Disaster on way to Portugal!!

[dpsuk999]

It is very very rare you'll ever get a recovery guy to hang around for 30 minutes after he's attended and fitted a wheel they're usually backed up with jobs which is why it takes a couple of hours to get to you in the first place.

So you're right to now be paranoid, I find once you've lost a wheel on a vehicle you tend to start checking them religiously.
I certainly do.

Pain in the ass on this van as I've to unbolt wheel trims to do it too

Pain in the ass too as I’ll have to take off the outer alloy wheel to even get to check the inner wheel bolts

 

[dpsuk999]

The scarier thing for me is the photo of the motorhome on the back of that tiny recovery truck with that overhang knowing there's a car in the garage.

The steering on that truck must be ridiculously light with that weight hanging off the rear .

I thought my 3900kg hymer looked crazy on the back of a truck that size . Think I'd have a panic attack if they tried putting the Flair on one.

Madness

I took the Smart out of the garage and the missus following in it

 

[dpsuk999]

The op stopped because a Spanish car flagged him down. How many of us would have been concerned re a Spanish car waiving you down. Ie do you stop or not?

It was actually a Portuguese car as we had just crossed the border and when I pulled onto the N road and stopped in the middle of the road a 2nd Portuguese car stopped and asked if we were ok as he owns a motorhome so was concerned, very nice of them

 

[Puddleduck]

I think we are all agreed you have had a very lucky escape which was caused by a third party.

It's easy to be wise and offer advice after the event - could have, should have, might have - but that is all in hindsight. Those offering advice were not there at the time and are unaware of any skill set (in my case lack of) or disability.

I hope your stay at the garage is without further incident and you can continue a trip memorable for all the right reasons from here on.

 

[jongood]

Pain in the ass too as I’ll have to take off the outer alloy wheel to even get to check the inner wheel bolts

Thinking about it some more, it has to be a 3 stage process;
1, torque both layers as you initially refit the wheels, drive through a heat cycle.
2, remove outer wheel and retorque inner and outer
3, drive through another heat cycle and retorque outer.

Its not ideal because to do a periodic check requires you to remove the outers but its probably as safe as you re going to get.

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[dpsuk999]

Thinking about it some more, it has to be a 3 stage process;
1, torque both layers as you initially refit the wheels, drive through a heat cycle.
2, remove outer wheel and retorque inner and outer
3, drive through another heat cycle and retorque outer.

Its not ideal because to do a periodic check requires you to remove the outers but its probably as safe as you re going to get.

Yes spot on PITA but I will certainly be doing that from now on

 

[fishplug]

I've never owned a motorhome and didn't know about the re-torque procedure.

However it makes complete sense when you stop and think about it.

Good information.

However, the real takeaway here for me is that if you spot something that doesn't look right on someone's vehicle then trying to let them know even if you might not have a common language could actually be a life saver.

Quite the adventure dpsuk999 - glad it's ended up as a 'dinner party story' and nothing more and hope the claim against the breakdown company goes as smoothly as those things can.

I'm sure having taken lots of pictures of the various stages of the process will stand very firmly in your favour for the claim.

Perhaps that's another takeaway piece of learning for me.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Wanted large torque wrench upto 350 nm
We had a rear puncture last year in Spain and the guy who came out never had a torque wrench he said not needed but I kept checking the nuts on my way home,
I do carry a 250nm for the fronts but need to sorce a 350nm for the rear that will do both jobs.

 

[Northernraider]

I've never owned a motorhome and didn't know about the re-torque procedure.

However it makes complete sense when you stop and think about it.

Good information.

However, the real takeaway here for me is that if you spot something that doesn't look right on someone's vehicle then trying to let them know even if you might not have a common language could actually be a life saver.

Quite the adventure dpsuk999 - glad it's ended up as a 'dinner party story' and nothing more and hope the claim against the breakdown company goes as smoothly as those things can.

I'm sure having taken lots of pictures of the various stages of the process will stand very firmly in your favour for the claim.

