Lithium? The big con?

[fishplug]

When in reality these that have it installed are getting anxiety about their power that Efoy would solve.

Certainly not in my case, but then I've done my research, been honest about my power needs, put in redundancy wherever possible and stuck to a 12v system and been as frugal as possible while still having the creature comforts I need.

I fully accept that boiling a kettle on 12v and waiting 20 mins for a single cup is tedious - so I have gas.

I acknowledge that using 12v to 240v on an inverter only to use a transformer to step that back down to 11-15v to power my laptop is inefficient in the extreme.

I also realise that while modern technology allows so much more luxury than the camping I did as a kid in a VW type 2, I don't expect to be able to run a deep fat fryer while simultaneously running a Starlink, and an ARC welder from a 50Ah battery....

It's just about being realistic.

 

[haganap]

Surely the expenditure has not put you where you already were? For a start you now have the ability to generate 3000W of AC - did you have that before? And with a reasonable level of control over your power consumption, you would not be needing to carry around what seems to be a limited output, expensive, and borderline dangerous methanol fueled DC generator.

Maybe I exaggerate, not being familiar with efoys, but it seems that as an example an EFOY Pro 2800 at around £7k only gets you 125W of output, which is about 10A at 12V. Something like this might have been fine in your previous van where your power consumption was evidently much lower, but would not go far towards offsetting the increased power consumption in your current scenario. You are not going to be running an air fryer off a lead acid battery connected to one of these, so you are not really comparing like with like!

If you added an efoy of this spec to your current setup then you would be able to generate about 240 Ah in a 24 hour period. However this would recharge about 5 times slower than a 50A B2B or 50A mains charger. Also at very much greater equipment cost. If you can't accept having to use a hook up or do some driving every few days, then I guess an efoy or a generator would be the only solution, but not one that I would be keen on.

Interesting, but just a few points.
My power consumption hasn't changed. The efoy was in previous vans which were similar. In fact when the kids came probably more.
We skied in Aires for days and days, had laptops etc etc. Nikki even done her hair.
We may have been a little more frugal but can't say we were. However we did have a large amount of solar which is very useful high up in the alps.

Your understanding of an efoy or as you say lack of living with it is probably clouding the judgement.
I'm in a really good place to compare the two. I've used an efoy, they aren't dangerous, or no more than gas. We lived how we liked and it then kicked in right through the night if needed to keep the batteries topped up. It was silent, didn't take up much space.
In an ideal world I would have loved an Oman generator and the argument would then stop, but I wouldn't like the noise of even the."silent" generator.

Lithium clearly works for many people, it's worked for me from March to this week.. but it ain't and never will be a substitute for full on hook up, and people should know and undertake that instead of trying to either sell it as that or explain to their better halves how they just blew 8k of savings of the next best thing..


I remember, and I'm sure others do to who have been in this game a long time..

Solar it's the way forward, it's a game changer, people spanking hundreds up the wall for the game changing experience.. it helped but never ever would beat a generator for power.

 

[Landy Andy]

Certainly not in my case, but then I've done my research, been honest about my power needs, put in redundancy wherever possible and stuck to a 12v system and been as frugal as possible while still having the creature comforts I need.

I fully accept that boiling a kettle on 12v and waiting 20 mins for a single cup is tedious - so I have gas.

I acknowledge that using 12v to 240v on an inverter only to use a transformer to step that back down to 11-15v to power my laptop is inefficient in the extreme.

I also realise that while modern technology allows so much more luxury than the camping I did as a kid in a VW type 2, I don't expect to be able to run a deep fat fryer while simultaneously running a Starlink, and an ARC welder from a 50Ah battery....

It's just about being realistic.

I’m the same. Two old fashioned batteries, no solar, no b2b, no lithium and have never run out of power. Even sat as I am now in the snow, with heating, tv, and cooking inside with no power concerns.

 

[MisterB]

To be fair, I think haganap is bemoaning the lack of an Efoy more than the benefits (or limitations) of lithium. They are large users of power, that's 'how they roll' and there's nothing wrong with that, we're all different. I've never had the benefit of Efoy but if they have had it previously, then I can understand their frustration with the lithium dream that does seem to be the norm.
The reality is that lithium doesn't meet everyones expectations, desires or even needs and an exhaustable power supply will eventually run out as would an Efoy at some stage ....

EHU might just be the new sliced loaf ....

 

[Jim]

I’m the same. Two old fashioned batteries, no solar, no b2b, no lithium and have never run out of power.

You never run out of power. I use a lot more than you and neither do I.

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[Jim]

but it ain't and never will be a substitute for full on hook up,

It is for me from March to November, during those months I have too much power and often share it with fly leads to neighbours. If my gas heating didn't eat electricity with abandon, then I'd likely never hook up again.

