Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

gus-lopez said:
Simple as far as I'm concerned. The toad vehicle was never tested on its CoC to be dragged for ooo's miles using towing eyes.
The additional mod to the front cross member negates the coc rendering it illegal.
The modifications breach the 2007 anti tuning directive that forbids modifications after purchase.
The uk is the only place that allows towbar, Bull bars, driving lights, window tinting, any sort of body/suspension mods, etce , etc, to be installed without homologation on the log book
I'd never purchase anything that had been modified to be a toad.

Whilst I have no doubt that you tow yours sensibly the one's passing me in excess ofotheof speed limit on return from Devon last week were not and no chassis to bulkhead attachments are going to stand that for long
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No motor car has the approval you seek when it comes to tow bars. The bars may well be type approved but the car is the car...

It’s not a case of altering the car but adding to it. Much the same as adding a tow bar to any vehicle.

Fitting a device to tow a car is no worse or carry’s any more risk or hazard than fitting a tow bar on the back. Specially if some tugger has a huge overloaded caravan hanging off it.

If you were to view the additional metal and kit fitted to our IQ you would I feel sure be happy. Either way our insurance is utterly and completely happy. But then I expect the above will fail to satisfy.....

Do you have or ever have had an A frame and tow car ??? I ask because it may help qualify you comments if you have...
 
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tonyidle said:
No but l have decent understanding of caster geometry. Yes it is possible to reverse the electronic versions without the brake coming on and no it isn't possible to do a reverse turn without the towed car going onto full opposite lock. There is a demo on You Tube of one of the A frame providers performing such a manoeuvre using a Smart car. The car, as expected, is on opposite lock with the tyres scrubbing sideways. The demonstrator seems to think this is acceptable.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I’m not good with pictures let alone video or trust me I would demonstrate that it is entirely possible to reverse a tow car with a conventional overrun braking system. I will admit if pushing the car uphill it may be necessary to unclip the brakes ...

How many here have witnessed caravanners who simply cannot reverse a caravan into a bay ???? Boat owners are for some reason in my experience even worse...

But in the world I live in if someone is struggling I help them not pick holes or crittisize ...
 
Charlie said:
Unfortunately I’m not good with pictures let alone video or trust me I would demonstrate that it is entirely possible to reverse a tow car with a conventional overrun braking system. I will admit if pushing the car uphill it may be necessary to unclip the brakes ...

How many here have witnessed caravanners who simply cannot reverse a caravan into a bay ???? Boat owners are for some reason in my experience even worse...

But in the world I live in if someone is struggling I help them not pick holes or crittisize ...
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Once again you're turning the discussion away from the factual to the personal. It matters not whether you or I or a passer-by would help someone in difficulty, or whether you can disconnect the brake, or whether you can gently push the car rearward without causing the brakes to lock. Trailers must be capable of being reversed (within the full meaning of that word) without the driver leaving the towing vehicle to disengage the trailer brakes. And l have to assume that 'reverse' includes the very common manoeuvre of reversing into an opening or side road to turn the outfit round whether on a slope or not. It doesn't even matter that we both know that de- coupling and driving the towed car out of the way would take minutes: if it is to be a trailer it must behave as one. I'm not discussing practicalities or that we both know there are simple and convenient means of overcoming toad reversing problems: I'm discussing trailers. And trailers don't have a pair of wheels trying their best to thwart any complex reversing manoeuvre.
 
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tonyidle said:
Once again you're turning the discussion away from the factual to the personal. It matters not whether you or I or a passer-by would help someone in difficulty, or whether you can disconnect the brake, or whether you can gently push the car rearward without causing the brakes to lock. Trailers must be capable of being reversed (within the full meaning of that word) without the driver leaving the towing vehicle to disengage the trailer brakes. And l have to assume that 'reverse' includes the very common manoeuvre of reversing into an opening or side road to turn the outfit round whether on a slope or not. It doesn't even matter that we both know that de- coupling and driving the towed car out of the way would take minutes: if it is to be a trailer it must behave as one. I'm not discussing practicalities or that we both know there are simple and convenient means of overcoming toad reversing problems: I'm discussing trailers. And trailers don't have a pair of wheels trying their best to thwart any complex reversing manoeuvre.
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Trust me I am not being personal. However once again you sir are failing to recognise that it is entirely possible to reverse a tow car without having to get out of the seat. I do admit that uphill physics take over but that’s the only restriction and please bear in mind I have experience where you apparently do not.

