Current U.K. law on up plating has been changed WITHOUT consultation

[WESTY66]

I just got an email TODAY from out and about live featuring SV Tech saying that dvla are no longer altering the gross weight of an uprated moho!
How would that work with the cops abroad?

 

[KASPAR]

I have just received my V5c from the DVLA this morning, my Motor Caravan has been updated to 4000kg, and taxation class PHGV. According to the DVLA website, road tax is now £165 for the year. I pay monthly, so assume that the DVLA will amend my DD? I thought this would be useful information for Funsters going through the process, especially with the uncertainty this topic has caused.

View attachment 969472

You will shortly receive a letter explaining how to re-tax the vehicle at a Post Office, and to then apply for any adjustment in the amount twixt what you have paid by DD and the new rate. A ball ache, but that's DVLA for you.

 

[Guzziando]

I just got an email TODAY from out and about live featuring SV Tech saying that dvla are no longer altering the gross weight of an uprated moho!
How would that work with the cops abroad?
View attachment 969484

Strange, as I sent my paperwork off to the DVLA on 30 September 2024. Maybe I was just lucky?

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I have just received my V5c from the DVLA this morning, my Motor Caravan has been updated to 4000kg, and taxation class PHGV. According to the DVLA website, road tax is now £165 for the year. I pay monthly, so assume that the DVLA will amend my DD? I thought this would be useful information for Funsters going through the process, especially with the uncertainty this topic has caused.

View attachment 969472

You will receive a separate letter. Basically you need to first set up a new DD and then cancel the old one. That is what my letter said

 

[The Artilleryman]

Strange, as I sent my paperwork off to the DVLA on 30 September 2024. Maybe I was just lucky?

I think it's only vehicles with N1 are having problems now, as M1 has no weight restriction.

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[Orion]

Strange, as I sent my paperwork off to the DVLA on 30 September 2024. Maybe I was just lucky?

What did your original V5C have at J: Vehicle Category? Was it M1,N1 or nothing entered?

Have the DVLA changed the entry at F.1: Max. Permissible Mass to the same as your new uprated Revenue Weight?

 

[Guzziando]

What did your original V5C have at J: Vehicle Category? Was it M1,N1 or nothing entered?

Have the DVLA changed the entry at F.1: Max. Permissible Mass to the same as your new uprated Revenue Weight?

Vehicle category was left blank on new and old V5C. It is listed as a Motor Caravan on D5 (Body type). F1 has remained the same at 3500, and Mass in Service remains at 3069, which I did not realise was over 3050, and affects speed limits, even before I up-plated?!

I notice from another post in MHF that: "I managed to get straight through to an engineer at SV Tech this time. He confirmed, as others have said (although contradicted by some), that DVLA do not change the Maximum Permissible Mass and it is the Revenue Weight which is used for enforcement purposes. https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/revenue-weight.154170/post-2370982

 

[Lenny HB]

. F1 has remained the same at 3500, surely this should have also been increased to the same as the Revenue weight, 4000Kg?

Yep, they nearly always make that mistake a van I uprated a few years ago it took me 4 months to get them to correct it.

 

[Guzziando]

Yep, they nearly always make that mistake a van I uprated a few years ago it took me 4 months to get them to correct it.

Sorry, I amended my post, as having read other posts, this seemed quite common, and that the Revenue weight appears to be the one that is used for enforcement purposes. I am reluctant to send my V5 back, as given all the concerns raised about not increasing the Revenue Weight on the V5C, they may change that back down instead of increasing the Max Permissible Mass

 

[Orion]

Vehicle category was left blank on new and old V5C. It is listed as a Motor Caravan on D5 (Body type). F1 has remained the same at 3500, and Mass in Service remains at 3069, which I did not realise was over 3050, and affects speed limits, even before I up-plated?!

I notice from another post in MHF that: "I managed to get straight through to an engineer at SV Tech this time. He confirmed, as others have said (although contradicted by some), that DVLA do not change the Maximum Permissible Mass and it is the Revenue Weight which is used for enforcement purposes. https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/revenue-weight.154170/post-2370982

Thanks for that. It’s a shame that you would have to argue the point over 19kg if there was a dispute about the speed limit - albeit unlikely to ever happen! Although I presume deductions for the driver, etc. that were used to calculate the Mass in Service would put you safely under the theoretical 3.05t Unladen Weight threshold if push came to shove.

Other than that it looks as if they have accepted you are M1 (SP due the Motor Caravan designation) and didn’t get hit with their recently discovered N1 shenanigans.

