Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

[Minxy]

How can they be totally independent, surely they are connected by the steering mechanism?

It would be interesting to drive a car with independent front wheels.

The wheels are of course connected to the car's steering BUT they are in no way connected to the a-frame therefore the MH has no control over them at all.

 

[Louis]

Sorry.................what was the question

Can you dump grey waste while using an ‘A’ frame ?

 

[tacr2man]

Can you dump grey waste while using an ‘A’ frame ?

Only if you are wearing a gas mask

 

[Louis]

Only if you are wearing a gas mask

Oh dear did not expect an answer

 

[2657]

The wheels are of course connected to the car's steering BUT they are in no way connected to the a-frame therefore the MH has no control over them at all.

If the front wheels are maneuvered into the correct alignment at the start then with the correct technique they will stay in that alignment.

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[Gary217]

Probably why 52% voted Leave.

What? 52% of the UK population tow cars on an A frame? I didn't realise it was so high.

To me the best answer is to swap the motorhome for a caravan; I cannot quite understand why people tow cars behind a motorhome as you lose the manoeuvrability of the m'home, the m'home costs a lot more than a caravan but towing a car you've lost the advantage of easy parking/manoeuvring, and actually a caravan has more usable space for its footprint than a m'home.
I'm not a tugger in any shape or form but if I wanted the advantage of having a car to tootle around in the places I stopped I'd go the caravan route...just a thought.

 

[tacr2man]

If the front wheels are maneuvered into the correct alignment at the start then with the correct technique they will stay in that alignment.

No they wont , thats the whole point , they are too sensitive to outside factors . You might manage it , but its not a given and any change in direction will increase the possibility of going to full lock , and resultant scrub and excessive load factors .

 

[Gary217]

I don't think a car and caravan is the same as a motorhome with a car towed behind.

If you have left your caravan at a site (obviously not on a French aire) and pootled off in your car, how do you make a coffee or sandwich as you view the beautiful scenery at the special place you have just discovered?

What happens if you get "caught short" away from any public facilities?

What happens if you return to find that, in your neglectful absence, your caravan has become attached to another?

Freedom, flexibility and convenience all lead to a motorhome... not a caravan.

Just saying

JJ

...good points which is why we love the m'home and do take it out and about locally when we're pitched up but if the OP is towing a car then that's what they will use locally, so just as with a caravan set-up no loo, no way of making lunch or cuppas. So parking up a m'home and using a car is pretty much the same as parking up a caravan and using a car, so the "freedom, flexibility and convenience" are all compromised.

 

[2657]

No they wont , thats the whole point , they are too sensitive to outside factors . You might manage it , but its not a given and any change in direction will increase the possibility of going to full lock , and resultant scrub and excessive load factors .

I wouldn't like to try it with a toad set up but I can see no reason why it should not be possible, I also find it very difficult to reverse a small camping trailer behind the motorhome but it is possible.

 

[Charlie123]

I can't agree with that bit, the "wagon and Drag" or 4 wheel draw bar trailer has the front axle attached to the draw bar which pivots at a point near the centre of the axle and also on the wagon tow point, an "A frame" is more akin to a standard single axle trailer set up but with the added complication of a set of restricted castoring front wheels.

Martin

Martin whatever the configuration the A framed car behaves in the same manner as a wagon and drag.... The technicalities can cloud the issue the results are the same.

Either way it is entirely possible and not difficult to reverse and I think that is the point here.

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[bigtwin]

....... but I woul also like to see the video of some of us doing a three point turn in our 7.5 + metre MoHos

It’s obviously a long time since you took your test as candidates are not asked to do a 3 point turn. They are asked to change direction using the forward and reverse gears.

Ian

 

[PeteH]

The most commonly required reverse manouevres (at least those most commonly performed by me) are reverse into a road-end to perform what my satnag refers to as a U turn and to reverse my trailer into one side of a pitch on site. Both of those require the trailer to approach a 90 degree angle with the motorhome (within jack-knife constraints). I do not believe either manoeuvre is possible with an A frame. But I'm willing to await Charlies video proving me wrong . @Charlie l do understand your reversing technique and l agree that it will work provided no sudden directional change is necessary.

At which point I usually uncouple, I learned long ago that the time taken is far reduced if I independently turn both vehicle and then recouple.

What? 52% of the UK population tow cars on an A frame? I didn't realise it was so high.

To me the best answer is to swap the motorhome for a caravan; I cannot quite understand why people tow cars behind a motorhome as you lose the manoeuvrability of the m'home, the m'home costs a lot more than a caravan but towing a car you've lost the advantage of easy parking/manoeuvring, and actually a caravan has more usable space for its footprint than a m'home.
I'm not a tugger in any shape or form but if I wanted the advantage of having a car to tootle around in the places I stopped I'd go the caravan route...just a thought.

