P&O Ferries told to stay in port

[Jonny1953]

Can a private security firm handcuff someone on a boat in a British port?

Yes.
As the ship is not British

The private security firm should not have been on the ferries as they were contravening the ISPS code

 

[Brains]

The private security firm should not have been on the ferries as they were contravening the ISPS code

View attachment 597784

Arguably the owner can overrule the Master.
(Also handcuffs are not weapons)

(Also this version of the ISPS code was not written with a passenger ship in mind as the ID & baggage checks are carried out on shore not on board. Whilst the Master can overrule customs or immigration, it's a very rare event )

 

[Jonny1953]

Arguably the owner can overrule the Master.
(Also handcuffs are not weapons)

(Also this version of the ISPS code was not written with a passenger ship in mind as the ID & baggage checks are carried out on shore not on board. Whilst the Master can overrule customs or immigration, it's a very rare event )

The master is in total control of his ship and who can board it. When I was engineering manager for shipping companies, if the master did not want me to go on his vessel, that was what happened.

As for the ISPS code, there is only one version, all I posted was an example of a sign that could be on any vessel.for fellow funsters who are not aware of the ISPS code.

 

[CazPaul]

It says on the news P&O reportedly paying the new staff £1.80 an hour which they can do because the ship is registered in Limassol Cyprus. P&O not available for comment it said.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

It says on the news P&O reportedly paying the new staff £1.80 an hour which they can do because the ship is registered in Limassol Cyprus. P&O not available for comment it said.

Says the Union….. who have no vested interest Of course. In such a high profile operation such as this I imagine that they will be paid at ITF rates

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[WillH]

We used private security on Stena vessels when carrying football supporters.
For info Stena have added a third vessel on the Belfast Cairnryan crossing.

 

[PhilandMena]

DFDS threaten to do the same.

P&O's mass sackings put hundreds more ferry jobs at risk, warns rival

DFDS tell Grant Shapps it may have to start using agency workers if he allows "unlevel playing field"

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[DuxDeluxe]

As I said about ITF rates - if the ferry company are paying this on foreign flagged ships, and people will be watching, then there is nothing that the Port inspection can do.

Jonny1953 - I think it the MCA, I seem to remember https://www.gov.uk/guidance/maritime-and-coastguard-agency-port-state-control-expanded-inspections

P&O Ferries could be PROSECUTED if they broke labour laws

The Government has threatened to criminally prosecute and impose unlimited fines on P&O Ferries if the disgraced operator is found to have broken labour laws by sacking 800 seafarers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Jonny1953]

Jonny1953 - I think it the MCA, I seem to remember https://www.gov.uk/guidance/maritime-and-coastguard-agency-port-state-control-expanded-inspections

From my previous experience, the MCA will definitely need to carry out a PSC inspection on these vessels to ensure that the SMS certificates are still valid and also the management if they have been change too., I don't mean senior management but Superintendents, vessel managers, DPA etc. I'm not sure if they can carry out an intermediate DOC audit in the office

Did you see my post #161

 

[DuxDeluxe]

From my previous experience, the MCA will definitely need to carry out a PSC inspection on these vessels to ensure that the SMS certificates are still valid and also the management if they have been change too., I don't mean senior management but Superintendents, vessel managers, DPA etc. I'm not sure if they can carry out an intermediate DOC audit in the office

Did you see my post #161

Thanks - I missed that post, but it is absolutely spot on. Chart corrections….. in the analogue days when I was 2nd mate it was a pain in the neck. Nothing like joining a ship, doing 6 on 6 off cargo watch and discovering that the previous 2nd mate had done none for the last three months …….

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[Langtoftlad]

DuxDeluxe
Can you give us an idea of what ITF rates are in comparison to, say, the UK's minimum wage?

 

[DuxDeluxe]

DuxDeluxe
Can you give us an idea of what ITF rates are in comparison to, say, the UK's minimum wage?

Wages

It is important that you know what wages you are entitled to, and where to turn for support if you are not paid. Your wage rates will depend on whether you are serving on a national flag vessel or a ship covered by an ITF agreement. If your vessel is covered by an ITF agreement, you are entitled...

www.itfseafarers.org

Clearly less than UK minimum wages as you would expect (offshore flagged vessel employing low cost labour like nearly every vessel calling in UK) and based on a working week of 48 hours - my working week was closer to double that.

Yes, it is low, but higher than the Union say and legally applicable

ILO Minimum Wage Jan 2021 -Consolidate Interpretation

www.itfseafarers.org

 

[CazPaul]

Wages

It is important that you know what wages you are entitled to, and where to turn for support if you are not paid. Your wage rates will depend on whether you are serving on a national flag vessel or a ship covered by an ITF agreement. If your vessel is covered by an ITF agreement, you are entitled...

www.itfseafarers.org

Clearly less than UK minimum wages as you would expect (offshore flagged vessel employing low cost labour like nearly every vessel calling in UK) and based on a working week of 48 hours - my working week was closer to double that.