 

[Pausim]

limited output, expensive, and borderline dangerous methanol fueled DC generator.

I had an Efoy 140 in my last motorhome but have not yet installed it in my new van. I do not consider it dangerous and neither do my insurance company. When I first asked NFU about an Efoy they had not come across one before and referred it to the underwriter’s technical department. They asked for technical details of the unit and the storage of the methanol before deciding that there was no additional risk, or charge. I tried to flatten one of the empty methanol containers to take up less room in the waste bin and it took a major effort to damage it. In my estimation the ethanol represents no greater risk than either the gas cylinder or the lead acid engine battery.

Yes expensive to buy but the output is only limited if you look to recharge your battery in a short drive or whilst there are a few hours of sunshine. It just takes longer but who cares because it can work silently 24 hours a day.

I'm in a really good place to compare the two. I've used an efoy, they aren't dangerous, or no more than gas. We lived how we liked and it then kicked in right through the night if needed to keep the batteries topped up. It was silent, didn't take up much space.

I agree.

 

[fred_jb]

So you’ve had to go to a site, pay for, and use electricity, just like a pauper without lithium.

That’s not how’s it’s sold via the trade sellers, or those who have forked out the money to install it. You get the “ never need to plug into EHU again” and “I’ve not need a hook up in years” comments.

When in reality these that have it installed are getting anxiety about their power that Efoy would solve.

I upgraded my van with a 300Ah lithium battery and other associated stuff simply so that I would have the ability to stay in one place and off grid for around three days, maybe longer in the summer when my 280W panels will help. I fitted a 50A B2B and 50A mains charger so that when I do need to recharge it will be fairly quick.

I have never seen any advertising of the products I have used that suggested I would never have to use an EHU again, and if I had I wouldn't have believed it! It is all about maintaining the balance between power out and power in, which is where having a shunt gives you the information needed to manage this. I can even monitor mine when away from the van if I leave my router running.

 

[jongood]

We have 190A of AGM,so effectively 95; 300w of solar.
12v fridge/freezer pulling average of 2.2A, 58.8A per day.
That = more than 1/2 capacity.
Diesel hob and Diesel heating; lighting.
No b2b, no inverter.
We can't do without Sun or EHU for more than 1 day.
UK based only for now.
We tailor our trips to suit weather conditions , we also keep an eye on the shunt display but I also regularly check with everything switched off for parasitic drain.
which gets me to my point.
The OP seems to be ignoring the 4A drain he has even with everything seemingly off as he said.

Our alde pulls around 4a on gas. You're gonna need heating in UK winter, especially with an unhappy wife

 

[Jim]

When in reality these that have it installed are getting anxiety about their power that Efoy would solve.

A lot less anxiety when you have a lithium setup. I have 600AH I'm a heavy user like Paul, but never worry about it, let alone get anxious. Especially when LiFePO4 charges so fast.

I once had 7 x 100AH Lead Acid Batteries in an RV of mine, never used to worry them either, well I did, when it came to charging them, it used to take about 4 days

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[cyberyacht]

To return to the financial analogy, as Mr Micawber observed "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty-pound ought and six, result misery."

Lithium, even like Mr Millipede's National Grid is not an infinite resource. If you are talking an 'in extremis' backup then a Honda generator and a gallon of petrol.

 

[gus-lopez]

The advert says "never have to worry about shore power again"

unless you use excessive amounts like most Uk households do.

Ok here you go, straight out the Niesman Brochure, checkable on their website.

A claim that is nonsense... it should have an asterix and a bold highlight reading...
When we say your way, we mean providing you are not in the UK in winter and you have a wife with hair.

There are loads of false promises out there. Glad I wasn't taken in by it.


View attachment 995051



.View attachment 995051

It says it plainly. "Several" days .Most would take that as 4 days as "a few" is three. You met the sales blurb

but like the op said you can only last a few days in winter

as above.What was advertised

The dream is that with lithium, solar and an inverter you can practically camp for ever in your van, living as if one were at home and never running out of power.

Anyone believing anything like that should be taken away by the people in white coats

a book by candlelight as opposed to watching TV..

rechargeable head torch .Can recommend them. Doesn't annoy anyone sleeping when you're reading

Anyhow, in other news, I've just ran the engine for an hour

I can only imagine what the catalyst, sensors & the particulate filter thought of that?

have the same unlimited energy supply that they do at home

as above.If people had to pay for each Kw or Amp of the incoming power supply they would certainly be more conscious of usage.

Is this the right time to mention Portable Power Banks..?

