Lithium? The big con?

[mikash]

Am I right in thinking that an inverter that is of an overly large capacity for the jobs it's doing will waste energy when in use, never mind when unused but left on?

Overly large inverter will definitely waste more energy unused, but atleast as far as Victron inverter-chargers go,the large units have better peak efficiency and the peak is at around 20% of maximum power rating. So for the typical 500W-1500W loads from kitchen utilies etc the large units are actually significantly more efficient than a smaller "sized to fit"-unit.
And then there's the increased charger size to consider as well, which might or might not be a factor.

 

[funflair]

So are manufacturers still installing three way fridges?

Terribly inefficient. Compressor should be the way.

Tony

Then you need more Lithium just to keep up with the fridge as well but yes I agree.

 

[Neckender]

I could be sat here in Neckender s T5 and clearly is happy as in my luxury branded motorhome, and been able to airfry my steak.

EXCUSE me my T5 is an upmarket T6.1.

 

[Jim]

But, it wasn't a financially realistic option for me, versus the Gel alternative.

Thats true for many, if they are only off grid at summer rallies, and otherwise mostly on hookup, the cost of lithium in recent times probably wasn't worth it.

But in 2025, with Lithium probably being much cheaper per useable AH than Gel; then for me, its a no brainer to go LiFePO4

 

[Happy Jack]

We have 190A of AGM,so effectively 95; 300w of solar.
12v fridge/freezer pulling average of 2.2A, 58.8A per day.
That = more than 1/2 capacity.
Diesel hob and Diesel heating; lighting.
No b2b, no inverter.
We can't do without Sun or EHU for more than 1 day.
UK based only for now.
We tailor our trips to suit weather conditions , we also keep an eye on the shunt display but I also regularly check with everything switched off for parasitic drain.
which gets me to my point.
The OP seems to be ignoring the 4A drain he has even with everything seemingly off as he said.

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[eddie]

Overly large inverter will definitely waste more energy unused, but atleast as far as Victron inverter-chargers go,the large units have better peak efficiency and the peak is at around 20% of maximum power rating. So for the typical 500W-1500W loads from kitchen utilies etc the large units are actually significantly more efficient than a smaller "sized to fit"-unit.
And then there's the increased charger size to consider as well, which might or might not be a factor.

I have a Victron Multiplus on the incoming supply that monitors all of my AC requirements balancing and assisting where necessary. I also have a small 400w pure sine wave inverter in series with the TV and surround sound system

That way, we have the benefit of the multi plus, but of an evening watching TV the small inverter is doing its job efficiently

 

[Rogerwyn]

That’s the great thing about us lot we all have different power requirements and not one of us will have the same setup, personally I would not have a manufacturer or dealer to add these kind of extras your better of doing it yourself (if capable) or get it done by specialist company like vanbitz who know what their doing and for a fraction of the price,

 

[mikash]

I have a Victron Multiplus on the incoming supply that monitors all of my AC requirements balancing and assisting where necessary. I also have a small 400w pure sine wave inverter in series with the TV and surround sound system

That way, we have the benefit of the multi plus, but of an evening watching TV the small inverter is doing its job efficiently

That sounds pretty neat. I've considered a double inverter setup aswell since I have similar low current constant draw usage requirement for remote working. Currently I'm looking for a decent 12V external display setup though and if I find one, I could do without the smaller inverter completely as my remaining (inverter-run) 230V loads would mostly be high powered stuff like AC, induction stove, microwave and airfryer, well suited for the multiplus. Then it'd just be a matter of deciding if squeezing a 5000kVA unit in would be worth it, or if a 3000kVA unit would do.

 

[Paul F]

Well this is clearly an emotive subject - and one that I have enjoyed reading the various vehemently expressed views about!!

For me its simple….with a bank of 330Ah you can consume 1A for 330 hours, or 330A for 1 hour, or any permutation in between, and when its empty you have to put some more in!

You really can make your battery bank last almost as long as you want by making appropriate consumption choices, and finding a way to replenish what you have used.

In answer to the original point, there is no Con as far as I can see. The marketing people promoting lithium have done what they are paid to do. They exaggerate the positive, withhold the negative, and rely on the fact that a large percentage of their target audience will not bother to research or understand what they are buying.

Is that really any different to anything we choose to buy. Electric vehicles are a perfect, and a very apt comparison. The mileage ranges claimed look really appealing, and can be achieved……as long as you travel at optimum speed with minimal braking, on a flat road, without your heating, lights, radio, heated seats, windows, and mirrors, sat nav and every other electrical appliance running and draining your energy reserves.

