Lithium? The big con?

[Tombola]

You should be a youtuber this thread title is proper click bait..

 

[MisterB]

FYI

Fogstar Lithium 304Ah, Renogy 3000w inverter

2 pizzas just cooked on the table top pizza oven for something to eat before we go to the NYE party at the pub in Newent we're staying at ...

Around 8% or 20Ah Inc inverter draw

Result in my lithium world!

 

[haganap]

FYI

Fogstar Lithium 304Ah, Renogy 3000w inverter

2 pizzas just cooked on the table top pizza oven for something to eat before we go to the NYE party at the pub we're starting at ...

View attachment 995238

View attachment 995239

Around 8% or 25Ah Inc inverter draw

Result in my lithium world!

Show off...

 

[bigtwin]

I should have come to this thread earlier, it would have saved me from quoting so many responses (and I would have realised earlier that it’s a little tongue in cheek ).

I think you're not comparing apples with apples, had you not had an efoy in your previous setup you would now realise just how much better the lithiums are

Absolutely this.

Also as said you are comparing Batteries AND efoy with Batteries alone.

Indeed.

I don't have a weight issue, if this van never had of come with this extravagant extra, I would have been just as happy by buying 2 new Banners and transferring my efoy over as I've done on the last 5 vans,

Your error was underestimating the significance of the benefit that the efoy has given you historically.

this 4 nights is my first proper test to prove it's wrong..
4 nights, just 4 nights of reasonable power use...
Not much to ask is it. Especially when I've done it for many years without..

But your current system is fundamentally different from what you had previously, and I don’t mean that it has LiFePO4, because you no longer have a 24hr recharge capability. Once you lose that you're on a loser if you don’t change your use case.

No worse, no better.

Absolutely better because you would use less Efoy fuel recharging your LiFePO4 batteries.

Your Efoy was the equivalent of breing plugged in to EHU when camped up, little to do with how good or bad lithium batteries are if you have a constant 'external' power source.

This, fundamentally, is the reason that haganap is disappointed while laying the blame at the LiFePO4 batteries.

I had an efoy before and never ended in the position I'm now in.

All hail the Efoy. The big question is why did you not specify the Efoy?

my point is, that in my case an effoy would have been no worse if I would have stayed with a setup trusted by me for many years.

No, the Efoy would have been no worse but it would have been significantly better with lower fuel costs.

I just see it as not the "game changer" that some would have you believe.

It is a game changer. Just compare it with your old system with the Efoy removed (if we are to make like for like comparisons).

What I am saying is that it has not improved my motorhoming experience in the slightest

It has, but you are unwilling to recognise that, in the absence of an Efoy, it has allowed you to stay off-grid for longer. Your previous system, without an Efoy, would not have given you an endurance of 4 days.

Why, why is it a game changer? I had a better system before?

It (LiFePO4) is a game changer for a variety of reasons already detailed by others.

Your previous ‘system’ included a variety of components including a 24 hr recharge capability. Your current system includes a variety of components without a 24 hr recharge capability.
You have chosen to direct your ire to one of the constituent parts of your current system. What I don’t understand is why you chose to blame the lack of 24 hr recharge capability on the LiFePO4 and not on any of the other components (e.g. the MRBF safety device, the different charge profile in your B2B) in your current system.

If you are going to compare the relative effectiveness of two systems it is important to recognise the fundamental differences between the two systems. In your case, this is not that the two systems use different battery technologies (they both store energy), neither is it that they might use different mechanisms (split charge/B2B) to deliver alternator current to the batteries, nor is it that they had different solar capacities. The fundamental difference between the two systems is that one had a diverse (engine and solar independent) 24 hr charging capability and, it transpires, that for your use case/expectation this is critical.

Ian

 

[Wanders from Glos]

Just had a look at the Efoy system, it looks clever but would cost a lot more I think. Plus you have to buy the methanol. Can I ask why you didn't get it in the N&B as I can't imagine price was the inhibiting factor. Or is that the point of this thread, you beloved the lithium set up they offered would make the Efoy redundant due to the marketing headlines or persuasive sales person?