I took my outfit onto a trading estate and practiced. Something I would encourage anyone contemplating towing a trailer caravan or toad to do.

You are correct that extra set of Wheels complicates but it simply means dialling in opposite lock as one would do to initiate the turn on say a caravan is not necessary. It’s actually easier to do than to try and explain.

Worth remembering and a huge point is that extra set of wheels adds massive stability while travelling. Let’s be reasonable here it’s in the forward direction any towing rig is going to have issues not reversing. Save for bumping things obviously.

Once again I am not being personal. I am struggling though to realise why non A framers throw up so many negatives when in reality they are doing it from the armchair not the driving seat.
 
@tonyidle ... I would save your 'virtual' breath ... you will NOT convince someone who has an a-frame of anything that they don't want to hear, it doesn't matter what you say. You will either be called a hater, or accused of not knowing what you're talking about ...

Now, to put a different tack on this ... I wonder if A-frame users would be able to meet the requirements to pass the trailer driving test relating to reversing:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...508690/car-and-trailer-reversing-exercise.pdf

Could I suggest that you copy the link above and my text (not a quote) into your response so that Charlie sees it as I'm sure he's still ignoring me ... his choice of course but at least he can then see what I'm saying as it is pertinent.

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Charlie said:
Trust me I am not being personal. However once again you sir are failing to recognise that it is entirely possible to reverse a tow car without having to get out of the seat. I do admit that uphill physics take over but that’s the only restriction and please bear in mind I have experience where you apparently do not.

I took my outfit onto a trading estate and practiced. Something I would encourage anyone contemplating towing a trailer caravan or toad to do.

You are correct that extra set of Wheels complicates but it simply means dialling in opposite lock as one would do to initiate the turn on say a caravan is not necessary. It’s actually easier to do than to try and explain.

Worth remembering and a huge point is that extra set of wheels adds massive stability while travelling. Let’s be reasonable here it’s in the forward direction any towing rig is going to have issues not reversing. Save for bumping things obviously.

Once again I am not being personal. I am struggling though to realise why non A framers throw up so many negatives when in reality they are doing it from the armchair not the driving seat.
Click to expand...
This is an A frame reverse:


And here's a link from @Minxy Girl:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...508690/car-and-trailer-reversing-exercise.pdf
 
@Minxey Girl has a point about the trailer test, but I woul also like to see the video of some of us doing a three point turn in our 7.5 + metre MoHos :D
( any Cornwall location would be good!!!!)
 
tonyidle said:
This is an A frame reverse:


And here's a link from @Minxy Girl:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...508690/car-and-trailer-reversing-exercise.pdf
Click to expand...


The clown driving is obviously dialling in the opposite lock required to initiate turning a caravan. You quite simply do NOT do that as I mentioned above. That video has been flogged to death on here by those who do not know what they are talking about or more importantly have no experience. Very simple.

Anyone who buys a trailer or an A frame need only to spend an hour on a quiet trading estate to learn how to do it correctly.

I mentioned this above .....

May I ask what is your interest here on this thread ?? The only thing you have done is focused on the common misconstrued negatives ?? I mean you say you have no experience and clearly no intention of getting one ???

My interest is to negate all the commonly misconstrued rubbish posted here time and time and time and time again.
 
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Brakers said:
Wow that can’t do the front tyres any good whatsoever!!
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Tony you have to realise that the need to reverse is not that great. Plus it’s not that hard to learn how to do the manoeuvre correctly and safely.