Answer to the above question can be found here:- Quote from a previous Post:- "Having recently returned to the use of a Motor-home, after a 3 year break during which we had a Caravan, that which we discarded largely because neither myself nor my (disabled) wife could sit comfortably in the Seating, whereas now we have a "Captains" chair each with a leg-rest (side bench). I tow an old Punto on "A" frame. AND IT WORKS FOR US!."

I wouldn't like to try it with a toad set up but I can see no reason why it should not be possible, I also find it very difficult to reverse a small camping trailer behind the motorhome but it is possible.

.

Not the first to find that out either!. I have less issues putting 45ft on the dock blind-sided. Than reversing my 3x5ft garden trailer up my drive!.

Circa 1976(ish). The Chief Mate, on the Ro-Ro I was on. Loaded "Monty`s Caravan", i.e a 1940`s Comer Field Workshop, complete with generator set, towing a Field Comm`s Unit. on the Vehicle deck in the belief that it could be driven off via the bow doors at Jedah. 2 mistakes, One the bow doors had been decommissioned, Two All the Ro-R0 Vessel`s discharged stern to quay!. With nothing available to tow it off reverse. I got the "job" of getting it as far as I could so it could be disconnected or turned. 3hrs of shunting, resulted in me being able to get the truck in a position where with some extra "manpower" it could be reconnected and discharged!. NO power steering, NO air Brakes, just bloody sweating in 40`C of Middle Eastern "Air", all the time breathing the fumes from a 1940`s N/a diesel.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

It’s obviously a long time since you took your test as candidates are not asked to do a 3 point turn. They are asked to change direction using the forward and reverse gears.

Ian

But it only FEELS like last month- lol

 

[Larrynwin]

The most commonly required reverse manouevres (at least those most commonly performed by me) are reverse into a road-end to perform what my satnag refers to as a U turn and to reverse my trailer into one side of a pitch on site. Both of those require the trailer to approach a 90 degree angle with the motorhome (within jack-knife constraints). I do not believe either manoeuvre is possible with an A frame. But I'm willing to await Charlies video proving me wrong . @Charlie l do understand your reversing technique and l agree that it will work provided no sudden directional change is necessary.

Nice manoeuvres, but never found either necessary after several years using a frame. A shuffle back on the odd occasion as I have an auto brake system and on site stop adjacent to pitch, unhitch and position, plus careful route planning , no problem.

 

[Larrynwin]

It’s obviously a long time since you took your test as candidates are not asked to do a 3 point turn. They are asked to change direction using the forward and reverse gears.

Ian

Even back in the 60s when I was a driving instructor we referred to a “turn in the road” rather than a three point turn which was a slang term used.

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[tacr2man]

It’s obviously a long time since you took your test as candidates are not asked to do a 3 point turn. They are asked to change direction using the forward and reverse gears.

Ian

Bit like this bloke then

 

[tonyidle]

Nice manoeuvres, but never found either necessary after several years using a frame. A shuffle back on the odd occasion as I have an auto brake system and on site stop adjacent to pitch, unhitch and position, plus careful route planning , no problem.

Non of this stuff is a problem to any of us. We find the most comfortable and safe method then do it that way. There are many good reasons for using an A frame not least of which is the speed with which it can be uncoupled and moved out of the way in any situation that requires it. That certainly isn't easy to do with any trailer. This discussion started, as usual, with a question about legality. Hence my mentioning a couple of areas where to describe an A frame as a trailer was stretching a point. At no time have l tried, or would l try, to discourage their use. If circumstances were right l would use one myself.

 

[Charlie123]

In the interests of total honesty....

Our toad is a Toyota IQ...It has the tiniest turning circle you can imagine. It turns in its own 10ft something length.

On a conventional car when you turn the wheel the hub with its brakes and so on turn on a ball joint.

On the IQ when you turn the wheel the entire suspension strut turns. There is no bottom ball joint the whole lot turns.

Now I’m wondering if this is some kind of advantage given how difficult this to me easy manoeuvre is ?? We are delving into mechanical physics here of course.

It’s because of the above mechanical set up the IQ can perform this tiny turning circle. It makes an Aygo or a Smart car feel like a barge.

 

[tacr2man]

In the interests of total honesty....

Our toad is a Toyota IQ...It has the tiniest turning circle you can imagine. It turns in its own 10ft something length.

On a conventional car when you turn the wheel the hub with its brakes and so on turn on a ball joint.

On the IQ when you turn the wheel the entire suspension strut turns. There is no bottom ball joint the whole lot turns.