Perhaps that's another takeaway piece of learning for me.

You don't need to own a motorhome , you should retighten wheels nuts on any vehicle from a motorbike to an articulated truck if the wheels have been removed and refitted.

It's good practice to get in to the habit of doing it.


I'd go as far as to say even check the nuts on a bicycle after removing wheels ....but nah its fun watching them fall off

 

[chaser]

Thinking about it some more, it has to be a 3 stage process;
1, torque both layers as you initially refit the wheels, drive through a heat cycle.
2, remove outer wheel and retorque inner and outer
3, drive through another heat cycle and retorque outer.

Its not ideal because to do a periodic check requires you to remove the outers but its probably as safe as you re going to get.

Surely you can't do this as every time you take it off you are starting the procedure all over again.

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[Northernraider]

I took the Smart out of the garage and the missus following in it

Yes I think that was the best move.. anyway your experience could have been far far worse so a lucky escape for sure , I don't envy you in fact I'm going to just double check my own wheel nuts again today.

I hate to imagine the recovery procedure in Morocco. I could end up on the back of a camel

 

[Nanniemate]

There will be a lot of Funsters checking wheels and wheel nuts today
dpsuk999

Pleased your OK you'll dine out on this one for a while.

Your experience will surely help others

 

[Peavy]

This was the van he turned up in
View attachment 997252

That's a very old Transit (plate number from 1992) to turn up with as a starter

 

[CazPaul]

I hope our twin rear wheel March 2005 Iveco has not got this set up.

 

[jongood]

Surely you can't do this as every time you take it off you are starting the procedure all over again.

I cant see any other way.
You're effectively having to retorque the outers twice

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[funflair]

Thinking about it some more, it has to be a 3 stage process;
1, torque both layers as you initially refit the wheels, drive through a heat cycle.
2, remove outer wheel and retorque inner and outer
3, drive through another heat cycle and retorque outer.

Its not ideal because to do a periodic check requires you to remove the outers but its probably as safe as you re going to get.

I did that the first time I had the wheels off but couldn't get any more on them so since then I will be honest I have been a bit lazy.

 

[funflair]

I hope our twin rear wheel March 2005 Iveco has not got this set up.

You mean you don't know which I guess is part of the issue, if the garage tells someone to check the bolts are tight they are usually just going to check the 6 they can see as how many people know exactly how their vehicle is designed.

No you will be standard Paul

And just for the record I think that yes the system is strange to say the least but it seems to work, I am happy to believe that the tyre/wheel changer didn't do the nuts up tight and without access to the Morelo or Meier manual he wouldn't know the torque setting as he won't have seen this setup on a standard IVECO daily van.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

I don’t think you’re comments are useful.
No way can All these bolts can become loose at the same time.
The bolts have to be torqued to about 190n.
The checking that you refer to is suggested after 100 miles.
(Hands up !!!how many people do that?)

You can see on each of the nuts in my hands the difference in the height of the nuts to the thread, showing they have worked their way to the top of the thread and then snapped

They don’t all slacken together, but once one loses its clamping force, the others become overloaded and effectively elastic, causing them to shear. This also results in the nuts backing off, loosing clamping force, the wheels begin to chatter on the studs and damage the hub spigot.

we always check wheel nuts after 50 miles (not really keen on the 30 minute thing) and regularly will find 1 or 2 that will tighten up a little bit.
Looking at the pictures by the OP the snapped studs look like the ones that hold both wheels on i cant work out what people are on about when they say the inner bolts and yes they would all work loose once 1 has become the wheel can to wobble and that will make all the other come lose its has always been a problem with in the haulage indistry and none of the boffins know why i happens and despite lots of clever people trying to desin=gn some to prevent it happening they cant so i dont hold out much hope of the OP getting any back from a claim situation if they havnt carried out a retorque.

