Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

Ye
Cheshirecat57 said:
And while we are talking about doing it again....can we keep doing last night’s lottery until the bastards get the correct numbers pulled out for me
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Yes I agree, you obviously did not know that the outcome would not be favourably in your favour so you deserve another draw. (y)
 
Tre
NickNic said:
There needed to be a referendum in 1991 before the Treaty of Rome was signed.
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Treaty of Rome or the Treaty of Maastricht?

However, makes little difference as the majority verdict was out, so out it is!
Just wish the government would play a bit harder and a bit faster on our behalf... :)
 
As far as I can see the only effect of the Brexit referendum has been to divide the UK population, increase hate crime, and encourage xenophobia. There is a rift in this country that may never heal. I see no positive outcome whether the Brexit negotiations go our way or not. The referendum should never have been held.
 
tonyidle said:
As far as I can see the only effect of the Brexit referendum has been to divide the UK population, increase hate crime, and encourage xenophobia. There is a rift in this country that may never heal. I see no positive outcome whether the Brexit negotiations go our way or not. The referendum should never have been held.
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So what is the downside?
 
Charlie said:
We will see how long the sarcasm and bravado lasts when the chickens come home to roost...

If I’m totally honest I really couldn’t give a Thomas Tit...
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Wow didn't hear anything about getting free chickens in the referendum , which side mentioned that it might have swayed my vote :)
 
Midnightflyer said:
I asked them if I was legal and after producing my European Type Approval Certificate they confirmed that it was perfectly legal to tow what was deemed to be a trailer.
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Is it though ... ? Not going to go into the ins and outs of what constitutes a trailer but I'm not convinced a car with an a-frame suddenly becomes and is recognised legally as a trailer ... it's just what the people who sell them want you to believe it 'becomes' when you stick a towing rig on the front.

The ONLY people who I would believe to confirm for sure that an a-framed car is legal in Spain is to go and ask the higher ranks of their police force as they're the ones who'll fine you and get their response in writing ... the ITV haven't got any interest in the fining of those who use them o the road, so if you show them what appears to be a 'legal in the UK' European Type Approval Certificate why would they worry about it ... so now the question really is ... is the ETAC really what it purports to be ... I'm not convinced it is.

Popcorn and doughnuts at the ready ... :)
 
In a purely technical sense.... what is the difference between a towed, braked trailer / and a towed, braked car.. if they both meet the technicalities of fixing to towing vehicle, braking, lighting etc...

I know nothing about A frames or trailers....

Perhaps the A frame folks will design a lightweight “box” to “hide” the car!?..

Edit: Didn’t see @Minxy Girl ’s post above...

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Spain did not ban A frames, per see, the regulation bans towing a motor vehicle with another, other than for recovery.. so type approval doesn't come into it..

it's like banning taking photographs, you don't need to list all the different makes of cameras to make them all illegal to use.

Article 9.3 of the Reglamento General de Vehículos which prohibits the movement of a motor vehicle towing another, unless there is an immediate risk of damage or injury and it cannot be dragged by another vehicle specifically designed for that purpose, in which case it is allowed only to the nearest place where it will not hinder traffic movement and provided that it is not on a motorway.

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and here

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Fletton said:
In a purely technical sense.... what is the difference between a towed, braked trailer / and a towed, braked car.. if they both meet the technicalities of fixing to towing vehicle, braking, lighting etc...

I know nothing about A frames or trailers....

Perhaps the A frame folks will design a lightweight “box” to “hide” the car!?..

Edit: Didn’t see @Minxy Girl ’s post above...
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In purely technical sense:

A trailer must be capable of being reversed without the driver leaving the towing vehicle to lock-off the brakes.

Steered trailers cannot be towed by vehicles below a certain weight.
 
Fletton said:
In a purely technical sense.... what is the difference between a towed, braked trailer / and a towed, braked car.. if they both meet the technicalities of fixing to towing vehicle, braking, lighting etc...

I know nothing about A frames or trailers....

Perhaps the A frame folks will design a lightweight “box” to “hide” the car!?..

Edit: Didn’t see @Minxy Girl ’s post above...
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A towed car is far more stable without a doubt. As for a comparison with caravans don’t go there.........

