Lithium? The big con?

[Wanders from Glos]

Yes, my large inverter switch is in a place where I cannot see the 'On' light, and I often leave it on overnight and regret it.

Exactly, I turned ours off overnight. I think because the set up is new I am being energy conscious but I’m sure I’ll soon become devil may care and then run out.

Thanks for the rest but I think this is a bit unfair.

I'm asking people to tell me it's not, not justify it as being useless.
I'm comparing it with what I've had before for a number of years without an issue.. My current drain now is 2.1 amps

oldiesontour this is a factory fitted system from one of the very best motorhoming manufacturers in the world (allegedly). Your response is pretty much nail on the head...
The advert says "never have to worry about shore power again"

It would be better to spec a van with what you have for your needs...mine would clearly have been an onboard genny or an effoy, even an efoy with a Lithium battery..

Jim and others refer to the weight issue. It's not an issue in my van. So maybe if that was your selling point well done.

But my selling point is a wife with good hair and a steak before we go out tonight, ain't going to happen..
I'm going to be going out with a wife with a hat on and a pizza delivery..

I think as others have said it sounds like your system was not designed for your energy needs which may be distorting you view of lithium. Whereas ours was designed after discussing what we need it to do. Air fryers and microwaves were specifically discussed. We said no we don’t use them and the fitter suggested we build in some spare capacity in case we change our minds at some point.

 

[haganap]

haganap I really don't get your argument.

You said that your previous van had 240Ah of lead acid batteries of which you could draw about 120Ah before starting to wreck them. 50% is considered the useful capacity of a lead acid.
You now have 330Ah of Lithium batteries of which you can draw about 265Ah regularly without causing any degradation of the batteries. That's working on 80% useful capacity of the lithium set-up.
So you now have nicely over twice the battery capacity that you had with the lead acid set-up.
Your lithium batteries SHOULD have the capability of being charged at a considerably higher amperage than the lead acid ones so you SHOULD be charging them much quicker. That of course is if your charge set-up is designed to do so.

Thus if the van is correctly configured for lithium it should be considerably more efficient than it seems to be.

Then of course there is the subject of the continuous battery drain that has yet to be identified and the possibility that your fridge is still running on 12v when the engine is not running. In any case the fridge should only be on 12v when the engine is running and should be on the engine battery NOT the leisure side.

At the end of the day you can only use the ampere hours that you put into the batteries minus a minor amount for inefficacy.

By the way to all, please use ampere hours and amps correctly in your discussions. Amps is an instantaneous measurement of current whilst ampere hours is a measurement of usage/capacity over time.

Sorry, I think the points being missed. I had an efoy before and never ended in the position I'm now in.
The fridge is not on 12v
The power drain is probably from having the heating on, the phones being charged and numerous other bits and bobs

Your Efoy was the equivalent of breing plugged in to EHU when camped up, little to do with how good or bad lithium batteries are if you have a constant 'external' power source.

Yes Bill, I'm well aware of that.. my point is, that in my case an effoy would have been no worse if I would have stayed with a setup trusted by me for many years.

 

[haganap]

Exactly, I turned ours off overnight. I think because the set up is new I am being energy conscious but I’m sure I’ll soon become devil may care and then run out.

I think as others have said it sounds like your system was not designed for your energy needs which may be distorting you view of lithium. Whereas ours was designed after discussing what we need it to do. Air fryers and microwaves were specifically discussed. We said no we don’t use them and the fitter suggested we build in some spare capacity in case we change our minds at some point.

I don't have a distorted view of lithium..
I just see it as not the "game changer" that some would have you believe.
Or better still, as you state, not in my case..

I will probably swap these out for a bigger capacity for new year next year. Or buy another efoy..

Like you, this was our first real test in winter off grid , clearly it failed.

 

[Wanders from Glos]

I buy vans with the minium spec that I require then do the electrics myself that way I get exactly what I want at the right price.

That’s what I plan to do in future. But with the minimum spec and have you do the electrics so I get exactly what I want

 

[The Wino]

There should be an Asterix after Several Days*

View attachment 995054

I don't think you need the outside the country of Wales bit the several days of sunshine probably covers it!

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[haganap]

Can I also add to people...

There is a very very clear and evident question mark next to The Big Con..

That implies I'm asking a question and putting an argument across that it might be, especially with my wealth of experience as a motorhomer and even one that took kids for many years.

I'm not saying it is, I'm not saying it isn't..

What I am saying is that it has not improved my motorhoming experience in the slightest because of my wife's high maintenance..

Enjoy your new years.

 

[Dolmen]

I get haganap's point. The dream is that with lithium, solar and an inverter you can practically camp for ever in your van, living as if one were at home and never running out of power. Obviously that is not true and as been said many times, you can only take out what you put in and perhaps haganap needs closer to double his current capacity for their particular lifestyle. Regardless, it makes selling the dream inappropriately the con, not the conversion to lithium. The dream weavers need to understand their customers requirements a lot more and explain the limitations of the set up, believe haganap bought is ready installed, it is now up to him to understand it and either accept its limitations or change it which he acknowledges a couple of posts above

 

[cliffanger]

Thanks for the rest but I think this is a bit unfair.