I used to work in haulage, I was working in the workshop from about 14yo and loose wheel nuts after they had been disturbed was a known issue then. Usually it was on the left side, and was IIRC more common with traditional cone nuts. The nuts on the left were conventionally left hand thread too to prevent them rotating off. It was common practice for the workshop to chalk “CHECK NUTS” on the tyre sidewalls to inform the driver that they needed to check them. Also in those days torque wrenches for wheel nuts were unheard of, a wheel key and 4’ long bar was used for tightening (usually with a scaffold tube extension when removing).
When European lorries started appearing in the UK market, they had moved to flat nuts and washers, were all right hand thread and wheels had straight bore stud holes (rather than tapered) and also were located on the hub spigots rather than reliant on the studs for location. None of these changes eliminated the problem of fixings slackening off, but as long as the correct nuts were used on clean wheels, with unpainted spigots and mounting faces, and were correctly torqued up, the incidence reduced.

Because (and because I guess this is a decent and through garage) the wheel hub assembly, see picture below) has damage and when you place the inner wheel onto it there is movement. The pic below with red circles shows how the metal of the hub has ground away so slight movement when the inner wheel is positioned on it

<image removed>

That damage to the hub spigot would be due to the wheel fretting, and as there is reliance on the interface of the wheel and spigot, both should be replaced.

Glad you are ok and are getting sorted. Everything else you can put down to experience.

Maybe consider a set of wheel nut retainers in plastic or the metal clip versions as this would cause me concern going forward.

The repairing garage should be able to source for you and the plastic ones are available in several colours.
View attachment 997255

View attachment 997254

Please note, these devices only indicate that the nuts have rotated, and do not prevent them rotating off.

A lucky escape me thinks pleased you are all OK and only a few bits of mechanics to fix.

You might want to consider carrying one of these Tam Northernraider bought one last year, I tried it, a wheel bolt done up to over 200nm only needed finger tip pressure to shift it.

They haven't 'arf gone up in price since last year Tam paid about 45 quid.

View attachment 997292

Torque multipliers are not a great idea where fastening torque needs to be measured as there is mechanical friction within the multiplier which affects the accuracy.

My inner wheel nuts torque is 350Nm and the outer alloy wheel bolts torque is 160Nm

That system is really uncommonly, and may be unique to your motorhome converter. From an engineering perspective, it is not a sensible design. Importantly though dpsuk999, you were fortunate that the outcome wasn’t much more serious and expensive.

 

[Northernraider]

I hope our twin rear wheel March 2005 Iveco has not got this set up.

Yours should have the same as mine, 6 x flat faced 27mm nuts hold both rear wheels on . The wheel also rests on the hub face for added support. I much prefer this method to the method used on the op's vehicle. It seems the manufacturer puts vanity over safety.


There's a lot of weight on the rear depending on the spacer and alloy wheel bolts .

 

[Paulypaul]

Glad you are ok, a scary tale indeed.
It is unfair for anyone to say that you should check them yourself and check with a torque wrench etc. What about those of us who rely on the professionals because we wouldn’t know where to start and wouldn’t have the tools. I suppose the only way is to go into another garage after the wheel change - but then you are reliant on those people.

As I said previously. Without getting stroppy with yhe fitter, it's always worth asking what his method is going to be. He might want to hurry the job and take short cuts or he might not have thought about it in a rushed breakdown situation, or, he may be fully aware and tell you how he's going to do the job properly? Either way, if you give the impression that you have some knowledge you could prevent human error or outright negligence

A very fortunate ending for you...phew. ( But I'm now left with a head scratch of whether I check the wheel nuts at 30km, 40miles, 100 miles, half an hour of driving or half an hour of standing stilll...all have been cited....Continental Tyres say 50km...that'll do)

I may have quoted 30km for retorque which was a typo. I meant 30 miles which is what I've always understood to be a standard in the 39 years ive been involved with trucks.

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[Lenny HB]

Torque multipliers are not a great idea where fastening torque needs to be measured as there is mechanical friction within the multiplier which affects the accuracy.

