Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

[filopastry]

@moulin 87 yes old chap, we reside in the sunny Charente Maritme 17260 Virollet. This is us, or more precisely ... this is 'er indoors ... I just tag along. www.la-brise.fr

 

[Heyupluv]

I understand they are illegal in France. (who knows) But I've seen quite a few French registered vans towing with an A Frame.

Jim I think one of the main reasons why they are illegal in France is INSURANCE ..you can not get insurance...yes you may have seen them on the back of a french motorhome and yes they may have even purchased it in France .. BUT...it is most likely NOT insured...???...don't forget towing a trailer in france over a certain weight needs its own log book (carte grise a certificat d'Immatriculation ) with a seperate / number plate and with its own insuance.. different to the towing vehicle...we did some checking about 9 months ago that is what we found...not the same as the UK

 

[Midnightflyer]

Here we go again it's part of the unharmonisation of Europe. I have towed in France and Spain with a A Frame over the past 3 yrs without any problems and last year visited the ITV at Santander, the equivalent to our VOSA. I asked them if I was legal and after producing my European Type Approval Certificate they confirmed that it was perfectly legal to tow what was deemed to be a trailer. After all the Spanish Police use "Spec Frames" to tow vehicles away when illegally parked. It seems strange that the French Police can say what they did when, now having a American 5th wheel articulated caravan I can legally tow another trailer behind the 5th wheel when this is not legal in the UK unless you are a "Showman". In your position what would I do carry on with a EU Type approved A Frame they are easy-to-use compared with a trailer.

 

[LordElpus]

It seems to me that many Police Officers on the continent either do not know or are out of date with their own legislation, just like here in the UK. What is the difference between towing a large Caravan, i.e. a braked trailer with 4 wheels on the ground, and a car on a rigid A frame that also applies the brakes on the vehicle? Both are braked trailers. The problem stems from the fact that many 'offences' in Europe are subject to 'On the Sport' fines, and we are often only in the country fro a short period, so it becomes a 'faff' to challenge the fines and easier to pay up! Perhaps it would be helpful to have a copy of the appropriate legislation, in French, English, Spanish etc., which proves you are legal which you can shove under the nose of the local gendarmarie as you give the two fingered salute and drive off! Now wouldn't that be poetic justice! (I'll get my coat now! )

 

[Nicepix]

Taken from Le Monde de Camping Car and translated using Google:

http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/a...ee-par-le-camping-car-il-faut-y-renoncer.html

In recent months, on the forums, equipment manufacturers and private individuals asserted with conviction the legality or illegality of the famous frame allowing to tow his car behind his camper as a simple trailer. A written question to Parliament, published in the Official Journal on 27 May 2014, makes this system definitely non-regulatory.


The question written in the National Assembly came from the socialist deputy of Hautes-Pyrénées, Mr. Jean Glavany. He mentioned a possible tolerance of French legislation on the issue of being able to tow a small car with a motorhome. However, the response of the Ministry of Ecology, Sustainable Development and Energy is unambiguous. It recalls that European Directive 2007/46 / EC defines three international categories of vehicles:
- category M: motor vehicles for the transport of persons;
- category N: motor vehicles for the transport of goods;
- category O: trailers.
And confirms that in France, the configuration of the frame to be towed is not permitted by the Highway Code, apart from the particular case of troubleshooting. Article R.311-1 of the Highway Code stipulating that the constitution of a road vehicle is expressly defined as the coupling of a motor vehicle (category M or N) and a trailer (category O) , a trailer being characterized in particular by a braking device compatible with the category of motor vehicle intended for towing.

A term to ambiguity
Where things could lead to conflicting interpretations, and the Department recognizes this implicitly, is that the coupling devices used to tow a motor vehicle can be approved in accordance with Directive 94/20 / EC. The technical unit therefore remains in conformity with Community regulations but not its installation on the towed vehicle, which must be modified to accommodate the frame to be towed ... If these legal considerations appear to be absent for many users, the statement, according to the Ministry that, in the event of an accident, declaring that the towed vehicle is a car (without a driver) could lead the insurer to review the conditions for taking the damage caused, should carry more. An effect that will undoubtedly put an end to the controversy and at the same time to the "career" of the frame to tow in France.

