Whitby Marina carpark. (2 Viewers)

[chaser]

Because a carpark is for parking....
The act of leaving a vehicle, usually unattended, for a period of time.
A campsite is for camping.
The act of parking a vehicle with the intention of living and sleeping in it for a period of time.

Or... Because the government says so.

More accurately, because the applicable legislation says so and there is not a sufficient body of opinion in existence which requires it changing.

if you park your car and sleep in it , is that different

 

[GJH]

Which of course is, as always, the crux of the "argument". And is largely subject to the inertia of local and national governmental bureaucracy. Who have no interest beyond polishing seats and waiting for the highly inflated indexed linked pension. Perish the thought that any one of them may sometime have an "original" thought!. "Yes Minister" was probably the most accurate ever portrayal of the sub human species that inhabit their environment.

What about the inertia of the motorhoming community? How many people have actually campaigned for a change in the legislation?
Or do you think our taxes should be spent on employing people to change legislation for the sake of it, even when there is no strong body campaigning for change?

 

[2657]

if you park your car and sleep in it , is that different

Not at Whitby, Scarborough council web site states 'no sleeping or overnight camping' does not specify vehicle

https://www.scarborough.gov.uk/home/parking/car-parks/marina-front-car-park

same on back car park.

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[PeteH]

What about the inertia of the motorhoming community? How many people have actually campaigned for a change in the legislation?
Or do you think our taxes should be spent on employing people to change legislation for the sake of it, even when there is no strong body campaigning for change?

In a word?. YES. They are very good at telling "US" that what they do is for "our good". but to expect some original thinking? Not a bloody chance!. they are just there 99% of the time to collect and mark time!

 

[GJH]

if you park your car and sleep in it , is that different

Is that post a wind up?
The provisions of S1(4) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 have been explained on many threads in which you have participated.
Those provisions are quite clear: In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed.
A car is not a caravan; a motorhome (motor caravan) is a caravan.

 

[GJH]

In a word?. YES. They are very good at telling "US" that what they do is for "our good". but to expect some original thinking? Not a bloody chance!. they are just there 99% of the time to collect and mark time!

Then perhaps "US" ought to elect different people. Unfortunately that is largely subject to the inertia of voters.

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[GJH]

No, Scarborough council web site states 'no sleeping or overnight camping' does not specify vehicle

https://www.scarborough.gov.uk/home/parking/car-parks/marina-front-car-park

same on back car park.

You are quite correct that Scarborough Council has made that provision but the previous responses were related to post #54 which encompasses all LA car parks.

 

[2657]

You are quite correct that Scarborough Council has made that provision but the previous responses were related to post #54 which encompasses all LA car parks.

Suitably edited

 

[chaser]

Is that post a wind up?
The provisions of S1(4) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 have been explained on many threads in which you have participated.
Those provisions are quite clear: In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed.
A car is not a caravan; a motorhome (motor caravan) is a caravan.

why would it be a wind up?
so what is the difference between sleeping in a car and a motorhome, and please dont go back to your useual , legistration.

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[PeteH]

Then perhaps "US" ought to elect different people. Unfortunately that is largely subject to the inertia of voters.

I rather suspect that little or what "US" voted for would have any measurable influence on the entrenched perceptions of the bureaucracy which is only interested in keeping as many of their kind in lucrative positions. Since our local authority was re-formed the head count has risen 4 fold in terms of "managers". And been drastically reduced at the sharp end. Less Cleaners, bin men etc; but lots more walking about with clip boards "managing". It used to be run form one office, now we have three!.

 

[chaser]

I rather suspect that little or what "US" voted for would have any measurable influence on the entrenched perceptions of the bureaucracy which is only interested in keeping as many of their kind in lucrative positions. Since our local authority was re-formed the head count has risen 4 fold in terms of "managers". And been drastically reduced at the sharp end. Less Cleaners, bin men etc; but lots more walking about with clip boards "managing". It used to be run form one office, now we have three!.

this nonsense of voteing in new councilers is never going to work as they all are in it for their own ends, or are in one party or another and they might do one thing you agree with but totally oppisite in another.

 

[GJH]

why would it be a wind up?

Because, as pointed out, the position has been explained to you a number of times.

so what is the difference between sleeping in a car and a motorhome, and please dont go back to your useual , legistration.

You might not like the legislation but it is the legislation that is the definitive factor and there is no getting away from that.
The 1960 Act applies to caravans only, not cars. As @matamoros has pointed out, Scarborough Council has extended that by specifically excluding sleeping per se.

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[GJH]

I rather suspect that little or what "US" voted for would have any measurable influence on the entrenched perceptions of the bureaucracy which is only interested in keeping as many of their kind in lucrative positions. Since our local authority was re-formed the head count has risen 4 fold in terms of "managers". And been drastically reduced at the sharp end. Less Cleaners, bin men etc; but lots more walking about with clip boards "managing". It used to be run form one office, now we have three!.

