Lithium? The big con?

[CazPaul]

The OP has posted about using more AH than he has available, that will happen on any system.

The reality, is more AH for the weight, and quicker recharging.

Yes and what he’s also saying is x2 dirt cheap batteries and a cheap second hand efoy was much better for him.

 

[Jim]

Yes and what he’s also saying is x2 dirt cheap batteries and a cheap second hand efoy was much better for him.

So two LiFePO4 batteries and a second hand cheap efoy would be worse or better?

If it's worse, then it would be a con. But it would not be worse, it would be better because the lithiums would deliver more power kg for kg and be much quicker to recharge.

 

[Ditcha]

I am trying to go back to the "old lead acid" setup from the years gone by this lithium shit and victron have me hooked. Waking up all hours monitoring this and that, christ I even have a victron tattoo .
Five used mobiles rigged up to my victron vrm so I never out off view from my data fix
Is their any hope for me

 

[haganap]

As a way to store energy in motohomes, lithium is better in every way than previous technologies. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise. However, what it seems is unrealistic is the general expectations of what this means in practice.

It appears that many people think it is a panacea allowing virtually unlimited use of electrical power. Not so - all it does is allow you to store more power, and use power more quickly. Although lithium can also be charged faster, this means nothing nless you have suitable means to do so.

Yes Fred, thank you... you are sort of justifying what i am saying.
I could, but won't because it would be unfair to the forum, share adverts which pretty much tell people that with lithium, you can live a life without ever worrying about shore power,

Thankfully, I've never been caught up in this and this 4 nights is my first proper test to prove it's wrong..
4 nights, just 4 nights of reasonable power use...
Not much to ask is it. Especially when I've done it for many years without..

My expectations outweighed my results....

People should take more care when buying and spending all this money at what their expectations will and should be.

Fortunately for me, I'm not the one that bought it and paid the 8k plus on the extras list.

 

[Pausim]

The OP’s 3 Li batteries should hold about 4.5kWh of energy which is significantly less than the 7kWh a single litre of lpg holds. I think people are over inclined to think Li is the answer to everything, they are heaps better than lead acid but not a bottomless pit.

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[Lenny HB]

That’s a bit unfair, I agree lithium gets marketed as better than it really is so I agree with @haganap to some extent

I don't agree, they do exactly what it says on the tin, people expect too much from them.


My 2 x 230ah Lithium's I can draw a max of 500 amps out of them without damage.

To do the same with lead acid I would need 2,500 ah of batteries weighing 700kg compared to 50kg for my Lithium. The lead would cost a lot more money and last less than 25% of the time the Lithium's would.

A bit extreme but it shows you what is possible.

 

[haganap]

So two LiFePO4 batteries and a second hand cheap efoy would be worse or better?

If it's worse, then it would be a con. But it would not be worse, it would be better because the lithiums would deliver more power kg for kg and be much quicker to recharge.

No worse, no better.

Nikki would still look beautiful, I would have steak for tea...

As we always had..

 

[Jim]

you can live a life without ever worrying about shore power,

If someone tells you that you can live during winter without shore power on 330AH and no B2B they probably sell magic beans too.

600AH, with a B2B, a big tank of gas, and in winter without any travel to top up, then a few days is all I'm getting.

 

[Jabstatt]

This discussion would be a lot clearer without the incorrect use of amps and amp hours.

Something may draw two amps but that is forty eight amp hours per day.

Mounts up.

Tony

 

[The Wino]

The OP’s 3 Li batteries should hold about 4.5kWh of energy which is significantly less than the 7kWh a single litre of lpg holds. I think people are over inclined to think Li is the answer to everything, they are heaps better than lead acid but not a bottomless pit.

I think it's a matter of how you want whatever you install to behave. Quite often a newcomer will ask for advice on what to install and a lot will jump in with suggestions of what size batteries and solar to install without asking what they intend to use and how many nights off grid they intend to spend. In the end for a lot it's a matter of what kit do you want to use and is the amount installing the system to cope worth it for you no one else can really decide that.

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[haganap]

Where is this dodgy marketing that is better than reality? If it's out there, point it out so we can call them out

Ok here you go, straight out the Niesman Brochure, checkable on their website.

A claim that is nonsense... it should have an asterix and a bold highlight reading...
When we say your way, we mean providing you are not in the UK in winter and you have a wife with hair.

There are loads of false promises out there. Glad I wasn't taken in by it.

.

 

[fred_jb]

If companies are saying "you can live a life without ever worrying about shore power" then this is clearly only true if you live within your means and budget your power use accordingly. There are many vanlife exponents online who do just that, so it is perfectly possible.