Yes ,bring it on.I'm looking at a larger one to run the house as against a fixed system

I've used an efoy, they aren't dangerous, or no more than gas.

unfortunately they are.You won't go blind getting lpg on your body but methanol & ethanol, if in contact with skin, are absorbed & the body retains it forever. too much & loss of sight occurs. Apart from the other fact that either are extremely flammable .
I remember a safety officer at a meeting at an oil refinery explaining all the differences
" throw petrol on a coal fire ,it flashes off with a woomp,
throw acetone on it blows the coals out in to the room,
throw methanol on & it blows the room out in to the street"
Other thing is you have to have a halon, powder or CO2,fire extinguisher minimum for methanol but foam is best.

 

[AdrianChen]

Thanks for the rest but I think this is a bit unfair.

I'm asking people to tell me it's not, not justify it as being useless.
I'm comparing it with what I've had before for a number of years without an issue.. My current drain now is 2.1 amps

oldiesontour this is a factory fitted system from one of the very best motorhoming manufacturers in the world (allegedly). Your response is pretty much nail on the head...
The advert says "never have to worry about shore power again"

It would be better to spec a van with what you have for your needs...mine would clearly have been an onboard genny or an effoy, even an efoy with a Lithium battery..

Jim and others refer to the weight issue. It's not an issue in my van. So maybe if that was your selling point well done.

But my selling point is a wife with good hair and a steak before we go out tonight, ain't going to happen..
I'm going to be going out with a wife with a hat on and a pizza delivery..

I get where you're coming from, in the past we had a 460AH LA leisure battery bank and used around 120-200 AH per day depending on activity, we replaced that with an 860AH lithium bank with the same usage - neither had solar panels, and the inverter/chargers etc were pretty much the same as was our usage of AC and DC power. In both cases we ran the generator for about the same amount of time to keep topped up (these really were silent to anybody more than 20ft from the exhaust outlet).

Obvious really, the fact that it was lithium, or twice the size of battery bank made no difference to how much we had to put back in. So the issue was the method of charging - Shorepower gave 120amp of charging, so very quick on Lithium, but the LA bank would easily charge overnight as well. But being on shorepower meant the batteries were of no benefit in any case.

This was on sailboats, so engine (normally) only run for an hour when going of and coming up to an anchorage or mooring, but gave about 60-75amps per hour. Without solar that left the genset, which were very effective. We looked at Efoy, but it would have been running 24hrs to keep up on passage, and we would have to store the fuel, so not very practical for us, but it's just a generator in a sense. Getting to 100% on engine with LA was not practical - it took hours - lithium worked much better.

So after all that would I buy Lithium over LA - Yes! for all the reasons I understood when we got our first set - Lighter, more usable capacity, less space, quicker charging, better at handling large current draw.

I didnt/dont monitor them any more than the LA bank, once setup properly they just work - until they don't then I'll change them. I just look at the SOC to decide if I have enough to last. We have remote monitoring on the van, which is mainly for the LA start battery, if not for that I would just isolate the lithiums. Could pop another small panel on to keep that charged I guess.

Are they oversold? well no more than most tech in my view, but they do meet the claims of lighter faster charge etc, and do facilitate smaller banks being able to manage inverters.

Carthago's offering (like the N&B specs I looked at) were pretty underwhelming for long term offgrid, and I think they are a little disingenuous.

So an efoy on the van is a great way of keeping the batteries charged if solar and engine are not up to it, and a larger alt/B2B doesnt work for your case. It's nice to have a big inverter and at least the lithiums should be coping with that better than LA.....

 

[Tombola]

Anyone believing anything like that should be taken away by the people in white coat

 

[rod_vw]

Asfaik Niesmann always were wired to allow the user to run the fridge off 12v leisure battery when they wished to. Relying on the end user to do it intelligently. It is a pretty useful feature on a longer ferry as long as the batteries are good enough.

I can't disagree with that BUT it does rely on the end user knowing the implications. Personally if I were wiring such a facility on my own vehicle I would want a warning light activated when in that mode.

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[Richard n Ann]

My first job with it would be finding out what is using over 4 amps continuously with everything switched off

 

[Happy Jack]

unless you use excessive amounts like most Uk households do.

It says it plainly. "Several" days .Most would take that as 4 days as "a few" is three. You met the sales blurb

as above.What was advertised

Anyone believing anything like that should be taken away by the people in white coats


rechargeable head torch .Can recommend them. Doesn't annoy anyone sleeping when you're reading

I can only imagine what the catalyst, sensors & the particulate filter thought of that?

as above.If people had to pay for each Kw or Amp of the incoming power supply they would certainly be more conscious of usage.

Yes ,bring it on.I'm looking at a larger one to run the house as against a fixed system

unfortunately they are.You won't go blind getting lpg on your body but methanol & ethanol, if in contact with skin, are absorbed & the body retains it forever. too much & loss of sight occurs. Apart from the other fact that either are extremely flammable .
I remember a safety officer at a meeting at an oil refinery explaining all the differences
" throw petrol on a coal fire ,it flashes off with a woomp,
throw acetone on it blows the coals out in to the room,
throw methanol on & it blows the room out in to the street"
Other thing is you have to have a halon, powder or CO2,fire extinguisher minimum for methanol but foam is best.