There is nothing to stop any elector drumming up support amongst his/her neighbours to overcome such perceived problems - nothing, that is, except their own inertia.

 

[Teuchter]

Which of course is, as always, the crux of the "argument". And is largely subject to the inertia of local and national governmental bureaucracy. Who have no interest beyond polishing seats and waiting for the highly inflated indexed linked pension. Perish the thought that any one of them may sometime have an "original" thought!. "Yes Minister" was probably the most accurate ever portrayal of the sub human species that inhabit their environment.

In a word?. YES. They are very good at telling "US" that what they do is for "our good". but to expect some original thinking? Not a bloody chance!. they are just there 99% of the time to collect and mark time!

All of them??

You do seem to have a very jaundiced view of our local Government

What about the many, many honest, sincere local councillors who give up their time for little or no reward who do their best to administer the UK rules such as they are??? - often in very difficult situations

I am not (nor ever have been a councillor or worked for any form of local government) but I do know some stalwart souls who do just that and receive nowt but scorn, moans & accusations of being lazy and/or corrupt from their fellow citizens for their trouble

I wouldn't do their job that's for sure!!

Luckily some do "step up to the plate" - the same "some" who are voted in by the likes of you & me!!

 

[chaser]

Because, as pointed out, the position has been explained to you a number of times.

You might not like the legislation but it is the legislation that is the definitive factor and there is no getting away from that.
The 1960 Act applies to caravans only, not cars. As @matamoros has pointed out, Scarborough Council has extended that by specifically excluding sleeping per se.

Oh Please!, for once just get out of your council speak, what is the difference between sleeping in a car and a motorhome, both tin boxes , both taxed for the road, both insured , both paid for the car park, whats the bloody difference?

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[2657]

Oh Please!, for once just get out of your council speak, what is the difference between sleeping in a car and a motorhome, both tin boxes , both taxed for the road, both insured , both paid for the car park, whats the bloody difference?

Oh Please! what does it matter what you or I think, @GJH has gone to the trouble of explaining what the law is on this matter, if you don't like it, tough, but don't moan or swear at the messenger please.

 

[chaser]

Oh Please! what does it matter what you or I think, @GJH has gone to the trouble of explaining what the law is on this matter, if you don't like it, tough, but don't moan or swear at the messenger please.

do you know then?

 

[pappajohn]

if you park your car and sleep in it , is that different

No, no sleeping in vehicles applies to all vehicles.... As Graham has already pointed out.
Owning a particular type of vehicle doesn't give anyone special dispensation over any other vehicle as far as the rules and bylaws are concerned.

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[Barclaybasher]

There is nothing to stop any elector drumming up support amongst his/her neighbours to overcome such perceived problems - nothing, that is, except their own inertia.

I for one find the post somewhat patronising..........

Council employees have no power or interest in changing anything, so the easiest thing to do is nothing....safe job, safe pension...........

Councillors are usually elected on party political lines.......... not anything to do with 'issues'....

Most electors will be 'disappointed' ..........for so many reasons.......... for 'inertia'..........read - 'waste of time' - ...............cynicism? - or realism !!

..

 

[pappajohn]

An attempted appeasement maybe..... I can't see the carpark being overrun by permit holders motorhomes somehow..... But it makes it look as though some thought has gone into it.

From the Gazette....

But an amendment to the report was made by Councillor Mike Cockerill at Scarborough Council’s cabinet meeting this week.

He told the cabinet: “I fully support the recommendations but in regard to the Marina Users car park - and I’m emphasising Marina Users - people who have berths in the harbour, I would like to propose an amendment, that motor caravans are only allowed to park within the clearly marked Marina Users car park.

“This would mean that caravans belonging to permit holders are not allowed to park elsewhere if the spaces allocated are all full.”
He added that boat owners with permits who also have a motorhome should be required to leave their curtains open to prove that they are not camping.
His amendment won support from Councillor Sandra Turner who said it was important to take into account that some boat owners will own campervans.

The cabinet voted to receive the report with the amendment, meaning the restrictions will come into place next month on August 1

 

[GJH]

I for one find the post somewhat patronising..........

Council employees have no power or interest in changing anything, so the easiest thing to do is nothing....safe job, safe pension...........

Councillors are usually elected on party political lines.......... not anything to do with 'issues'....

Most electors will be 'disappointed' ..........for so many reasons.......... for 'inertia'..........read - 'waste of time' - ...............cynicism? - or realism !!

..

Whether we like it or not, that is the "democratic" system we live under. If anyone can suggest a better system that is acceptable to the rest of society they are perfectly free to put it forward.
Alternatively people can actually try to understand the situation and use the law constructively.
There are independent councillors all over the country who put themselves forward to try to overcome perceived problems.

If anything is patronising it is having an unfounded pop at council employees in that manner because that simply suggests either lack of understanding or prejudice.
One might just as easily claim that all builders are cowboys or that all lawyers are bent, simply because of the failings of some of them.