 

[Jim]

There should be an Asterix after Several Days*

 

[CazPaul]

So two LiFePO4 batteries and a second hand cheap efoy would be worse or better?

If it's worse, then it would be a con. But it would not be worse, it would be better because the lithiums would deliver more power kg for kg and be much quicker to recharge.

I’ve never said it was a con they are a good weight saving, but like the op said you can only last a few days in winter but not what some marketing tells you he says

His system cost someone 8k when the original buyer could have done it much cheaper and better, x2 batteries and a cheap efoy or genny etc. The original owner could have specced a built in underslung generator for that price.

 

[Carpmart]

Lithium are indisputably better, as in the store more power kg for kg, they charge faster, they last longer, they don’t have all the issues documented for years of lead batteries.

However, as I posted earlier, the mindset shouldn’t shift with a change from lead to Lithium. Power in a Motorhome is a finite resource. Lithium, solar and DC to DC charging has allowed me to significantly change the way we operate in the Motorhome. As we have added more energy consuming items, we have increased the resources needed to deliver this power and we are now at what is an optimal equilibrium for us. In Spring and Autumn in SE Spain and southern France, we no longer need to think about ‘shore power’ to do run the Motorhome to our chosen power consumption. In winter in SE Spain we use a little ‘shore power’ augmentation to keep running.

haganaps original point is WRT is lithium being miss sold. I would counter that the selling is being miss interpreted by some.

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[chaser]

There should be an Asterix after Several Days*

*Several days in summer, with full sun, outside the country of Wales

And it does say moving everyday.

 

[pandas]

Remember the days; New Forest - tent. No electric, no hot water, battery torch and cooking via small gas canister. Great. We now manage with 100 solar, 2 x 11kg gas cylinders heating gas, fridge gas, boiling water and gas hob for cooking. Good book no TV, hairs okay no washing machine we get 5 days off grid winter easy. As said here depends what lifestyle you want to achieve whilst off grid but some debate about what’s been promised.

 

[Two on Tour]

And it does say moving everyday.

It does say "Travel"

 

[haganap]

Duplicate

 

[Kannon Fodda]

I think the OPs expectations, perhaps taken in from the unclarified headline advert statements, for lithium exceed his reality.

For standard motorhomer use, where manufacturers expect a bit of lighting, perhaps recharge a phone, possibly some tv, etc, the lithium would last a long while. But we are trying to do more and more with all these inverters.

The OP now has a 3000W inverter. The 2x 120Ah lead acid stuff would have been overloaded under that, so lithium definitely wins.

But what goes out must be recharged. We don't know how hard that efoy was working in the old setup I.e. how much energy was being put back over 24 hours. There is the misreading of the expectation.

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[Lenny HB]

You are all saying i need a B2B . I simply don't. And here's why..
The vehicle is a culmination of N&B and Victron working together. I don't know it doesn't have one only merely the amps it puts in which i have described isn't great.

Without a B2B there is a high risk of damaging both your alternator and your batteries. Why risk it.

I used the air fryer one night before we moved on to Portsmouth. Heavy battery usage was replaced.. I increased the amps to battery by switching off the fridge taking the input on the journey from 27amps to 47 amps whilst

Those charge rates to me it sounds like you have a 50 amp B2B,. Manufacturers take the cheap way out and run the fridge from the leisure battery when driving so the B2B has to supply the fridge current as well, common on CBE systems.

Those saying that I would be dead on lead aacid , wrong. I've had a set up for over 10 years using nothing but 2 banner 110s a b2b and an Efoy that I bought second hand off here for few hundred quid fitted with various all socket live inverters.

Not a fair comparison a new Efoy is north of £3,000.

My current drain now is 2.1 amps

Still high that's 50ah a day, far to much for a small 330ah Lithium system.

this is a factory fitted system from one of the very best motorhoming manufacturers in the world (allegedly). Your response is pretty much nail on the head...
The advert says "never have to worry about shore power again"

The spec is driven by accountants, made to look good in the spec but returns maximum bucks not necessarily what the customer wants.

I buy vans with the minium spec that I require then do the electrics myself that way I get exactly what I want at the right price.

 

[chaser]

This is in no way being nasty, but we have seen from haganap other threads he just likes using stuff because he has got it so he is probably pushing every last thing he can put of these batteries when there is actually no need to.

 

[fishplug]

The bottom line here is that there's no right and wrong.

The right setup for you will be the one that matches your needs / budget.

As Minxy alluded to, the golden rule is that you need to be able to reliably put back whatever energy you've taken out within the timeframe that you want to remain off grid.

Lithium + B2B + Solar has definitely been the right choice for me and my setup, but then my setup is nothing like the OP's.