YouTube is rammed with videos of people crashing thier cars after doing ridiculous stunts.... I would hazard a guess you or I don’t drive like that either.

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Charlie said:
The clown driving is obviously dialling in the opposite lock required to initiate turning a caravan. You quite simply do NOT do that as I mentioned above. That video has been flogged to death on here by those who do not know what they are talking about or more importantly have no experience. Very simple.

Anyone who buys a trailer or an A frame need only to spend an hour on a quiet trading estate to learn how to do it correctly.

I mentioned this above .....
Click to expand...

On that I would agree, the technique would be the same as reversing any 4 wheel drawbar trailer towed by many HGV's in the past, not so many these days as most trailers towed behind rigid HGV's are close coupled and the technique is the same as for a caravan or articulated trailer.

Despite having driven articulated vehicles for over 40 years I have never learnt the technique of reversing draw bar trailers, I will take your word that the technique can be mastered in an hour:)

On that video I would doubt that much damage was done to the tyres as the front wheels can be seen rotating even though on the wrong lock, some scrubbing inevitable though.

If you have ever looked at the tyres on a tandem or triple axle trailer when being 'screwed' round in a tight situation I don't think that you would be too worried about the tyre scrub in that video.
 
matamoros said:
On that I would agree, the technique would be the same as reversing any 4 wheel drawbar trailer towed by many HGV's in the past, not so many these days as most trailers towed behind rigid HGV's are close coupled and the technique is the same as for a caravan or articulated trailer.

Despite having driven articulated vehicles for over 40 years I have never learnt the technique of reversing draw bar trailers, I will take your word that the technique can be mastered in an hour:)

On that video I would doubt that much damage was done to the tyres as the front wheels can be seen rotating even though on the wrong lock, some scrubbing inevitable though.

If you have ever looked at the tyres on a tandem or triple axle trailer when being 'screwed' round in a tight situation I don't think that you would be too worried about the tyre scrub in that video.
Click to expand...
But they are not a "4 wheel draw bar" set up as the front wheels are totally independent of the rest of the chassis so I can not see how anything other than traditional trailer reversing would apply, but I am genuinely interested in learning.

Martin
 
funflair said:
But they are not a "4 wheel draw bar" set up as the front wheels are totally independent of the rest of the chassis so I can not see how anything other than traditional trailer reversing would apply, but I am genuinely interested in learning.

Martin
Click to expand...

Martin you don’t apply that opposite lock ...You just turn as if the car was not there. I can understand the confusion especially if used to reversing a trailer in the normal way.

I believe the lorries mentioned above By matamoros are called wagon and drag.
 
funflair said:
But they are not a "4 wheel draw bar" set up as the front wheels are totally independent of the rest of the chassis so I can not see how anything other than traditional trailer reversing would apply, but I am genuinely interested in learning.

Martin
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Agree, a 4-wheel draw bar trailer has the 2 front wheels linked to the bar itself so they turn with it, a 4 wheeled car on an a-frame doesn't do this.
 
Charlie said:
The daft thing is is that a car towed on an A frame is far safer than most other things webtow. Trailers and caravans to name just two....
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Even Dafter, is the fact that the device Known as a "Dolly" can be reversed etc; Has a (US) record of safe use as good as an "A" frame. and IS illegal here, except for "recovery of a (Genuine) disabled vehicle.

Ducto said:
And almost 50% of UK want another vote!
Click to expand...
. How does that fit with a "first past the post" democratic electoral system?

cornish boy said:
So in that case, the vote on 5th of June 1975 still stands with a 67% of the population voting to remain. :)

or perhaps the majority only rule when it suits... :D
Click to expand...

Can we have a re-run `cos I dont like last weeks ( use your favourite whatever) ?.

Charlie said:
On brexit it is ridiculous to think for one second anyone knew the ramifications of leaving the EU. Completely bloody barking mad. NO, I agree, that is probably true, But politicians are good at making decisions which dont make sense, Hence the reason we where IN the EUSSR in the first place!