It is to enable you to get the wheel off at the side of the road, you would still use a torque wrench for final tightening.
If the OP had had one he wouldn't have called the breakdown and wouldn't had the problem.

 

[Puddleduck]

If the OP had had one he wouldn't have called the breakdown and wouldn't had the problem.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing......

 

[Al n Val]

On a side re torque

i’ve a Rapido tag on an Alko heavy chassis with 16” Fiat alloys, does anyone have a torque setting please as i’ve recently had all 6 wheels removed and refitted

 

[Lenny HB]

On a side re torque

i’ve a Rapido tag on an Alko heavy chassis with 16” Fiat alloys, does anyone have a torque setting please as i’ve recently had all 6 wheels removed and refitted

Normally 160NM for Alloys on a Fiat.

 

[Northernraider]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing......

It's also good for preventing others having the same issues.

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[Puddleduck]

It's also good for preventing others having the same issues.

Very true.

 

[Carpmart]

I’ve just looked over this thread again. You’re a lucky boy! Clearly a fitter issue, either too much or not enough torque from the roadside fitter…

If there is the option on Morellos I’d specify steelies all round, no spacers or weird Morello adaptations (IMHO opinion they’ve come up with a REALLY poor design!) to a tried and trusted Iveco chassis/axle..

I carry a 500Nm rattle gun with 27mm impact socket in the Motorhome, but TBH, I’d probably be better off with a 3/4 bar and extension…

 

[March Hare]

Hi dpsuk999 I'm really sorry to hear of your near-miss, but I hope you're back on the road soon on your holiday.

You have our sympathy as we had a similar problem, albeit on our SUV, whilst driving up through Germany. We'd had two front tyres replaced before the trip, and we hadn't rechecked the wheel nuts....

We pulled over when the onboard system alerted us there was a problem with nearside front wheel. Blimey, like you I'm sure, we couldn't believe our eyes! There were just two wheel nuts left. We had the same "what if" thoughts as you!

We were recovered in a shiny new Mercedes recovery truck to a nearby Mercedes dealership, who had stayed open especially for us, and they'd kept an engineer back - they gave us food and drink and before long we were back on the road - they refused any payment and just thanked us for driving a Mercedes!

Wishing you a good holiday going forward!

 

[DerryW]

There will be a lot of Funsters checking wheels and wheel nuts today
dpsuk999

Pleased your OK you'll dine out on this one for a while.

Your experience will surely help others

And that’s the most important thing, and what sets the MHF forum out and way way above many of the other fonts of all knowledge you come across on the World Wide Web thingy.

Finely from me. I don’t think the OP or for that matter any of us will ever get to know what actually caused this near catastrophe, but by sharing his experience on here there will no doubt be hundreds of us checking our wheel nuts/bolts in the next few weeks, and it that saves just one person/family from near disaster it’ll be thanks to the OP for sharing the experience and for the many contributions from those with a wealth of mechanical and life experiences.

 

[B+W vanman]

Hi dpsuk999 I'm really sorry to hear of your near-miss, but I hope you're back on the road soon on your holiday.

You have our sympathy as we had a similar problem, albeit on our SUV, whilst driving up through Germany. We'd had two rear tyres replaced before the trip, and we hadn't rechecked the wheel nuts....

We pulled over when the onboard system alerted us there was a problem with nearside front wheel. Blimey, like you I'm sure, we couldn't believe our eyes! There were just two wheel nuts left. We had the same "what if" thoughts as you!

We were recovered in a shiny new Mercedes recovery truck to a nearby Mercedes dealership, who had stayed open especially for us, and they'd kept an engineer back - they gave us food and drink and before long we were back on the road - they refused any payment and just thanked us for driving a Mercedes!

Wishing you a good holiday going forward!

Can I ask how replacing rear tyres causes problems with the near side front?
Incidentally, I have been impressed by Mercedes Roadside Assistance, though not regarding a Motorhome!

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