Yes, it is low, but higher than the Union say and legally applicable

ILO Minimum Wage Jan 2021 -Consolidate Interpretation

www.itfseafarers.org

Those wages if I have read them correctly in the link amount to slave Labour, absolutely disgraceful being able to get away with that, regardless of any laws etc

 

[Langtoftlad]

Wages

It is important that you know what wages you are entitled to, and where to turn for support if you are not paid. Your wage rates will depend on whether you are serving on a national flag vessel or a ship covered by an ITF agreement. If your vessel is covered by an ITF agreement, you are entitled...

www.itfseafarers.org

Clearly less than UK minimum wages as you would expect (offshore flagged vessel employing low cost labour like nearly every vessel calling in UK) and based on a working week of 48 hours - my working week was closer to double that.

Yes, it is low, but higher than the Union say and legally applicable

ILO Minimum Wage Jan 2021 -Consolidate Interpretation

www.itfseafarers.org

Even as I was writing my question, I knew there couldn't be a straightforward answer .

However, if P&O could save just £5/hr per employee...
5x48h x52weeks x800employees = nearly £10million per year.
You can see why it was an irresistibly attractive option.

And I'm sure the unions had made sure their members were not on the UK minimum wage.

However, whilst it may be the way the Emirates do labour relations [...and I believe it is, based on my knowledge of middle eastern airlines], the way P&O handled this was abhorrent.

BA did something very similar at the end of furlough, but before any flying had really restarted.
But they kept it out of the media, probably because they handled it a bit differently, probably because there's little sympathy for "overpaid glorified waitresses" and probably also because at the time, the airline was haemorrhaging cash.

Cabin crew were offered two basic choices - new contract or voluntary severance [and if you didn't choose, then compulsory redundancy]. Previously we were split, longhaul or shorthaul and our home lives were based on this.
Parents on shorthaul were suddenly faced with not being home every night but maybe 8 days away on a trip to Australia. People, like myself, on longhaul were faced with daily commutes [mine was 220 miles round trip] to operate a 40 minute Paris. Coupled with 40% cut in income.
But at least BA got involved with the Unions, and did offer a severance package, and there were real discussions.
However, my contract as I had no longer existed.
BA had been preparing and chipping away for years. All new starters joined Mixed Fleet, their contract is very nearly Zero Hours... and most of these newbies either still live at home, or rent part of a room in a flat.
But of course - being cabin crew is glamourous, so they still have a queue of people wanting to do the job, regardless of the money.

 

[Jonny1953]

Even as I was writing my question, I knew there couldn't be a straightforward answer .

However, if P&O could save just £5/hr per employee...
5x48h x52weeks x800employees = nearly £10million per year.
You can see why it was an irresistibly attractive option.

You are right that it looks a considerable saving, but it is probably less than the fuel costs for a cross channel ferry for a year

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[Langtoftlad]

You are right that it looks a considerable saving, but it is probably less than the fuel costs for a cross channel ferry for a year

When you can't raise income, you can only cut costs... and I doubt they have the equivalent of www.petrolprices.com in port

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Those wages if I have read them correctly in the link amount to slave Labour, absolutely disgraceful being able to get away with that, regardless of any laws etc

Believe me, it is a lot more than, say, Filipinos would earn even doing a decent job in Manila (I have been there, recruited and employed them for the Mid East) and to them and others is actually a decent wage with a lot of topping up with overtime. We simply cannot judge those wages by our own standards. It is not slave labour - if you want that, have a look at Bangladeshi construction workers building the Qatar world cup Stadia.

As I said, it might sound abhorrent but those rates have been agreed and implemented by the International Labour Organisation which is the oldest part of the United Nations. As Stephen Langtoftlad said, the NUS - sorry RMT workers will be on nowhere near Minimum wage. Think Tube drivers........ I have dealt with NUS crew when at sea and at that time it reminded me of UK shipyards in the '70's. That killed them and the NUS contributed to the killing of the UK crewed and flagged fleets. They flagged my fleet out for that very reason in 1985

 

[Jonny1953]

When you can't raise income, you can only cut costs... and I doubt they have the equivalent of www.petrolprices.com in port

You would be surprised, most UK shipping companies would "fix" their bunker costs through a hedge fund to insure against fuel price rises

 

[DuxDeluxe]

You are right that it looks a considerable saving, but it is probably less than the fuel costs for a cross channel ferry for a year

They do hedge their fuel costs in much the same way as airlines do and as we effectively do with fixed priced energy deals.

edit Jonny1953 got there as I was typing

 

[Jonny1953]

I have dealt with NUS crew when at sea and at that time it reminded me of UK shipyards in the '70's. That killed them and the NUS contributed to the killing of the UK crewed and flagged fleets. They flagged my fleet out for that very reason in 1985

I was at Cammel Laird Shipbuilders in the 80s and early 90s, we only built ships for the RN, we couldn't compete with foreign shipyards for commercial work because of the way the unions had virtually killed the yard off in the 70s

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[DuxDeluxe]

I was at Cammel Laird Shipbuilders in the 80s and early 90s, we only built ships for the RN, we couldn't compete with foreign shipyards for commercial work because of the way the unions had virtually killed the yard off in the 70s