I may have caught up

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[eddie]

So you’ve had to go to a site, pay for, and use electricity, just like a pauper without lithium.

Yes it’s Winter and my RV is very power hungry. I “could” cope, but being retired my job is now to spend as much as I can

It’s only money

That’s not how’s it’s sold via the trade sellers,

Funny never seen an advert saying that

Evidence or imaginary?

or those who have forked out the money to install it. You get the “ never need to plug into EHU again” and “I’ve not need a hook up in years” comments.

Entirely possible, but I’m staying on a site with mates who wanted to stay on a site

It’s only money!

When in reality these that have it installed are getting anxiety about their power that Efoy would solve.

Did you know my business was the first UK business to sell Efoy

Methanol anxiety is a real thing, and you have to notify your insurance company who will have strict rules about how much methanol your allowed to carry

Also to replicate hook up! The methanol would cost more that hook up lol

Edit just looked £100 for two small containers

EFOY Fuel Cell Methanol M5 (Box of 2) [9kg] — Fuel Cell Systems

Cartridge with fuel for EFOY Pro and COMFORT fuel cells.

www.fuelcellsystems.co.uk

 

[eddie]

Is this the right time to mention Portable Power Banks..?

What even smaller unbranded lithium batteries in a pretty box?

 

[haganap]

I should have come to this thread earlier, it would have saved me from quoting so many responses (and I would have realised earlier that it’s a little tongue in cheek ).


Absolutely this.

Indeed.

Your error was underestimating the significance of the benefit that the efoy has given you historically.

But your current system is fundamentally different from what you had previously, and I don’t mean that it has LiFePO4, because you no longer have a 24hr recharge capability. Once you lose that you're on a loser if you don’t change your use case.

Absolutely better because you would use less Efoy fuel recharging your LiFePO4 batteries.

This, fundamentally, is the reason that haganap is disappointed while laying the blame at the LiFePO4 batteries.

All hail the Efoy. The big question is why did you not specify the Efoy?

No, the Efoy would have been no worse but it would have been significantly better with lower fuel costs.

It is a game changer. Just compare it with your old system with the Efoy removed (if we are to make like for like comparisons).

It has, but you are unwilling to recognise that, in the absence of an Efoy, it has allowed you to stay off-grid for longer. Your previous system, without an Efoy, would not have given you an endurance of 4 days.

It (LiFePO4) is a game changer for a variety of reasons already detailed by others.

Your previous ‘system’ included a variety of components including a 24 hr recharge capability. Your current system includes a variety of components without a 24 hr recharge capability.
You have chosen to direct your ire to one of the constituent parts of your current system. What I don’t understand is why you chose to blame the lack of 24 hr recharge capability on the LiFePO4 and not on any of the other components (e.g. the MRBF safety device, the different charge profile in your B2B) in your current system.

If you are going to compare the relative effectiveness of two systems it is important to recognise the fundamental differences between the two systems. In your case, this is not that the two systems use different battery technologies (they both store energy), neither is it that they might use different mechanisms (split charge/B2B) to deliver alternator current to the batteries, nor is it that they had different solar capacities. The fundamental difference between the two systems is that one had a diverse (engine and solar independent) 24 hr charging capability and, it transpires, that for your use case/expectation this is critical.

Ian

Thanks Ian, but I.seriously think you are missing the overall concept.

1) See response to Eddie's post regarding the conversation with VB and their view of previous setup
2) many have responded that they still.use Agm batteries quite happily. As did I for many years.
3) the game changer argument... let's knock that on the head here and now
If it were, I.wouldnt have to look at what I'm using.. or let's put it another way, all my motorhome life with AGMs including the efoy, it would always be considered..
Now, I'm told by the funsters of lithium doom that my problem is that I simply use to much power and need to revert back to how things were before and "think about.my useage" err so what's changed?

Lithium may be better than agm, lighter, discharge better, be more Tesla like, insert benefit here...
But what it ain't, is a game changer...