Upshot appears to be that the French have interpreted a European Directive to the effect that a car cannot be a trailer. So no A Frames allowed in France at this time.

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[LordElpus]

So much for EU ‘harmonisation’ then.! Amazing, innit, that the EU have gone all out to introduce ‘type approval’ for all sorts of vehicles, trailers etc., throughout the 28 countries, yet an ‘A’ frame that has type approval in the UK is not ‘approved’ in France or Spain. Makes a mockery of the whole system.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

UK is as bad
Our interpretation of Whole Vehicle Type Approval is a dogs dinner as well
My particular experience is in trucks, but the regs are rediculous and exclude USED vehicles( ie the SECOND a vehicle us registered, it is USED. So put what you want on it)

 

[gus-lopez]

So much for EU ‘harmonisation’ then.! Amazing, innit, that the EU have gone all out to introduce ‘type approval’ for all sorts of vehicles, trailers etc., throughout the 28 countries, yet an ‘A’ frame that has type approval in the UK is not ‘approved’ in France or Spain. Makes a mockery of the whole system.

But you do not have any'type approval' for your toad as it has been modified from the original CoC and therefore contravenes the2007 anti-tuning Eu directive and legally shouldn't be on the road.
Additionally there is no "European type approval" for any type of A frame.

Spectacle lifts are completely different type of equipment along a with proper A frame that attaches to the steering underneath and both of which are legally only meant for removing a vehicle to a place of safety.

 

[Gaston aires]

We have a toad but so far only used in the UK. We use a 125cc scooter in Europe for a variety of reasons. Cheaper crossing, easier to manipulate, better weather generally, and the legality side.Tow bars are so useful. Toads can be cumbersome at times useful in others.
Phil

 

[Charlie123]

Jim I think one of the main reasons why they are illegal in France is INSURANCE ..you can not get insurance...yes you may have seen them on the back of a french motorhome and yes they may have even purchased it in France .. BUT...it is most likely NOT insured...???...don't forget towing a trailer in france over a certain weight needs its own log book (carte grise a certificat d'Immatriculation ) with a seperate / number plate and with its own insuance.. different to the towing vehicle...we did some checking about 9 months ago that is what we found...not the same as the UK

We have FULL insurance for the van and the tow car. I have it all confirmed in writing in a clear and concise way written to me by my insurers . It states that ALL risks are covered comprehensively... that is for the MH towing the car and the car IF something untoward should happen.

The law is completely unclear or it seems that way ..

The daft thing is is that a car towed on an A frame is far safer than most other things webtow. Trailers and caravans to name just two....

I view it a bit like when we see cars with the number plates spacing altered or fancy fonts instead of the proper ones. You have to be pretty darn unlucky....

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[Ducto]

Probably why 52% voted Leave.

And almost 50% of UK want another vote!

 

[Deleted member 29692]

And almost 50% of UK want another vote!

Would that be the the 50% who couldn't be arsed to vote last time?

My reply to them is tough, you had your chance.

 

[TCG]

And almost 50% of UK want another vote!

Well you can’t..... the 48% who want another vote, obviously do NOT want a democratic society.
Sorry to say but the majority rules

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Well you can’t..... the 48% who want another vote, obviously do NOT want a democratic society.
Sorry to say but the majority rules

The liberal left have never been interested in a democratic society. It goes against everything they believe in.

This hysterical demanding of another vote and another and another until they get the result they want is just one example of that.

 

[Ducto]

The liberal left have never been interested in a democratic society. It goes against everything they believe in.

This hysterical demanding of another vote and another and another until they get the result they want is just one example of that.