I have towed caravans. Heavy and light trailers. Boats on trailers. Jet skis on trailers.... NONE are as inherently stable as when our wee IQ is hooked on the back of the MH..

The haters on here look to the technicalities as all the rest of thier arguments fail miserably.

We are south in Cornwall just now and I saw five or six other A framers on the way down... So there are quite a few...

As for use in the EU.... Well if it’s legal to A frame in the UK which it is then technically the EU countries are supposed to allow us to do so over there just as we allow thier super heavy trucks to travel on our roads despite they are over what is allowed here in the UK by law....

I have been here on this forum for 3 years now and still cannot work out what motivates the A frame haters to keep harping on. Sad lives I think .
 
Charlie said:
A towed car is far more stable without a doubt. As for a comparison with caravans don’t go there.........

I have towed caravans. Heavy and light trailers. Boats on trailers. Jet skis on trailers.... NONE are as inherently stable as when our wee IQ is hooked on the back of the MH..

The haters on here look to the technicalities as all the rest of thier arguments fail miserably.

We are south in Cornwall just now and I saw five or six other A framers on the way down... So there are quite a few...

As for use in the EU.... Well if it’s legal to A frame in the UK which it is then technically the EU countries are supposed to allow us to do so over there just as we allow thier super heavy trucks to travel on our roads despite they are over what is allowed here in the UK by law....

I have been here on this forum for 3 years now and still cannot work out what motivates the A frame haters to keep harping on. Sad lives I think .
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I don't believe there is anyone on the forum who hates A frames. I certainly don't and I'd use one happily if it suited my needs. You seem to regard any discussion about their strict legality or otherwise as a personal attack on your choice to use one. When a question is asked, and a discussion ensues, it has never been about whether an individual should use one or not, but rather about attempting to explain their rather confusing legal status. Your points about UK vs EU motoring law aren't valid. Our Driving Licence allows us to drive in EU countries - that's all. We have to abide by their laws regarding vehicle use. As far as I'm aware the maximum weight limit on our roads was raised some years ago and applies to both UK and EU registered vehicles.
 
As I look for the technical compliance/legality I must be in Charlie's 'haters' camp, but I certainly do NOT hate them ... if he wants to think that, then so be it, I prefer to have an open mind about it and like to know if someone is gonna get fined if they use one abroad which seems to be the main question we get asked on here.

There's no debate as far as I'm concerned about their general safely having used a similar system myself, also towed trailers and caravans, and having 4 wheels on the road is more stable than just 2 but that's NOT the issue.

Its okay for some to say they never had any issues but we know that some others have had issues as they've been reported on this very forum, so there'a always that risk of being stopped/fined and it's up to individuals to decide whether to risk it, simple really ... how lucky do you feel????

I wonder if Charlie still has me on his 'ignore' list ... :rolleyes:

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Another point , and I have used A frames for recovery and also for Toading , They are not maneuverable in the reverse direction, when you do an articulated vehicle test you are required to do a reversing
maneuver , this would not be reliably possible using a car on A frame .
The small numbers , and legal questions , balanced against time and costs probably are reasons they have not been banned in UK .
 
I currently tow a trailer and others have said before me I don’t hate A frames in fact if there was one developed that could be reversed safely and without having to exit the tow vehicle to do it I would consider one however the law is very ambiguous in all countries and I feel it’s not worth the risk of being stopped as my other half cannot drive and that would mean leaving the toad on the roadside if ordered to unhitch.(y)(y)(y)
 
tonyidle said:
I don't believe there is anyone on the forum who hates A frames. I certainly don't and I'd use one happily if it suited my needs. You seem to regard any discussion about their strict legality or otherwise as a personal attack on your choice to use one. When a question is asked, and a discussion ensues, it has never been about whether an individual should use one or not, but rather about attempting to explain their rather confusing legal status. Your points about UK vs EU motoring law aren't valid. Our Driving Licence allows us to drive in EU countries - that's all. We have to abide by their laws regarding vehicle use. As far as I'm aware the maximum weight limit on our roads was raised some years ago and applies to both UK and EU registered vehicles.
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I think most who use A frames don’t reply often because of the haters and he’s there are haters or why would they keep repeatedly attacking on to use your ambiguous points..