When I can go away for 4 nights in the depths of winter, cook a steak in an air fryer, dry Nikkis hair and watch telly with the heating and lights on come back and tell me the games changed, it really hasn't has it...

Therefore, my stance is, it's a con as some have eluded to, maybe a con isn't the right word, but a salesman's dream at best...

Now Nikki having done her hair doesn't know what to wear.

 

[fishplug]

Edit just looked £100 for two small containers

Eeeek!

Definitely a petrol genny and a 5 lit can of 4 star for me then!

I'd never heard of an Efoy before this thread and while it sounds great on paper, that's pretty high running costs right there.

My B2B will produce a theoretical 120A charge so my worst case scenario if running low on a snowy day with little to no solar is to simply run the engine for half an hour.

Works for me.

 

[jumar]

What even smaller unbranded lithium batteries in a pretty box?

Yes but it's got flashing lights and places to plug thing in....and a matching handle...

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[enark]

So you’ve had to go to a site, pay for, and use electricity, just like a pauper without lithium.

That’s not how’s it’s sold via the trade sellers, or those who have forked out the money to install it. You get the “ never need to plug into EHU again” and “I’ve not need a hook up in years” comments.

When in reality these that have it installed are getting anxiety about their power that Efoy would solve.

Why efoy at £5k when a good honda will do loads more for £500?

 

[fishplug]

Now Nikki having done her hair doesn't know what to wear.

Ah! Would that still be true if you didn't have lithiums?

 

[haganap]

Yes it’s Winter and my RV is very power hungry. I “could” cope, but being retired my job is now to spend as much as I can

It’s only money



Funny never seen an advert saying that

Evidence or imaginary?


Entirely possible, but I’m staying on a site with mates who wanted to stay on a site

It’s only money!

Did you know my business was the first UK business to sell Efoy

Methanol anxiety is a real thing, and you have to notify your insurance company who will have strict rules about how much methanol your allowed to carry

Also to replicate hook up! The methanol would cost more that hook up lol

Edit just looked £100 for two small containers

EFOY Fuel Cell Methanol M5 (Box of 2) [9kg] — Fuel Cell Systems

Cartridge with fuel for EFOY Pro and COMFORT fuel cells.

www.fuelcellsystems.co.uk

Sorry Eddie just a correction, I was paying 30 quid delivered from Germany. In most cases , I wouldn't get through a container a year as it's only literally like right now I'm struggling.. therefore in my case withy motorhoming doing 90 nights away per year at a mixture of sites and rallies, I used next to nothing in ethanol.

Regarding the insurers., were never interested, carrying one carton in the pouch and another as a spare was perfectly acceptable.
Which in hindsight would have lasted me a couple of years

 

[MisterB]

And now down to 80% - after 240v kettle for coffee/tea and SWMS using her Dyson Airwrap hair dryer to get ready .....

I reckon at least three days without EHU and solar before before I start to get concerned...

Must add though that we are on gas for the fridge and hot water/heating

 

[haganap]

My B2B will produce a theoretical 120A charge so my worst case scenario if running low on a snowy day with little to no solar is to simply run the engine for half an hour.

Works for me.

It doesn't,.see heres the thing, when I mentioned what you done ie run the engine, which I've always done btw, a funster has posted that this is terrible for the DPF.etc.etc... I mean I've only done it for 20 years, so can't comment on if this is correct or not, maybe lucky is middle name?

Next New Year I'm joining the genny brigade (again)

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[Happy Jack]

Or am I expecting to much,

Or am I in the dark? No literally "I'm in the dark"

So I must be doing something wrong.....maybe I'm reading my stats wrong.

Bear in mind, I've been motorhoming for 20 plus years. My set up prior to this van was simply for 10 years, two x 120 amp batteries and an effoy, nothing more nothing less.

My set up on my new van that we've had since March is 3 x 110 victron lithium batteries,3 kw victron inverter charger, 200w of solar no B2B smart alternator. Never ever needed to think about power before, most places we stay a couple of nights, nikki uses hair dryer and we cook with an air fryer without issue.