Buyer beware is the underlying message in my view!

Lithium batteries are a massive technological step forward from lead acid, and nobody can really challenge that. However, the salesmen may be a little bit guilty of selling a false dream, which really doesn't surprise me at all!!

 

[Landy Andy]

Interesting reading.

So you can have a standard battery system, and worry about the amount of power, or spend thousands believing what the sellers and users on here tell you, and worry about the amount of power you have. Very much understand what I think haganap is saying. The people on here who have bought into it, and the sellers of it constantly go on about how good it is. But in reality it’s a lighter, faster battery system, but at a high cost. A generator, especially efoy system is far better in terms of all the power you will ever need.

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[haganap]

Ok, so just to try and add back in a bit of humour in to this post as some are taking things way to seriously.
No Martin funflair I'm not going for 1000 watts of lithium.. clearly that would be a waste and not enough for my power needs i need 2000 at least.

I do laugh at the way people try and justify their expenditure, I do it myself.

This expenditure would have been 8k. Would I have been happy about its result? Nah,. If i can't play my PlayStation cook on my air fryer surf the Internet and do nikkis hair then clearly nothing will ever meet my needs.
There will never be a lithium set up capable for my needs..

The reality as is, and seen by many on here still running their gel batteries, quite lovely, coping well with their 100amp .. good for you.. if its working then don't get drawn in to the hype...

I've heard it and seen it written so often on here. "Since installing lithium I've never had to worry"

Neither did I...

But because of the hype you lot sold me I now do and have to go back to cooking on gas, towel drying nikkis hair and reading a book by candlelight as opposed to watching TV..

Anyhow, in other news, I've just ran the engine for an hour whilst I went out for an 1hrs run..

Nikki can now do her hair and has convinced me to take her out for steak, see even more bloody cost of a failed lithium experiment...

 

[pandas]

Ok, so just to try and add back in a bit of humour in to this post as some are taking things way to seriously.
No Martin funflair I'm not going for 1000 watts of lithium.. clearly that would be a waste and not enough for my power needs i need 2000 at least.

I do laugh at the way people try and justify their expenditure, I do it myself.

This expenditure would have been 8k. Would I have been happy about its result? Nah,. If i can't play my PlayStation cook on my air fryer surf the Internet and do nikkis hair then clearly nothing will ever meet my needs.
There will never be a lithium set up capable for my needs..

The reality as is, and seen by many on here still running their gel batteries, quite lovely, coping well with their 100amp .. good for you.. if its working then don't get drawn in to the hype...

I've heard it and seen it written so often on here. "Since installing lithium I've never had to worry"

Neither did I...

But because of the hype you lot sold me I now do and have to go back to cooking on gas, towel drying nikkis hair and reading a book by candlelight as opposed to watching TV..

Anyhow, in other news, I've just ran the engine for an hour whilst I went out for an 1hrs run..

Nikki can now do her hair and has convinced me to take her out for steak, see even more bloody cost of a failed lithium experiment...
View attachment 995101

You could use a charcoal bbq for the steak though, the best way to cook it anyhow in my view!

 

[oldiesontour]

Ok, so just to try and add back in a bit of humour in to this post as some are taking things way to seriously.
No Martin funflair I'm not going for 1000 watts of lithium.. clearly that would be a waste and not enough for my power needs i need 2000 at least.

I do laugh at the way people try and justify their expenditure, I do it myself.

This expenditure would have been 8k. Would I have been happy about its result? Nah,. If i can't play my PlayStation cook on my air fryer surf the Internet and do nikkis hair then clearly nothing will ever meet my needs.
There will never be a lithium set up capable for my needs..

The reality as is, and seen by many on here still running their gel batteries, quite lovely, coping well with their 100amp .. good for you.. if its working then don't get drawn in to the hype...

I've heard it and seen it written so often on here. "Since installing lithium I've never had to worry"

Neither did I...

But because of the hype you lot sold me I now do and have to go back to cooking on gas, towel drying nikkis hair and reading a book by candlelight as opposed to watching TV..

Anyhow, in other news, I've just ran the engine for an hour whilst I went out for an 1hrs run..