There are some like me who have a disabled family member which means having a small car or transport when away makes going away in the first place viable. Without our wee car we may as well stay at home.
How do you think it makes us feel when our plans are shot down all the time.. Spain no go. Germany no go now people who have zero clarity are saying France as well.

Unfortunately this forum has far far to unpleasant people who tear at certain subjects time and time again.
 
For what it's worth, I am toying with the thought of an A Frame, but my thoughts about EU usage don't come into my process
I wont go to France EVER anyway and to be honest there is sooooo much that I haven't seen in Uk that foreign legislation is unlikely to affect me at all
But on record, if anyone wants to use an a frame- crack on :):)

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Charlie said:
I think most who use A frames don’t reply often because of the haters and he’s there are haters or why would they keep repeatedly attacking on to use your ambiguous points..

There are some like me who have a disabled family member which means having a small car or transport when away makes going away in the first place viable. Without our wee car we may as well stay at home.
How do you think it makes us feel when our plans are shot down all the time.. Spain no go. Germany no go now people who have zero clarity are saying France as well.

Unfortunately this forum has far far to unpleasant people who tear at certain subjects time and time again.
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Wow, I’d go and lie down in a dark room if I was you.... so much anger and frustration
 
Think you are being a bit over sensitive about it all no one is attacking you just let it slip off like water off a ducks back and do what you want to do(y)(y)(y)
 
I think most of the A Frame nay sayers on the thread/forum are not motivated by trying to cause distress to individual members but quite the opposite , they are using their assessment of the possible illegality or otherwise of usage in various countries and therefore probable punitive outcome of usage in those countries to warn and therefore prevent the resultant distress to the user, also to minimize the financial loss of setting up a system that will not provide the end
result the user envisages. In the final analysis its upto the individual to make the decision and live with the consequences .
 
tonyidle said:
In purely technical sense:

A trailer must be capable of being reversed without the driver leaving the towing vehicle to lock-off the brakes.

Steered trailers cannot be towed by vehicles below a certain weight.
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I can reverse my one ?? Can you ? Have you tried ???
 
Charlie said:
have been here on this forum for 3 years now and still cannot work out what motivates the A frame haters to keep harping on. Sad lives I think .
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Simple as far as I'm concerned. The toad vehicle was never tested on its CoC to be dragged for ooo's miles using towing eyes.
The additional mod to the front cross member negates the coc rendering it illegal.
The modifications breach the 2007 anti tuning directive that forbids modifications after purchase.
The uk is the only place that allows towbar, Bull bars, driving lights, window tinting, any sort of body/suspension mods, etce , etc, to be installed without homologation on the log book
I'd never purchase anything that had been modified to be a toad.

Whilst I have no doubt that you tow yours sensibly the one's passing me in excess ofotheof speed limit on return from Devon last week were not and no chassis to bulkhead attachments are going to stand that for long
 
Charlie said:
I can reverse my one ?? Can you ? Have you tried ???
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No but l have decent understanding of caster geometry. Yes it is possible to reverse the electronic versions without the brake coming on and no it isn't possible to do a reverse turn without the towed car going onto full opposite lock. There is a demo on You Tube of one of the A frame providers performing such a manoeuvre using a Smart car. The car, as expected, is on opposite lock with the tyres scrubbing sideways. The demonstrator seems to think this is acceptable.
 
gus-lopez said:
Simple as far as I'm concerned. The toad vehicle was never tested on its CoC to be dragged for ooo's miles using towing eyes.
The additional mod to the front cross member negates the coc rendering it illegal.
The modifications breach the 2007 anti tuning directive that forbids modifications after purchase.
The uk is the only place that allows towbar, Bull bars, driving lights, window tinting, any sort of body/suspension mods, etce , etc, to be installed without homologation on the log book
I'd never purchase anything that had been modified to be a toad.

Whilst I have no doubt that you tow yours sensibly the one's passing me in excess ofotheof speed limit on return from Devon last week were not and no chassis to bulkhead attachments are going to stand that for long
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Sorry, but “negating the coc” ( no such offence BTW) is not illegal on a used vehicle (ie one registered this morning or earlier)
The legislation only covers a newly registered vehice in this country
Dont know and dont care about overseas

I do not however condone driving too fast, which is a real offence

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