We came away Friday, stopped the night in Stratford upon Avon, no hook up, arrived fully charged, lived our best lives and had an air fryer meal. I noticed we had hammered the batteries a bit, I noticed I was only putting in about 20-30 amps and the journey from Stratford to Portsmouth wouldn't be enough time arrive fully charged. I turned off the fridge, managed to get the charging rate up to 40 amps and arrived at Portsmouth with 98 percent battery.

We have stayed 3 nights with tonight being our 3rd and already the batteries are saying low charge. This set up comes in at over 8k factory fitted so I'm unsure why I'm in the dark?

My draw is about 3 to 4 amps even with everything seemingly switched off.
Nikki washed and dried her hair yesterday, we watched a bit of avtex tv.

How come I have had the worst performance ever when camping in the depth of winter?
Other than increasing the capacity to more than I have ever ever had, am i sat in the dark?

Seems to me I should have simply ordered two led acid batteries with an efoy?

Complete load of dreamers out there selling these off grid solutions to put you in a place that could have been achieved cheaper in the first place. Might be alright if you are slumming it in Spain l, but clearly we don't, but I would have expected to not have to worry for 4 nights away in winter in the UK...

Lithium "ain't all that" prove me wrong or tell me there's something wrong.
Or am View attachment 994946View attachment 994947i misreading something?

You arrived at Stratford with 98% SOC.
2 nights later ( part way into 3rd night) you are down to low voltage which means you've used most of your available nominal (330 - 2%)323.4 Amps. This suggests you are a heavy user.
OR, as you said you have a draw of 3-4A when all is seemingly switched off; 72-96A per 24hrs would explain low voltage after 2 nights.
In later replies, you say you believe you are not using any more power than you did when on lead batteries.
This suggests that your effoy in your previous set up was "masking" the low 240A (effective 120A) capability of the lead batteries, without an effoy they would have been low voltage much more often than Lithium, if you had a similar parasitic draw.
You really do need to find out what that draw is!
You ask how come you've had the worst performance ever in the depths of winter.
Diddly squat solar input, no ehu, parasitic drain.
If you had lead, you would have been on low voltage much sooner.

 

[haganap]

And now down to 80% - after 240v kettle for coffee/tea and SWMS using her Dyson Airwrap hair dryer to get ready .....

View attachment 995250

I reckon at least three days without EHU and solar before before I start to get concerned...

Must add though that we are on gas for the fridge and hot water/heating

Don't worry. I' know.where you are, I'll. Send Nikki and her hair.dryer and straighteners.around, she will soon sort it.for you, get some reality back in to your bragging..

 

[fishplug]

It doesn't,.see heres the thing, when I mentioned what you done ie run the engine, which I've always done btw, a funster has posted that this is terrible for the DPF.etc.etc... I mean I've only done it for 20 years, so can't comment on if this is correct or not, maybe lucky is middle name?

Next New Year I'm joining the genny brigade (again)

To be fair, there weren't DPFs 20 years ago...

I'd also ask the people who think that idling your engine for 30 mins is going to be catastrophic what they do when driving through major cities at rush hour....

I don't see it as an issue, especially as it's likely going to be followed up soon after with a 3-4h drive on dual carriageway to get home in most instances for me.

The old "Italian Tune Up" is alive and well.

 

[MisterB]

Don't worry. I' know.where you are, I'll. Send Nikki and her hair.dryer and straighteners.around, she will soon sort it.for you, get some reality back in to your bragging..

That's not going to happen on the basis that i'm still waiting for your bank details so I can send my life savings to invest in your get rich quick scheme you mentioned earlier in the thread ....

I was ready to invest but we're off to the pub now with the other Billy No Mates motorhomers parked around us ....