In the good old days when I was a baby cadet, we went on a tour around Brigham and Smashem’s yard and it was horrifying to even see….. and the worst built ship by far was built at Swan Hunters yard Wallsend - at guarantee dry dock she spent about 9 months in Livorno having the already corroded double bottoms fixed. I did 2 trips on that hateful piece of junk as chief mate and standard practice was to have rubber packing and industrial strength hose screw clips ready whenever a cargo pump was started - bang! Yet another hole in the cargo pipes, even after a shore squad had spent a week fixing and re-lagging them. Try band aiding an 8 or 10” deck pipe that is leaking liquid ammonia. Cargo engineer and myself picked up some epic bollock/armpit burns as we never asked the crew to do anything we would not do ourselves and also needed to be sure of as good a repair as possible. I quit and positively welcomed the ship being flagged out.

Edit…. Just to be clear, the (South Asian) crew were more than willing to help and were very good at holding breath and handing tools as needed. We had BA sets on

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Money talks……….. a rough over the thumb calculation is that they get an average of £48K each

P&O Ferries offers £100,000 to some sacked staff

The firm says it didn't break law over sackings as it shares details of £36.5m compensation plan.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[EuroTrotters]

did someone say £1.91 for Indian crew?

 

[olley]

P&O will soon be operating again I believe, lorry queues are already building up, their dominant position on Channel crossing will make the gov cave in.

 

[EuroTrotters]

If rather pay the French crews a decent wage a screw the UAE slave labour rates.

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[DuxDeluxe]

did someone say £1.91 for Indian crew?

Please do have a read of the posts above about Labour rates.

If rather pay the French crews a decent wage a screw the UAE slave labour rates.

Well, please have a read a few posts above about the relative rates of pay. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye and don’t necessarily believe what the RMT say

 

[dash300]

As has been discussed elswhere in the media they should be stripped of any reference to being in any way representative of anything British.
Their ships should be renamed the Pride of Dubai, Spirit of Kolcatta etc. etc.
They are certainly not the Pride or Spirit of anything British. Not sure the French Belgians or Dutch would have the same view of their association with such an outfit.

 

[2657]

P&O will soon be operating again I believe, lorry queues are already building up, their dominant position on Channel crossing will make the gov cave in.

If they have such a dominant position why can they not increase prices instead of cutting labour costs

When you can't raise income, you can only cut costs... and I doubt they have the equivalent of www.petrolprices.com in port

 

[EuroTrotters]

Please do have a read of the posts above about Labour rates.

Well, please have a read a few posts above about the relative rates of pay. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye and don’t necessarily believe what the RMT say

My family have spent a lot of time working in the UAE. Even someone I know got caught up in Slave labour by a Black American employer

You wouldn't believe it and I can't write it due to legal reasons.

The Woman C'Vine Lawrence running the show
Does not pay her staff or bills
Featured in "Vogue" Magazine
Dubai Labour Department not taking action
Imports Labour from around the globe, houses them in a catch 22 residency situation (that is, housed, can't afford to leave, have to work to be homed, no pay, etc).

Still trading. Modern Day Slavery. Same as many people caught up in the Middle Eastern dream.

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en.vogue.me

 

[DuxDeluxe]

My family have spent a lot of time working in the UAE. Even someone I know got caught up in Slave labour by a Black American employer

You wouldn't believe it and I can't write it due to legal reasons.

The Woman C'Vine Lawrence running the show
Does not pay her staff or bills
Featured in "Vogue" Magazine
Dubai Labour Department not taking action
Imports Labour from around the globe, houses them in a catch 22 residency situation (that is, housed, can't afford to leave, have to work to be homed, no pay, etc).

Still trading.

Are Salon Subscriptions the Future of Grooming?

Operating on a subscription basis, new grooming concept CNB House of Beauty is launching in Jumeirah, Dubai.

en.vogue.me

I spent a very long time working all over the Mid East and know very well the appalling conditions the Labour are working under and know all about it - Bangladeshi Stevedores working for 300 Saudi Riyals a month with accommodation and food deducted for a 2 year contract (plus they have to pay the bung to the recruiter)……. However, in a high profile position such as this they will be paid at or above ITF rates as posted above, which is not comparable with UK rates and the same as any other foreign flagged ship trading into and around UK. I agree that they are not high but please do not compare them with the slave Labour conditions (I already mentioned the construction workers for the Qatari World Cup stadia) in some parts of the Mid East. This is highly visible and very open to scrutiny. P&O (don’t forget they did the same to me) will have had lawyers crawling all over this and I would be surprised if they have done anything illegal. Plenty of utterly despicable and immoral stuff, yes (as one of my best mates and ex employee reminded me this morning when I cut costs out of our Mid East business) but not, unfortunately, outside the law. That agency (same one that P&O used to replace their seagoing staff in 1985 due to high costs and NUS - now RMT costs) will have had people queueing up for those jobs.

I don’t in any way support what they have done, but have been on both sides of the fence and as I said, there is more to this than meets the eye. If you do not agree, then we simply agree to disagree

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