I'm asking people to tell me it's not, not justify it as being useless.
I'm comparing it with what I've had before for a number of years without an issue.. My current drain now is 2.1 amps

oldiesontour this is a factory fitted system from one of the very best motorhoming manufacturers in the world (allegedly). Your response is pretty much nail on the head...
The advert says "never have to worry about shore power again"

It would be better to spec a van with what you have for your needs...mine would clearly have been an onboard genny or an effoy, even an efoy with a Lithium battery..

Jim and others refer to the weight issue. It's not an issue in my van. So maybe if that was your selling point well done.

But my selling point is a wife with good hair and a steak before we go out tonight, ain't going to happen..
I'm going to be going out with a wife with a hat on and a pizza delivery..

You wouldn’t be able to dance after eating a steak Paul, so maybe it’s just as well

However I don’t rate your chances with Nikki and no hairdryer ….

I have no idea about Lithium, so I’ll just wish you both a Happy and Healthy 2025!

 

[MichaelT]

300ah of battery is not a lot, we have 500 and have not hooked up to EHU at all since getting the van except to cool fridge. Our charger is turned off cos it doesn't have a lithium setting but is there in emergency. We don't have an oven just a gas hob, most of our cooking is via a remoska, air fryer (1400w), slow cooker, we have a 900w kettle.

On top we have 400w solar which is fine for summer but this time of year near useless so I've got a portable 200w panel to use plus a 50a B2B plus the original 25a one.

Going to españa in a couple of weeks for 6 weeks and don't expect to hook up.

Think the OP is expecting too much from his set up, another 280ah battery would be better (can mix sizes/makes), I suspect there is a B2B due to the charge he's getting but if definitely not then get one.

The blurb says several days which he would get by watching what he uses, we only put inverter on when needed (it does run fridge) so limit our draw. We watch tv each night and have water on 24*7 and heat as required.

 

[autorouter]

My draw is about 3 to 4 amps even with everything seemingly switched off.

3 x 110 victron lithium batteries,

3A draw over 3 days is 3 x 24 x 3 = 216Ah, 4A draw would be 288Ah. If you have 330Ah of lithium then with a 3A draw that's 35% remaining, with 4A that's 13% remaining. You need to investigate what ts causing your 3A to 4A continuous drain.

Also I don't think much of this N&B - Victron collaboration if they ended up powering the 3-way fridge from the B2B output. A fridge works perfectly well directly from the smart alternator, just like the road lights, wipers and fans do. No need to waste the boosted output of the B2B by sending part of it to the fridge. They know that, but no-one's done anything about it.

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[haganap]

3A draw over 3 days is 3 x 24 x 3 = 216Ah, 4A draw would be 288Ah. If you have 330Ah of lithium then with a 3A draw that's 35% remaining, with 4A that's 13% remaining. You need to investigate what ts causing your 3A to 4A continuous drain.

Also I don't think much of this N&B - Victron collaboration if they ended up powering the 3-way fridge from the B2B output. A fridge works perfectly well directly from the smart alternator, just like the road lights, wipers and fans do. No need to waste the boosted output of the B2B by sending part of it to the fridge. They know that, but no-one's dome anything about it.

Can't comment on the last bit, but the first bit posted was the draw at the time.
Obviously, it would have been increased over various parts of the day.

 

[Lenny HB]

Like you, this was our first real test in winter off grid , clearly it failed.

I think it was more a case of you failing rather than the lithium.

Sorry couldn't resist, for your use your system is clearly under powered, you need to double your Lithium, fit a second B2B and get at least 600 watts of solar possibly more, on the roof.
Them I think you will be happy with it.

 

[CazPaul]

I think it was more a case of you failing rather than the lithium.

Sorry couldn't resist, for your use your system is clearly under powered, you need to double your Lithium, fit a second B2B and get at least 600 watts of solar possibly more, on the roof.
Them I think you will be happy with it.

What will a second B2B do?

 

[cliffanger]

I am trying to go back to the "old lead acid" setup from the years gone by this lithium shit and victron have me hooked. Waking up all hours monitoring this and that, christ I even have a victron tattoo .
Five used mobiles rigged up to my victron vrm so I never out off view from my data fix
Is their any hope for me

Yes …..

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Sorry, I think the points being missed. I had an efoy before and never ended in the position I'm now in.

As has been said, is that not comparing energy generation with energy storage? I guess there must be good reason Elon is not using Efoys and lead acid batteries…

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[eddie]

Thanks for the rest but I think this is a bit unfair.