Now I’m wondering if this is some kind of advantage given how difficult this to me easy manoeuvre is ?? We are delving into mechanical physics here of course.

It’s because of the above mechanical set up the IQ can perform this tiny turning circle. It makes an Aygo or a Smart car feel like a barge.

Dont think it hasnt got one ? whats all this lot for ?
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[tonyidle]

In the interests of total honesty....

Our toad is a Toyota IQ...It has the tiniest turning circle you can imagine. It turns in its own 10ft something length.

On a conventional car when you turn the wheel the hub with its brakes and so on turn on a ball joint.

On the IQ when you turn the wheel the entire suspension strut turns. There is no bottom ball joint the whole lot turns.

Now I’m wondering if this is some kind of advantage given how difficult this to me easy manoeuvre is ?? We are delving into mechanical physics here of course.

It’s because of the above mechanical set up the IQ can perform this tiny turning circle. It makes an Aygo or a Smart car feel like a barge.

A very large number of cars with McPherson strut suspenson use that system. The turning circle is more influenced by the presence or lack of front driveshafts.

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[Larrynwin]

In the interests of total honesty....

Our toad is a Toyota IQ...It has the tiniest turning circle you can imagine. It turns in its own 10ft something length.

On a conventional car when you turn the wheel the hub with its brakes and so on turn on a ball joint.

On the IQ when you turn the wheel the entire suspension strut turns. There is no bottom ball joint the whole lot turns.

Now I’m wondering if this is some kind of advantage given how difficult this to me easy manoeuvre is ?? We are delving into mechanical physics here of course.

It’s because of the above mechanical set up the IQ can perform this tiny turning circle. It makes an Aygo or a Smart car feel like a barge.

Oh an IQ, I have a high IQ whatever that is

 

[Mikey RV]

In the interests of total honesty....

Our toad is a Toyota IQ...It has the tiniest turning circle you can imagine. It turns in its own 10ft something length.

On a conventional car when you turn the wheel the hub with its brakes and so on turn on a ball joint.

On the IQ when you turn the wheel the entire suspension strut turns. There is no bottom ball joint the whole lot turns.

Now I’m wondering if this is some kind of advantage given how difficult this to me easy manoeuvre is ?? We are delving into mechanical physics here of course.

It’s because of the above mechanical set up the IQ can perform this tiny turning circle. It makes an Aygo or a Smart car feel like a barge.

Unhitch and turn car around, is quicker than trying to find somewhere to turn 43ft around.

 

[Charlie123]

Dont think it hasnt got one ? whats all this lot for ?
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Yes but that’s at the top.... I thought it was clear what I meant ? Maybe not..... The strut of course has to turn at some point eh ?

 

[Charlie123]

Unhitch and turn car around, is quicker than trying to find somewhere to turn 43ft around.
View attachment 240205

Some rig that is my friend.... Lovely .

 

[Charlie123]

Oh an IQ, I have a high IQ whatever that is

I don’t... Dyslexic as hell or what my teacher used to say.... Thick.........

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[tacr2man]

Yes but that’s at the top.... I thought it was clear what I meant ? Maybe not..... The strut of course has to turn at some point eh ?

No there is a bearing in the top housing , and a ball joint at the bottom of the Mcpherson strut , otherwise the mcpherson strut would splay out , the ball joint is in the end of the TCA .
Here is what you are on about
There are variations but they are basically all on same principle .

 

[PeteH]

The primary reason, reversing a frame will "crab" is the fact that the front set up is geared to forward motion in a stable straight line assisted by the castor angle. When reversing under power (normally) it is controlled by the pilot (driver) without whom it will try and turn until it jambs against the stops (or vehicle frame). BTW. for reversing short distances in a straight line, a strong bungee between steering wheel and seat back can help. But to be fair the best way is to unhitch and turn, then re-hitch. I just wish "dollys" where legal. They can be reversed, in the same way Non "Close coupled" trailers can. Its a skill which once learned comes naturally.

 

[tonyidle]

If the market for A frames was larger it would be easily possible to use the toads steering to follow the motorhome. A substantial number of small cars use electronic power steering (EPAS). This can accept an external input that could be used to steer the toad either by sensing A frame stress or directly from the towing vehicle. I'd quite like to see that happen.

 

[jockaneezer]

You should fit the A frame mount to the rear of the toad, that way it will reverse beautifully around corners and undo the mileage on the speedo too.

 

[PeteH]

You should fit the A frame mount to the rear of the toad, that way it will reverse beautifully around corners and undo the mileage on the speedo too.

I like that, But, think supermarket trolleys? pull one backwards and the front wheels tend to go in all directions.

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