I still find it strange that DVLA don’t routinely change the Max Permissible Max figure to match the Revenue Weight when up plating. To simply say that the ‘Authorities’ will have access to their database etc. doesn’t really answer the question about getting stopped and weighed when abroad. If they can do it when requested - I included such a request in a covering letter when up plating and it came back correctly amended - why not do it by default?

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[The Wino]

Thanks for that. It’s a shame that you would have to argue the point over 19kg if there was a dispute about the speed limit - albeit unlikely to ever happen! Although I presume deductions for the driver, etc. that were used to calculate the Mass in Service would put you safely under the theoretical 3.05t Unladen Weight threshold if push came to shove.

Other than that it looks as if they have accepted you are M1 (SP due the Motor Caravan designation) and didn’t get hit with their recently discovered N1 shenanigans.

I still find it strange that DVLA don’t routinely change the Max Permissible Max figure to match the Revenue Weight when up plating. To simply say that the ‘Authorities’ will have access to their database etc. doesn’t really answer the question about getting stopped and weighed when abroad. If they can do it when requested - I included such a request in a covering letter when up plating and it came back correctly amended - why not do it by default?

The whole thing is of course bonkers! Why not just have a max all up weight speed limit accordingly and ved rates the same. You're doing 60 on a single carriageway road is it legal well just weigh you.

 

[gus-lopez]

Maybe it's like Spain with different vehicle tax dependant on your residential location?

Yes they vary from council to council.I pay 4 x what someone in Estepona pays for the same MPV? nonsensical

I have just received my V5c from the DVLA this morning, my Motor Caravan has been updated to 4000kg, and taxation class PHGV. According to the DVLA website, road tax is now £165 for the year. I pay monthly, so assume that the DVLA will amend my DD? I thought this would be useful information for Funsters going through the process, especially with the uncertainty this topic has caused.

View attachment 969472

It is the MPM that counts abroad

. F1 has remained the same at 3500,

So not a lot of use if in europe

and that the Revenue weight appears to be the one that is used for enforcement purposes.

only in the UK

 

[nicholsong]

I did the necessary legal research on the basis for 'Revenue Weight'

The basic answer is that it is based on the weight in para F.1

As many have pointed out DVLA alter 'Revenue Weight' - is it para [Y] ? - and not F.1

For most countries the Certificate of Registration does not include that [Y] para, so the authorities would be looking for a figure in para F.1

DVLA need to take note of their international obligations in reference to a Registration Certificate and train their staff accordingly.

However the Minister of Transport - they swap seat regularly - seems to take little interest in his Agency DVLA.

 

[Guzziando]

I did the necessary legal research on the basis for 'Revenue Weight'

The basic answer is that it is based on the weight in para F.1

As many have pointed out DVLA alter 'Revenue Weight' - is it para [Y] ? - and not F.1

For most countries the Certificate of Registration does not include that [Y] para, so the authorities would be looking for a figure in para F.1

DVLA need to take note of their international obligations in reference to a Registration Certificate and train their staff accordingly.

However the Minister of Transport - they swap seat regularly - seems to take little interest in his Agency DVLA.

OK, so I really do need to update this before I plan my next trip abroad. This will not be until 2025, so I have time. I will wait until I have my new tax rate sorted before I request the change.

 

[Orion]

The whole thing is of course bonkers! Why not just have a max all up weight speed limit accordingly and ved rates the same. You're doing 60 on a single carriageway road is it legal well just weigh you.

Agree that it’s all a mishmash of overlapping, conflicting, or just plain unenforceable regulations at the present time. But as there doesn’t appear to be any enthusiasm from the legislature to use joined up thinking over it the best we can do is to comply with it as is.

OK, so I really do need to update this before I plan my next trip abroad. This will not be until 2025, so I have time. I will wait until I have my new tax rate sorted before I request the change.

IMO that’s the wise thing to do. Baby steps with the DVLA otherwise they’ll just get confused! I don’t understand why SV Tech don’t consider it important enough to advise applicants for up plating to request it from the get go?

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[The Artilleryman]

Vehicle category was left blank on new and old V5C. It is listed as a Motor Caravan on D5 (Body type). F1 has remained the same at 3500, and Mass in Service remains at 3069, which I did not realise was over 3050, and affects speed limits, even before I up-plated?!

Revenue weight and Max. permissible mass, are in 2 different systems, hence Revenue weight gets changed and MTPM is left unchanged as the person doing it is either unaware of what needs to be done, or cannot be bothered to do it.

 

[Guzziando]

Agree that it’s all a mishmash of overlapping, conflicting, or just plain unenforceable regulations at the present time. But as there doesn’t appear to be any enthusiasm from the legislature to use joined up thinking over it the best we can do is to comply with it as is.