I'm asking people to tell me it's not, not justify it as being useless.
I'm comparing it with what I've had before for a number of years without an issue.. My current drain now is 2.1 amps

I bet your van is bigger, and you have two TV’s much bigger than you had a number of years ago! And did you have an Air Fryer a number of years ago?if so why didn’t you let us all know how good they are

oldiesontour this is a factory fitted system from one of the very best motorhoming manufacturers in the world (allegedly). Your response is pretty much nail on the head...
The advert says "never have to worry about shore power again"

Why doesn’t it work then?

It would be better to spec a van with what you have for your needs...mine would clearly have been an onboard genny or an effoy, even an efoy with a Lithium battery..

I have loads of solar, a big gas tank, loads of lithium, loads of Victron, a 120amp B2B and a 5Kw factory fitted LPG generator

 

[Lenny HB]

Also I don't think much of this N&B - Victron collaboration if they ended up powering the 3-way fridge from the B2B output.

It's the way most manufacturers do it now, particularly if they have a CBE distribution unit.
Mine was even worse, only a 25 amp B2B, so the batteries were only getting 10 amps.

 

[Lenny HB]

What will a second B2B do?

Double the charge so 2 x 50 amp B2B's will give 100 amps or 85 to the batteries with the fridge running.

 

[CazPaul]

I bet your van is bigger, and you have two TV’s much bigger than you had a number of years ago! And did you have an Air Fryer a number of years ago?if so why didn’t you let us all know how good they are

Why doesn’t it work then?

I have loads of solar, a big gas tank, loads of lithium, loads of Victron, a 120amp B2B and a 5Kw factory fitted LPG generator

Is the generator never ever needed now?

 

[eddie]

It's the way most manufacturers do it now, particularly if they have a CBE distribution unit.
Mine was even worse, only a 25 amp B2B, so the batteries were only getting 10 amps.

It’s a lazy cheap solution

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[funflair]

I get haganap's point. The dream is that with lithium, solar and an inverter you can practically camp for ever in your van, living as if one were at home and never running out of power. Obviously that is not true and as been said many times, you can only take out what you put in and perhaps haganap needs closer to double his current capacity for their particular lifestyle. Regardless, it makes selling the dream inappropriately the con, not the conversion to lithium. The dream weavers need to understand their customers requirements a lot more and explain the limitations of the set up, believe haganap bought is ready installed, it is now up to him to understand it and either accept its limitations or change it which he acknowledges a couple of posts above

I think you are right, ideal winter capacity and summer capacity when solar is working are completely different, we have 640ah and can easily do 6 days in the winter without really worrying too much about running out, but 600ah takes a fair bit of putting back in and a few hours on the road isn’t going to do it, yes we could use gas for the kettle and cook more on gas inside but then I think Paul’s point is we might as well have lead acid and save a fortune, that said our next van will have 1000ah lithium

 

[Lenny HB]

It’s a lazy cheap solution

Yep, typical of manufacturers.

 

[TheMachMan]

Never heard of Efoy before. Are they any good, what’s the positive
S and negatives?

 

[eddie]

Is the generator never ever needed now?

Normally used to charge up my mates motorhomes, the “Luddites” who wont have a proper Lithium set up fitted and are flat after a couple of days

Also in the Alps when Skiing after five or six days in one place, start the genny and a couple of hours puts a significant charge back in the lithiums

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Double the charge so 2 x 50 amp B2B's will give 100 amps or 85 to the batteries with the fridge running.

If the alternator is big enough

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[eddie]

Never heard of Efoy before. Are they any good, what’s the positive
S and negatives?

Very expensive, fuel Methanol very difficult to buy, very very dangerous so insurance notify-able and a dying technology

I used to sell them and stock the fuel

 

[autorouter]

It's the way most manufacturers do it now, particularly if they have a CBE distribution unit.
Mine was even worse, only a 25 amp B2B, so the batteries were only getting 10 amps.

It doesn't happen with a Schaudt/Lippert system, they have a separate feed from the alternator/starter battery to the fridge heater element while driving. The CBE system needs a redesign for a smart alternator/B2B vehicle. The existing design can't be bodged to fit into modern vehicles with smart alternator, B2B and lithium leisure batteries.

 

[Jim]

The dream is that with lithium, solar and an inverter you can practically camp for ever in your van, living as if one were at home and never running out of power.

Correctly set up, that dream is a reality in a UK Summer. I don't hook up between Easter and maybe as far as Bonfire night. In Spain, it's a reality all year for many.

In winter, you need gas and a B2B and you might still struggle to last 4 days if it's really cold and you are not travelling.

 

[Langtoftlad]

This set up comes in at over 8k factory fitted

Ouch!
Cost/benefit ?

When I needed replacement batteries, lithium was obviously considered because they're the best thing since sliced bread, right?

But, it wasn't a financially realistic option for me, versus the Gel alternative.
Just wasn't necessary, nor needed based on personal usage & ability to recharge.

 

[Jabstatt]

So are manufacturers still installing three way fridges?

Terribly inefficient. Compressor should be the way.

Tony

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