Should a small majority decide on such a huge thing ?? I think not.
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It`s good enough for a General Election, So why Not?

Speve said:
I currently tow a trailer and others have said before me I don’t hate A frames in fact if there was one developed that could be reversed safely and without having to exit the tow vehicle to do it I would consider one however the law is very ambiguous in all countries and I feel it’s not worth the risk of being stopped as my other half cannot drive and that would mean leaving the toad on the roadside if ordered to unhitch.(y)(y)(y)
Click to expand...

Some thing I "threatened" to do by commencing to remove the stuff in the toad to the R-V In Spain in 2006/7. I was told to "Go but not do it again"!. (Guardia Civil)

gus-lopez said:
Simple as far as I'm concerned. The toad vehicle was never tested on its CoC to be dragged for ooo's miles using towing eyes.
The additional mod to the front cross member negates the coc rendering it illegal.
The modifications breach the 2007 anti tuning directive that forbids modifications after purchase.
The uk is the only place that allows towbar, Bull bars, driving lights, window tinting, any sort of body/suspension mods, etce , etc, to be installed without homologation on the log book
I'd never purchase anything that had been modified to be a toad.


Whilst I have no doubt that you tow yours sensibly the one's passing me in excess ofotheof speed limit on return from Devon last week were not and no chassis to bulkhead attachments are going to stand that for long
Click to expand...


Don`t have an issue with that. the towing structure wont fail IF it is properly constructed and the stress` are distributed. Doubt the structure would fail in the straight towing mode, but excess speeding is always not acceptable.

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I'm travelling on my own, so looked at the toad route as apposed to trailer. but eventually went for a 5th wheeler, with quad slides.
On the road, same width as a caravan, same length as a range rover towing a twin axle caravan.
My main problem is keeping my speed down. I don't like convoyes behind me and tend to end up speeding.
 
Charlie said:
Martin you don’t apply that opposite lock ...You just turn as if the car was not there. I can understand the confusion especially if used to reversing a trailer in the normal way.

I believe the lorries mentioned above By matamoros are called wagon and drag.
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Having never tried it Charlie I will take your word for it and can sort of imagine how that would work with a very shallow turn, does it work the same if you put a lot of lock on or does it then revert to the "normal trailer mode".

Martin
 
funflair said:
But they are not a "4 wheel draw bar" set up as the front wheels are totally independent of the rest of the chassis so I can not see how anything other than traditional trailer reversing would apply, but I am genuinely interested in learning.

Martin
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@Charlie is quite correct, the 4 wheel draw bar set up is generally called a wagon and drag as opposed to a close coupled trailer which is the same as a tandem axle caravan.

The independent front axle is the same on the A frame car as the wagon and drag.

The technique, though I have only rarely tried it myself is different to the conventional trailer reversing technique it is necessary to get the front axle on the trailer turned the correct way for the bend to be negotiated and then pushed round the corner in the conventional manner but not letting the front axle on the trailer turn onto the opposite lock, which can be difficult.

I am sure that there are some ex 'wagon and drag' drivers on here who could explain it better.
 
matamoros said:
The independent front axle is the same on the A frame car as the wagon and drag.
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No it isn't as I explained earlier ... you have no direct control over the front wheels on a car whereas with a 'drag' one you have.

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Don’t know what the fuss is about , the use of a frames in uk is not illegal , if you want one have one, if you don’t want one don’t have one.
Simple choice.
 
Larrynwin said:
Don’t know what the fuss is about , the use of a frames in uk is not illegal , if you want one have one, if you don’t want one don’t have one.
Simple choice.
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... but this all started about using them abroad .... :rolleyes:
 
Larrynwin said:
Charlie’s not going abroad with an a frame, I’m not going abroad with an a frame, no big deal. :D
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Original question for those who've already lost the plot on this thread ...! :D2

Lafant said:
We've towed our Smart car behind our Autotrail for six years without a problem. Yesterday though, a policeman approached us while we were having a break in an Aire near the Cherbourg peninsula and told us it was illegal to use an A frame in France. Normally the fine would be 135 euros but as we were on our way home....

