full tank of fuel, a 75kg driver, travelling water, gas and an electric cable. Many manufacturers forget to mention the weight of the “optional extras” some of which are always fitted (they simply don’t build them without). Then you have the 5% allowance on weights which some manufactures make full use of. Quite simply the payload figures given are well disguised marketing figures and there is no alternative to getting individual vehicles weighed.

 

[bigtwin]

For 30 odd years I’ve set off every trip with full water tanks. They certainly don’t need baffles, or maybe they all have them .

Indeed and there is no need for baffles if the tank is full. The contents can only move if the tank is not full so it’d only be those folks who travel partially full who’d have any need for baffles (if they were required at all).

Ian

 

[PeteH]

Tanks and baffles. There is something that is well known in Marine Circles called "Free Surface effect", which is known to affect stabilty. It is in fact what caused the "Herald of Free Enterprize" to actually capsize, after the water got onto the car deck. However apart from some small effect the volumes involved in the vast majority of Motorhomes are too small to cause more than a very slight "sway". Ie; My Winnebago had a 60 (US) gallon tank and even half full it was never (really) noticeable. I have driven the current Rapido with both full and part full fresh Tanks, and cannot say I have ever noticed an issue.

Edit:- for many years, It may still be practice?, we used to "press up" fuel and ballast tanks on principal, as there was less effect on stability from a full tank. What we had to watch for was expansion when the (sea) water temp rose and the Oil expanded, we could get some spillage on deck!. (and a bollocking from the "Chief" for wasting oil!)

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