I don't feel that I've been 'mis sold' Lithium, but then I've found out about them from various discussions and comparisons and teardowns on YouTube rather than by a salesman in a showroom - so maybe my expectations were more realistic and fact based.

 

[swemmy666]

If only Ryobi made hairdryers

 

[haganap]

And it does say moving everyday.

It does say "Travel"

So if you go back to my first post, my night at Stratford upon Avon cost me 40 percent of my battery power. 2 nights I would have been done practically..

As Carpmart says, the expectations of people need to be controlled. I've heard sellers selling, I've seen posts on here saying they are "grid free" living.... well here's a thing, if they had my wife living with them they would be towing a Tesla Power wall

Even when buying this vehicle, the seller was telling me you can live forever off grid, she had never.had.more than a few nights away from a campsite. But the salesman told her.

I hope this post gets taken for tongue in cheek explanation that's given,

Know your power consumption, know your expectations, learn how to read in the dark and have a wife with short hair who likes a sandwich.

I'm sure if you do all this, you will be fine.

But don't expect lithium to be the be all and end all of everything, it isn't...

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[ChrisL]

If only Ryobi made hairdryers

If not Ryobi, battery hair dryers do exist, I don't imagine they are particularly good but they are available.

https://amzn.eu/d/7psggBT

 

[rod_vw]

haganap I really don't get your argument.

You said that your previous van had 240Ah of lead acid batteries of which you could draw about 120Ah before starting to wreck them. 50% is considered the useful capacity of a lead acid.
You now have 330Ah of Lithium batteries of which you can draw about 265Ah regularly without causing any degradation of the batteries. That's working on 80% useful capacity of the lithium set-up.
So you now have nicely over twice the battery capacity that you had with the lead acid set-up.
Your lithium batteries SHOULD have the capability of being charged at a considerably higher amperage than the lead acid ones so you SHOULD be charging them much quicker. That of course is if your charge set-up is designed to do so.

Thus if the van is correctly configured for lithium it should be considerably more efficient than it seems to be.

Then of course there is the subject of the continuous battery drain that has yet to be identified and the possibility that your fridge is still running on 12v when the engine is not running. In any case the fridge should only be on 12v when the engine is running and should be on the engine battery NOT the leisure side.

At the end of the day you can only use the ampere hours that you put into the batteries minus a minor amount for inefficacy.

By the way to all, please use ampere hours and amps correctly in your discussions. Amps is an instantaneous measurement of current whilst ampere hours is a measurement of usage/capacity over time.

 

[Bill-H]

Your Efoy was the equivalent of breing plugged in to EHU when camped up, little to do with how good or bad lithium batteries are if you have a constant 'external' power source.

 

[haganap]

Without a B2B there is a high risk of damaging both your alternator and your batteries. Why risk it.

As was stated straight after...it does have one, sorry for the confusion.

Those charge rates to me it sounds like you have a 50 amp B2B,. Manufacturers take the cheap way out and run the fridge from the leisure battery when driving so the B2B has to supply the fridge current as well, common on CBE systems.

Not a fair comparison a new Efoy is north of £3,000.

£700 used, never bought a new one ever

Still high that's 50ah a day, far to much for a small 330ah Lithium system.

The spec is driven by accountants, made to look good in the spec but returns maximum bucks not necessarily what the customer wants.

I buy vans with the minium spec that I require then do the electrics myself that way I get exactly what I want at the right price.

My whole point, you won't get conned, but I bet the purchasers of my van could have been.

This is in no way being nasty, but we have seen from haganap other threads he just likes using stuff because he has got it so he is probably pushing every last thing he can put of these batteries when there is actually no need to.

No, not nasty at all.. you're dead right, we do... but I would query the need to bit.. I don't need anything , none of us do, but there's a want.

The bottom line here is that there's no right and wrong.

The right setup for you will be the one that matches your needs / budget.

As Minxy alluded to, the golden rule is that you need to be able to reliably put back whatever energy you've taken out within the timeframe that you want to remain off grid.

Lithium + B2B + Solar has definitely been the right choice for me and my setup, but then my setup is nothing like the OP's.

I don't feel that I've been 'mis sold' Lithium, but then I've found out about them from various discussions and comparisons and teardowns on YouTube rather than by a salesman in a showroom - so maybe my expectations were more realistic and fact based.

As stated, nothing to do with what you put in,in my case. I arrived for 4 nights camping fully charged,
It's about the usage..although of course you are right and will help others.

 

[swemmy666]

If not Ryobi, battery hair dryers do exist, I don't imagine they are particularly good but they are available.

https://amzn.eu/d/7psggBT

Yes, I made that point in another thread a while back. But rather than 3 cheap rechargable hairdryers, one dryer with 3 batteries would be a better option

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