Nikki can now do her hair and has convinced me to take her out for steak, see even more bloody cost of a failed lithium experiment...
View attachment 995101

Instead of wasting all that energy running and burning diesel ,get an exercise bike with added alternator You pedal she dries

 

[Tombola]

Seems to me the problem isn't the lithium replacement, rather than replacing the efoy.

 

[MisterB]

I'm having problems with my bank account. I keep putting money in every month, but if I use too much one month, then I don't have any left until I put some more money in ....
I suppose I really need to reduce my spending and try to spread it out over the month, instead of spending loads when I have loads of money and then worrying when I don't have much left ...

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[haganap]

I'm having problems with my bank account. I keep putting money in every month, but if I use too much one month, then I don't have any left until I put some more money in ....
I suppose I really need to reduce my spending and try to spread it out over the month, instead of spending loads when I have loads of money and then worrying when I don't have much left ...

Well. Then I would suggest an interest free credit card until such time your balance is back..

Or as you are aligning your speculation to the thread..

Substitute an interest free credit card for an efoy, and staying on the banking front, not spending a vast amount on something to put you in a place you already were...

Follow me for more great financial tips..

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

I'm having problems with my bank account. I keep putting money in every month, but if I use too much one month, then I don't have any left until I put some more money in ....
I suppose I really need to reduce my spending and try to spread it out over the month, instead of spending loads when I have loads of money and then worrying when I don't have much left ...

You need to arrange an overdraft , and the OP using his stored energy up at that rate needs to organise another reserve battery.
Mike.

 

[eddie]

I know and really like Paul

But, to be fair he is simply using too much power

I am and can be 100% hook up free.

However, I'm sat on CMC site with 16 amp hook up...It's Winter and I want to be here for four nights and we don't compromise. If we were wildcamping in Scotland we'd be more frugal power wise

As as to being dupped? I wasn't and 99% of Lithium users on here don't feel dupped either, just one man LOL and the bandwagon is jumped on by those that think Lithium is too scary/too old to understand Lithium/too tight to invest in their happiness/can't afford it/not got permission from their missus (delete as applicable)(don't drip about any that don't apply to you)(we all know it's the last one anyway!)

 

[B+W vanman]

Don’t mention “lithium”, Polly, someone did once and I’m not sure he got away with it………

 

[fishplug]

But in reality it’s a lighter, faster battery system, but at a high cost.

..um.. yes and no. My first van build 7 years ago would have been a high cost. My current van build is a higher initial capital expenditure, but with the battery life expectancy of lithium v AGM then the total cost of ownership of a lithium battery today is significantly less than an AGM.

I personally wouldn't go back now as the tipping point has been more than reached.

Going back to my earlier post about 'putting in what you take out' - the second option is to have a big enough battery bank to cope with your desired 'off grid' stay and then charge up when you get home. It's an expensive option, but might suit some.

Hairdryer? Stick a tube over the diesel heater outlet and use a fraction of the electric of an inverter/hairdryer combo. Might not reach the desired WAF metrics, but it'll do the job.

I get that we all have different priorities, but I do think that anyone who expects to be able to have the same unlimited energy supply that they do at home while off grid and not on EHU really needs to take a step back and re-evaluate things objectively.

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[Tombola]

use the tesla as a tow car simple.
then use its battery power.

BTW haganap I didnt bump into you at Bron y Wendon site North Wales did I about 5 years ago, where I was admiring your N&B with you and your wife came out.
He told me he had just bought it 2nd hand and the previous owner had 8 - 10k of power installed

 

[jongood]

Then of course there is the subject of the continuous battery drain that has yet to be identified and the possibility that your fridge is still running on 12v when the engine is not running. In any case the fridge should only be on 12v when the engine is running and should be on the engine battery NOT the leisure side.

Asfaik Niesmann always were wired to allow the user to run the fridge off 12v leisure battery when they wished to. Relying on the end user to do it intelligently. It is a pretty useful feature on a longer ferry asvlongvas the batteries are good enough.

 

[Lenny HB]

If the alternator is big enough

It will probably be 160/170 amp fairly normal on Motorhomes, maybe more on an N&B.

 

[fred_jb]

Substitute an interest free credit card for an efoy, and staying on the banking front, not spending a vast amount on something to put you in a place you already were...

Follow me for more great financial tips..

Surely the expenditure has not put you where you already were? For a start you now have the ability to generate 3000W of AC - did you have that before? And with a reasonable level of control over your power consumption, you would not be needing to carry around what seems to be a limited output, expensive, and borderline dangerous methanol fueled DC generator.