 

[haganap]

You arrived at Stratford with 98% SOC.
2 nights later ( part way into 3rd night) you are down to low voltage which means you've used most of your available nominal (330 - 2%)323.4 Amps. This suggests you are a heavy user.
OR, as you said you have a draw of 3-4A when all is seemingly switched off; 72-96A per 24hrs would explain low voltage after 2 nights.
In later replies, you say you believe you are not using any more power than you did when on lead batteries.
This suggests that your effoy in your previous set up was "masking" the low 240A (effective 120A) capability of the lead batteries, without an effoy they would have been low voltage much more often than Lithium, if you had a similar parasitic draw.
You really do need to find out what that draw is!
You ask how come you've had the worst performance ever in the depths of winter.
Diddly squat solar input, no ehu, parasitic drain.
If you had lead, you would have been on low voltage much sooner.

The draw is life....
Heating, USB chargers two bouts of hair drying, TV watching,. Mifi, so I can keep responding,

My efoy simply came on and off as needed..

But as has been discussed,.this isn't lithium v efoy. I'm well aware they are different systems...

My point is, for 8k has the game been changed?

Nope, I'm still an extremely experienced motorhomer that should have come armed with his Honda eu10i generator...
Because lithium has changed nothing for me...

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[ChrisL]

My point is, for 8k has the game been changed?

For 8K certainly not, but that's down to the original purchaser not doing proper research, perhaps your criticism should be aimed at N&B for adding a large mark up to the actual cost of the kit installed. My humble 230ah fogstar drift has been a game changer for me, but i'm frugal in my electric consumption, I could stay off grid indefinitely through spring, summer and part of the autum.

 

[suavecarve]

I will probably swap these out for a bigger capacity for new year next year. Or buy another efoy..

Just go for the Efoy for your usage.
Increasing your capacity just increases the amount of days you can stay away. Double your capacity double your time off grid.
If you get the Efoy you will have endless amounts of days away and be in exactly (but slightly better) position that you were in before.

 

[ChrisL]

My point is, for 8k has the game been changed?

For 8K certainly not, but that's down to the original purchaser not doing proper research, perhaps your criticism should be aimed at N&B for adding a large mark up to the actual cost of the kit installed. My humble 230ah fogstar drift has been a game changer for me, but i'm frugal in my electric consumption, I could stay off grid indefinitely through spring, summer and part of the autum.

 

[Happy Jack]

The draw is life....
Heating, USB chargers two bouts of hair drying, TV watching,. Mifi, so I can keep responding,

My efoy simply came on and off as needed..

But as has been discussed,.this isn't lithium v efoy. I'm well aware they are different systems...

My point is, for 8k has the game been changed?

Nope, I'm still an extremely experienced motorhomer that should have come armed with his Honda eu10i generator...
Because lithium has changed nothing for me...

You also made the point that you should have ordered 2 led + efoy instead of lithium. Did you have a choice on the new van?
My point is that like for like you would have been on low voltage much sooner with lead batteries.

 

[suavecarve]

Ok, so just to try and add back in a bit of humour in to this post as some are taking things way to seriously.
No Martin funflair I'm not going for 1000 watts of lithium.. clearly that would be a waste and not enough for my power needs i need 2000 at least.

I do laugh at the way people try and justify their expenditure, I do it myself.

This expenditure would have been 8k. Would I have been happy about its result? Nah,. If i can't play my PlayStation cook on my air fryer surf the Internet and do nikkis hair then clearly nothing will ever meet my needs.
There will never be a lithium set up capable for my needs..

The reality as is, and seen by many on here still running their gel batteries, quite lovely, coping well with their 100amp .. good for you.. if its working then don't get drawn in to the hype...

I've heard it and seen it written so often on here. "Since installing lithium I've never had to worry"

Neither did I...

But because of the hype you lot sold me I now do and have to go back to cooking on gas, towel drying nikkis hair and reading a book by candlelight as opposed to watching TV..

Anyhow, in other news, I've just ran the engine for an hour whilst I went out for an 1hrs run..

Nikki can now do her hair and has convinced me to take her out for steak, see even more bloody cost of a failed lithium experiment...
View attachment 995101

You need to charge your phone

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[enark]

The draw is life....
Heating, USB chargers two bouts of hair drying, TV watching,. Mifi, so I can keep responding,

My efoy simply came on and off as needed..