It was a huge shock to the Conservatives when the result said OUT - me included, not necessarily a Conservative though

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[Deleted member 29692]

It was a huge shock to the Conservatives when the result said OUT - me included, not necessarily a Conservative though

I'm not hearing the sort of demented whining from them that we're forced to endure from the likes of the Clegg, Cable and those cretins.

 

[tacr2man]

Lord Digby Jones made quite a relevant comment about the damage done by the non acceptance , and constant working against acceptance of a democratic vote in regards to our negotiations, Which will impact on those who voted both ways !! He did not mention the probable effect this will have on the use of A frames here or in the EU unfortunately

 

[Cheshirecat57]

But you do not have any'type approval' for your toad as it has been modified from the original CoC and therefore contravenes the2007 anti-tuning Eu directive and legally shouldn't be on the road.
Additionally there is no "European type approval" for any type of A frame.

Spectacle lifts are completely different type of equipment along a with proper A frame that attaches to the steering underneath and both of which are legally only meant for removing a vehicle to a place of safety.

But thats (my) the point
Legally you dont need to worry abouttype approval for the toad, because you modified it after registration so is not covered bu the legislation
BTW im not agreeing or disagreeing with it, just saying thats how it is

 

[Cheshirecat57]

And while we are talking about doing it again....can we keep doing last night’s lottery until the bastards get the correct numbers pulled out for me

 

[tacr2man]

And while we are talking about doing it again....can we keep doing last night’s lottery until the bastards get the correct numbers pulled out for me

While we are on the Subject , a friend of mine in Colon says most of his mates think we should decide the match they just lost on penalties.

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[tonyidle]

While we are on the Subject , a friend of mine in Colon says most of his mates think we should decide the match they just lost on penalties.

That place name has just too many humerous possibilities that I have no intention of addressing ............ .

 

[cornish boy]

Well you can’t..... the 48% who want another vote, obviously do NOT want a democratic society.
Sorry to say but the majority rules

So in that case, the vote on 5th of June 1975 still stands with a 67% of the population voting to remain.

or perhaps the majority only rule when it suits...

 

[tacr2man]

So in that case, the vote on 5th of June 1975 still stands with a 67% of the population voting to remain.

or perhaps the majority only rule when it suits...

How far do you want to go back on votes that still stand ? Tell you what if its the same interval you can have another vote in 41 years . That seems a very fair compromise.

 

[Charlie123]

On brexit it is ridiculous to think for one second anyone knew the ramifications of leaving the EU. Completely bloody barking mad.

Should a small majority decide on such a huge thing ?? I think not.

 

[Nicepix]

On brexit it is ridiculous to think for one second anyone knew the ramifications of leaving the EU. Completely bloody barking mad.

Should a small majority decide on such a huge thing ?? I think not.

On the other hand; everyone knew the ramifications or remaining in the EU. And that is not what the class of 1975 voted for

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[Charlie123]

On the other hand; everyone knew the ramifications or remaining in the EU. And that is not what the class of 1975 voted for

To intense a subject that we could rabbit about forever and not agree.....

My point is why should I suffer because someone else and only a few voted out.

 

[Nicepix]

To intense a subject that we could rabbit about forever and not agree.....

My point is why should I suffer because someone else and only a few voted out.

It is called Democracy. If you know of a better system whereby nobody loses and everybody gets what they want please let us know.

 

[Charlie123]

It is called Democracy. If you know of a better system whereby nobody loses and everybody gets what they want please let us know.

We will see how long the sarcasm and bravado lasts when the chickens come home to roost...

If I’m totally honest I really couldn’t give a Thomas Tit...

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Yes lets see

 

[Deleted member 29692]

So in that case, the vote on 5th of June 1975 still stands with a 67% of the population voting to remain.

or perhaps the majority only rule when it suits...

There was no mention of anything beyond a free trade agreement in that referendum. If it had stayed as nothing more than a free trade agreement there would have been no problem.

There needed to be a referendum in 1991 before the Treaty of Rome was signed.

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