IMO that’s the wise thing to do. Baby steps with the DVLA otherwise they’ll just get confused! I don’t understand why SV Tech don’t consider it important enough to advise applicants for up plating to request it from the get go?

I was thinking the same, the paperwork I received from SV Tech made no mention of MTPM, had I known this, I would have flagged it with the DVLA. Admittedly, this may have caused confusion with them

 

[dunnah01]

F1 has remained the same at 3500, and Mass in Service remains at 3069, which I did not realise was over 3050, and affects speed limits, even before I up-plated?!

The 3050kg is the Unladen Weight which is not the same as Mass in Service so at 3069kg you should be well within the higher speed limits

 

[Guzziando]

The 3050kg is the Unladen Weight which is not the same as Mass in Service so at 3069kg you should be well within the higher speed limits

Thank you, just looked this up, unladen weight is without driver and fluids, so all good.

 

[rod_vw]

Throw this into the mix from this Government document.

*N1 – defined as “vehicles used for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes”.

My camper is now recorded on the V5C as Vehicle category N1 - Revenue weight 3500kg - Max Gross Weight 4200kg
How can this be if the N1 Category definition is correct?

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[Minxy]

Maybe those affected need to get their MPs involved as the N1 obviously isn't being done correctly if you can't be over 3500kg

 

[Orion]

My camper is now recorded on the V5C as Vehicle category N1 - Revenue weight 3500kg - Max Gross Weight 4200kg
How can this be if the N1 Category definition is correct?

Because the legislation states that if it was originally registered as N1 it remains as that category of vehicle irrespective of subsequent changes:

(3) If a vehicle is on first registration [F71, under this Act or under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom,] a vehicle to which this Part of this Schedule applies its status as such a vehicle is not affected by a subsequent modification of the vehicle. (my bold).

See my post #371 further up the thread for details.

 

[Orion]

Maybe those affected need to get their MPs involved as the N1 obviously isn't being done correctly if you can't be over 3500kg

But it must have originally been registered as N1 and therefore it remains as such.

It’s in Schedule 1 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.

Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994

An Act to consolidate the enactments relating to vehicle excise duty and the registration of vehicles.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[Minxy]

Because the legislation states that if it was originally registered as N1 it remains as that category of vehicle irrespective of subsequent changes:

(3) If a vehicle is on first registration [F71, under this Act or under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom,] a vehicle to which this Part of this Schedule applies its status as such a vehicle is not affected by a subsequent modification of the vehicle. (my bold).

See my post #137 further up the thread for my details.

We know what it says, but it doesn't mean it makes sense which is what rod is referring to. This situation needs sorting properly - you can't say N1 category has a restriction of 3500kg on one hand and then allow those vehicles to uprate and still be 'legally recognised'.

 

[Orion]

We know what it says, but it doesn't mean it makes sense which is what rod is referring to. This situation needs sorting properly - you can't say N1 category has a restriction of 3500kg on one hand and then allow those vehicles to uprate and still be 'legally recognised'.

I totally agree that it should be addressed but it’s just that section of the legislation that requires amendment and a way found to do it that won’t have a knock on effect elsewhere. Would bumping an N1 vehicle into N2 impact testing regimes and other statutory requirements as an example?

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[L' Hobo]

I totally agree that it should be addressed but it’s just that section of the legislation that requires amendment and a way found to do it that won’t have a knock on effect elsewhere. Would bumping an N1 vehicle into N2 impact testing regimes and other statutory requirements as an example?

Is that a politicians way of asking, 'will it cost us more in road tax and lower our speed limits'

 

[Orion]

Is that a politicians way of asking, 'will it cost us more in road tax and lower our speed limits'

The Law of Unintended Consequences might well apply!

 

[rod_vw]

If Government legislation were to allow the Vehicle Category of previously N1 vehicles to be changed to M1 (SP) by the DVLA when they accepted the Body Type change to Motor Caravan as would have been the case of a similar base vehicle which was converted prior to first registration all of this controversy would have been avoided.

Sorry, that's far too simple so it will never happen!

 

[MichaelT]

If Government legislation were to allow the Vehicle Category of previously N1 vehicles to be changed to M1 (SP) by the DVLA when they accepted the Body Type change to Motor Caravan as would have been the case of a similar base vehicle which was converted prior to first registration all of this controversy would have been avoided.

Sorry, that's far too simple so it will never happen!

It's such a small market there's no need, better things to legislate for.

 

[PAGR]

I'm a little confused by the N1 definition. Our Autotrail Arapaho, 5.5T tag, is vehicle category N1, body type Motor Caravan and registered as so from new. We up plated from 5T gross a few years ago.

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