Maybe I exaggerate, not being familiar with efoys, but it seems that as an example an EFOY Pro 2800 at around £7k only gets you 125W of output, which is about 10A at 12V. Something like this might have been fine in your previous van where your power consumption was evidently much lower, but would not go far towards offsetting the increased power consumption in your current scenario. You are not going to be running an air fryer off a lead acid battery connected to one of these, so you are not really comparing like with like!

If you added an efoy of this spec to your current setup then you would be able to generate about 240 Ah in a 24 hour period. However this would recharge about 5 times slower than a 50A B2B or 50A mains charger. Also at very much greater equipment cost. If you can't accept having to use a hook up or do some driving every few days, then I guess an efoy or a generator would be the only solution, but not one that I would be keen on.

 

[Landy Andy]

However, I'm sat on CMC site with 16 amp hook up...It's Winter and I want to be here for four nights and we don't compromise. If we were wildcamping in Scotland we'd be more frugal power wise

So you’ve had to go to a site, pay for, and use electricity, just like a pauper without lithium.

That’s not how’s it’s sold via the trade sellers, or those who have forked out the money to install it. You get the “ never need to plug into EHU again” and “I’ve not need a hook up in years” comments.

When in reality these that have it installed are getting anxiety about their power that Efoy would solve.

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[haganap]

I know and really love Paul

But, to be fair she, nikki is simply using too much power

I am and can be 100% hook up free, but I don't need a hairdryer and steak cooked in an air fryer..

However, I'm sat on CMC site with 16 amp hook up...It's Winter and I want to be here for four nights and we don't compromise. If we were wildcamping in Scotland we'd be more frugal power wise, but with an effoy i wouldn't need to be.

As as to being dupped? I wasn't and 99% of Lithium users on here don't feel dupped , just one woman who was promised a no problem hair style for new year LOL and the bandwagon is jumped on by those that think Lithium is too scary/too old to understand Lithium/too tight to invest in their happiness/can't afford it/not got permission from their missus (delete as applicable)(don't drip about any that don't apply to you)(we all know it's the last one anyway!)

I've corrected above for you Eddie...


But, here's a true story and why I travel a 400 mile round trip to Vambitz.
Last year when I went to see Ash to have a victron multiplus fitted 3 weeks before selling the van I was adamant that I wanted Lithium fitted.

He went through my set up, 2x110 banners, b2b and efoy, and the new multiplus. He discussed my usage and the fact that this particular efoy couldn't be used for Lithium so would need dumping. He said.... I wouldn't bother.. keep it as you have it, it works perfectly for you.
No truer word spoken, hence when I went back a few weeks ago for my alarm on this van. I suggested to Nick that I need more solar. He simply said why? I couldn't explain it to him.
Honesty is what sells..
The counter view i had with the carthago from a n other.. was dump the efoy, throw a load of lithium at it and I/we would never look back. It would change the game, no discussions about power use, no pros and cons...

use the tesla as a tow car simple.
then use its battery power.

BTW haganap I didnt bump into you at Bron y Wendon site North Wales did I about 5 years ago, where I was admiring your N&B with you and your wife came out.
He told me he had just bought it 2nd hand and the previous owner had 8 - 10k of power installed

No not mine i don't think, not unless 2 great big newfoundland were licking you to death.
My last N & B sorry, my last one i had 5 years ago, I've had two since did have about 8k spent on it months before I bought it, but that was on self levelling and air suspension.

 

[jumar]

Is this the right time to mention Portable Power Banks..?

 

[Lenny HB]

Now the next moan from Paul once he has upgraded his batteries will be I can't use 3000 Watts of load on my inverter.

The output of a Multiplus 3000 is 3000va not 3000 watts. It is rated at 2400 watts.

It will only allow a load of 3000 watts if the load has a Power Factor of 1 like an old fasbion electric bar fire. Most modern equipment has a lower power factor.

One big advantage of the Multiplus 3000 is the built in 120 amp charger & it's other special features when on EHU.

 

[Raul]

Here is my consumption for the last 6 months on the van, since early spring, managed on solar and later from October on soar and B2B. Yesterday, was my first plug in for the season and raked in about 8.5kwh from EHU. My next hookup charge will be weeks away, we don't live in the van but gets regular use, and still got gas from Greece almost a year later.

 

[Lenny HB]

Is this the right time to mention Portable Power Banks..?

NO

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