At the end of "taken away by men in white coats", you could have added " especially those campers with loads of experience.

 

[haganap]

Anyone believing anything like that should be taken away by the people in white coats

You do actually realise that I actually am the man in the white coat? Are you suggesting I take myself away?

My first job with it would be finding out what is using over 4 amps continuously with everything switched off

Richard, keep up, only 10 pages to get through..

 

[Wanders from Glos]

Ouch!
Cost/benefit ?

When I needed replacement batteries, lithium was obviously considered because they're the best thing since sliced bread, right?

But, it wasn't a financially realistic option for me, versus the Gel alternative.
Just wasn't necessary, nor needed based on personal usage & ability to recharge.

I'm not sure you can make it add up in terms of savings in EHU, site fees etc. But I don't have a motorhome purely to balance the books or as a way to get cheaper holidays. For me it is about freedom, the open road, going where I feel like at that particular moment and I think a decent lithium set up makes that more attainable. In Europe especially where we usually spend 3 or more months a year, the options for sitting by a beach not on a campsite are much increased.

 

[haganap]

It's OK folks... 8k and I've got candles, a jack Daniels honey, squid games on TV
I will survive....

I've learnt to watch my power consumption...

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[Wanders from Glos]

Well this is clearly an emotive subject - and one that I have enjoyed reading the various vehemently expressed views about!!

For me its simple….with a bank of 330Ah you can consume 1A for 330 hours, or 330A for 1 hour, or any permutation in between, and when its empty you have to put some more in!

You really can make your battery bank last almost as long as you want by making appropriate consumption choices, and finding a way to replenish what you have used.

In answer to the original point, there is no Con as far as I can see. The marketing people promoting lithium have done what they are paid to do. They exaggerate the positive, withhold the negative, and rely on the fact that a large percentage of their target audience will not bother to research or understand what they are buying.

Is that really any different to anything we choose to buy. Electric vehicles are a perfect, and a very apt comparison. The mileage ranges claimed look really appealing, and can be achieved……as long as you travel at optimum speed with minimal braking, on a flat road, without your heating, lights, radio, heated seats, windows, and mirrors, sat nav and every other electrical appliance running and draining your energy reserves.

Buyer beware is the underlying message in my view!

Lithium batteries are a massive technological step forward from lead acid, and nobody can really challenge that. However, the salesmen may be a little bit guilty of selling a false dream, which really doesn't surprise me at all!!

I can see how you earned the cash for that Morello. Your reply was so well written and sums it all up perfectly. Although in an EV I should point out barking adds to recharging sometimes

 

[Googlebot]

All I can say is I love the lithium in mine, it’s twice the power for half the weight.

I also agree however that eventually, you need hookup/efoy/generator unless it’s sunny.

We go home tomorrow so I am spanking the electric hob and toaster tonight!

Happy New Year.

 

[haganap]

At the end of "taken away by men in white coats", you could have added " especially those campers with loads of experience.

Sorry, that's just rude and not in the gist of this thread at all.

You might as well call me stupid..i never spent 8k on this system.

 

[Peavy]

I do believe LiFePo4 is a game changer in a MH. But also, and maybe a bit of a contradiction too, some people want to be in the MH exactly as in home, and I believe that's not the point in this way of traveling?

 

[haganap]

I do believe LiFePo4 is a game changer in a MH. But also, and maybe a bit of a contradiction too, some people want to be in the MH exactly as in home, and I believe that's not the point in this way of traveling?

Why, why is it a game changer? I had a better system before?

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[Peavy]

Why, why is it a game changer? I had a better system before?

Can't comment on your older system as I haven't heard of it before.
In my case upgrading it's been.
I don't have battery anxiety anymore and do sleep better now than when I had the AGM batteries and not knowing in a more precise way how much power did I have left
Plus half the weight, etc.
Maxxfan, also a game changer

 

[pandas]

I think my main anxiety would be running out of toilet cassette capacity rather than electricity if we were off grid for more than 4 days!

 

[haganap]

Can't comment on your older system as I haven't heard of it before.

I rest my case. Therefore you can't answer the question..

Yours works for you.. brill well done

 

[WESTY66]

Why, why is it a game changer? I had a better system before?

Possibly just a “Different system”

 

[ChrisL]

Why, why is it a game changer? I had a better system before?

Can I suggest you had a system that suited you better before, not necessarily a better system. If you genuinely think your old system was better, why not sell off your lithiums and buy some cheap lead acids and an efoy. If you think that will suit you better then that may be the way forward for you?

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