He was very pleasant about it, but we didn't want to press the point!

We are thinking of changing to a low loader anyway because we want to go to Spain. We're even tempted to take a lightweight motorbike or scooter on the back, despite our - how shall I put it - advancing years.

Any thoughts?
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The A Frame vehicle does not react like either wagon and drawbar steer trailer , or tandem trailer . I have licence and have driven all combinations including road trains (Australia) for several decades. The A frame vehicle reactions are also not the same per vehicle , due to differences in castor angle set up , which vary including down to fwd, 4wd and rwd requirements. Camber of road , will even have an effect when trying to do a reverse with A frame. A straight line reverse , if directional inputs are minimised is possible to routinely replicate with a fair degree of success with a good view of toad . The problems come into play with directional changes. The degree of turn required then greatly affects the success rate , success being defined as not ending up pushing the vehicle contrary to wheel direction (scrubbing) . I would not want to be trying the reverse test as in @Minxy Girl post above with A frame JMHO .

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The most commonly required reverse manouevres (at least those most commonly performed by me) are reverse into a road-end to perform what my satnag refers to as a U turn and to reverse my trailer into one side of a pitch on site. Both of those require the trailer to approach a 90 degree angle with the motorhome (within jack-knife constraints). I do not believe either manoeuvre is possible with an A frame. But I'm willing to await Charlies video proving me wrong :). @Charlie l do understand your reversing technique and l agree that it will work provided no sudden directional change is necessary.
 
funflair said:


I can't agree with that bit, the "wagon and Drag" or 4 wheel draw bar trailer has the front axle attached to the draw bar which pivots at a point near the centre of the axle and also on the wagon tow point, an "A frame" is more akin to a standard single axle trailer set up but with the added complication of a set of restricted castoring front wheels.

Martin
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Minxy Girl said:
No it isn't as I explained earlier ... you have no direct control over the front wheels on a car whereas with a 'drag' one you have.
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I will concede the mechanical differences in the two set ups but the reversing procedure will be largely the same.

Both are connected by an A frame which imposes a turning force onto the front of the trailer/toad whether going forward or backwards, on the trailer the whole axle rotates, on the toad the individual wheels turn connected by the steering.

I presume that there is some mechanism on the toad A frame coupling to prevent the wheels going onto full lock but the best way to reverse will surely be to set the front wheels on the toad in the correct alignment for the bend and steer to keep the front wheels in that alignment and to go on to the opposite lock as in the video.
 
matamoros said:
I will concede the mechanical differences in the two set ups but the reversing procedure will be largely the same.

Both are connected by an A frame which imposes a turning force onto the front of the trailer/toad whether going forward or backwards, on the trailer the whole axle rotates, on the toad the individual wheels turn connected by the steering.

I presume that there is some mechanism on the toad A frame coupling to prevent the wheels going onto full lock but the best way to reverse will surely be to set the front wheels on the toad in the correct alignment for the bend and steer to keep the front wheels in that alignment and to go on to the opposite lock as in the video.
Click to expand...
The front wheels on a toad are totally independent and it would make a better trailer if they were not there as in it will still reverse like an ordinary single axle trailer but without the added complication of the wheels putting themselves onto the opposite lock because of the castor effect.

Martin
 
funflair said:
The front wheels on a toad are totally independent
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How can they be totally independent, surely they are connected by the steering mechanism?

It would be interesting to drive a car with independent front wheels.

funflair said:
without the added complication of the wheels putting themselves onto the opposite lock because of the castor effect.
Click to expand...

The whole point of reversing this type of trailer/toad is to avoid that, and it is possible with the correct technique.
 
Sorry.................what was the question :LOL::LOL::LOL:

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