But as has been discussed,.this isn't lithium v efoy. I'm well aware they are different systems...

My point is, for 8k has the game been changed?

Nope, I'm still an extremely experienced motorhomer that should have come armed with his Honda eu10i generator...
Because lithium has changed nothing for me...

I am very surprised that the likes of N&B et al dont offer pushbutton generators fitted as an option.

Had many horseboxes over the years and many of them either came with, or i fitted a generator, then self sufficient as regards electricity as long as petrol is available…..

Last one was diesel heating, water and hob, with electric oven fridge etc and 3.5kw generator.

Never worried about running out of anything..

 

[Peavy]

You need to charge your phone

Efoy phone?

 

[funflair]

I am very surprised that the likes of N&B et al dont offer pushbutton generators fitted as an option.

Had many horseboxes over the years and many of them either came with, or i fitted a generator, then self sufficient as regards electricity as long as petrol is available…..

Last one was diesel heating, water and hob, with electric oven fridge etc and 3.5kw generator.

Never worried about running out of anything..

You can certainly spec a generator on a Morelo, but I wouldn't as we have Lithium

 

[eddie]

You can certainly spec a generator on a Morelo, but I wouldn't as we have Lithium

That’s a game changer

 

[bigtwin]

I may indeed be missing the concept but would guess that it could be:

• Understanding requirements is key to identifying optimal solutions (including no change)
• It’s easy to spend money for little/no benefit

1) See response to Eddie's post regarding the conversation with VB and their view of previous setup

They gave good advice based on your use case.

2) many have responded that they still.use Agm batteries quite happily. As did I for many years.

LiFePO4 isn’t required for everyone, it depends on the use case.

3) the game changer argument... let's knock that on the head here and now
If it were, I.wouldnt have to look at what I'm using.. or let's put it another way, all my motorhome life with AGMs including the efoy, it would always be considered..

I’m struggling with your insistence in comparing apples with pears. LiFePO4, in isolation, can never be the solution to everyone’s needs.

Now, I'm told by the funsters of lithium doom that my problem is that I simply use to much power and need to revert back to how things were before and "think about.my useage" err so what's changed?

As I said before, your use case, was based on a 24hr recharge capability. I’ve never questioned your usage, only that your expectations are based on a 24 hr recharge capability (which you no longer have).

Lithium may be better than agm, lighter, discharge better, be more Tesla like, insert benefit here...
But what it ain't, is a game changer...

When you compare like for like SYSTEMS where the only difference is the battery technology, LiFePO4 is a game changer. If your are comparing different SYSTEMS then the winner will be entirely based on which SYSTEM best matches your requirements.

When I can go away for 4 nights in the depths of winter, cook a steak in an air fryer, dry Nikkis hair and watch telly with the heating and lights on come back and tell me the games changed, it really hasn't has it...

What has changed is your SYSTEM, it has nothing to do with the fact that you have changed the battery technology.

Therefore, my stance is, it's a con as some have eluded to, maybe a con isn't the right word, but a salesman's dream at best...

Salesmen have been known to take advantage of any lack of knowledge in a prospective purchaser; no surprises there.

If you had lead, you would have been on low voltage much sooner.

Indeed but I seem to be missing the concept.

My point is, for 8k has the game been changed?

Spending £8k on a SYSTEM that doesn’t meet your needs can never be considered a game changer.
I used to average 50mpg in my little Fiat 500 but I changed it for a newer, and more expensive, Norton Commando. Sure the Norton is faster but its fuel consumption is much worse and to make matters worse I can’t travel as far before needing to refuel. I used to be able to drive for 500 miles before running out of fuel but now I run out after 120 miles. Is the Norton a game changer? No! But it is FUN.

Because lithium has changed nothing for me...

It has, but you choose not to recognise it. The absence of a 24hr recharge capability has changed the rules but you’re still playing under the old rules and are no longer winning.

BTW Happy New Year.

Ian

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