You never know, if you look hard enough you might even find a former council employee who carries on his working ethos into campaigning to try to better things for motorhomers

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[GJH]

Oh Please!, for once just get out of your council speak, what is the difference between sleeping in a car and a motorhome, both tin boxes , both taxed for the road, both insured , both paid for the car park, whats the bloody difference?

I did consider trying, yet again, to explain the situation but, as both @matamoros and @pappajohn have demonstrated by their posts that the previous explanations are clear, there seems little point.

 

[Tinty]

We go to Whitby most weekends (every weekend at present as we’re full timing until our house purchase goers through) majority of the time we stay at Whitby holiday park. If we can’t get booked in or we’re going to arrive late on a Friday night we’ll stay in the car park, still purchase a ticket. We always go into Whitby for meals and drinks and easily spend £100+ But when we stay in the holiday park 9 times out of 10 we won’t go into Whitby town centre but will just use the site club. There’s always motorhomes parked in the car park and I’m yet to meet anyone that doesn’t go into Whitby and spend money!

 

[jongood]

IMHO @GJH is interpreting the law as he sees it.

Many of the rest of us think that the regulations are outdated and inapropriate. But as GJH rightly points out it it won't change all by itself, it requires somebody to take up the mantle and get it updated.

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[Barclaybasher]

If anything is patronising it is having an unfounded pop at council employees in that manner because that simply suggests either lack of understanding or prejudice.
One might just as easily claim that all builders are cowboys or that all lawyers are bent, simply because of the failings of some of them.

You never know, if you look hard enough you might even find a former council employee who carries on his working ethos into campaigning to try to better things for motorhomers

I know that you are an ex council employee and have done a great deal to better things for us but even knowing the system it must have been hard for you.

Trying to just talk to someone in local government about anything these days is almost impossible - being directed to parts of their website, leaving messages that are not replied to.....

 

[jongood]

I know that you are an ex council employee and have done a great deal to better things for us but even knowing the system it must have been hard for you.

Trying to just talk to someone in local government about anything these days is almost impossible - being directed to parts of their website, leaving messages that are not replied to.....

I so agree, I ve tried several times to contact anyone at our council to do with parking for this very issue but our lot arent even answering!!

 

[GJH]

IMHO @GJH is interpreting the law as he sees it.

Agreed but, as I have pointed out on a number of occasions, I am not alone in that interpretation. See this article, for example.

Many of the rest of us think that the regulations are outdated and inapropriate. But as GJH rightly points out it it won't change all by itself, it requires somebody to take up the mantle and get it updated.

The regulations may be outdated and inappropriate, but (as I think you mean) that is a different matter from the law as it stands. I am not so sure that the primary legislation (the 1960 Act) needs amending as I think the exemptions it contains, along with the provisions for the Secretary of State to use secondary legislation, are probably sufficient.
I agree, again, that if anyone does want to see changes then they need to be specific and put the necessary work in.

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[GJH]

I know that you are an ex council employee and have done a great deal to better things for us but even knowing the system it must have been hard for you.

Trying to just talk to someone in local government about anything these days is almost impossible - being directed to parts of their website, leaving messages that are not replied to.....

I so agree, I ve tried several times to contact anyone at our council to do with parking for this very issue but our lot arent even answering!!

I have had far more problems in trying to obtain satisfactory responses from private sector companies than from public sector bodies - mainly because the legislative framework available to us is more prescriptive for the public sector.
As I have pointed out on a number of occasions, the best way to try to obtain information is to structure the request so that it qualifies under FoI - which means that the public sector body concerned must comply with the legislative requirements for response.
The other tool we have, in respect of local authorities, is that all their powers and duties are bound by statutes, statutes which include their own compliance requirements. All LAs have a complaints procedure, the final arbiter for which is the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman.
Together, those factors mean that it is less easy for LAs to fob people off than it is for private sector companies (banks for instance).

The common factor to pursuing information requests/grievances with any organisation is knowing what one is actually talking about and what one's rights are. All too often complaints (to any organisation) fail because the complainant has no grounds in the first place.

 

[Mr B]

Just out of interest, how much is a parking fine if you get caught??????
If it’s........................about £60 for 4 nights it sounds a bargain

 

[sdc77]

All this moaning achieves nothing. No one here has done anything at all have they...other than @GJH ...
The law exists . It's possible for it to be changed or amended .. It's possible or for councils to allow overnight 'parking for motorhomes . But some seem to think it's their 'right to be able to park where they want or camp where they want .
I've still seen nothing to indicate that a motorhome parking provides any extra income to a town or village than a family in a car .. or a coach full of people.
More importantly do the locals want them... I would suggest that because of the actions of the few ... coupled with the huge uptake in motorhome ownership ..the answer is no thanks.
Swearing at people trying to help certainly doesn't move things forward.

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