Vibration at 30 - 50 mph - HELP

[Ianbenny]

I have already posted on the tech section about this but haven't solved it yet. Need some technical experience from you guys.

2014 Peugeot Boxer - had the rear chassis and spring bushes changed due to squealing. Also had the tyres changed for the MOT
Chassis bushes are a new design, not the ones below, without a central hollow pin. They must be wider as they supply 2 oversize washers to fit to the springs.

Bad vibration at 30mph to 50mph - levels out at 60mph due to the higher frequency but still there. This van drove really nicely before this.

Thought it was the tyres, so had another set fitted - convinced myself it was better but its not. Its unpleasant to drive and its starting to shake the marking light bolts loose. I have done about 150 miles since but hate driving it now.

So, getting desperate as we were going to France at end of August for the first time in years. It maybe our last trip abroad as wife is unwell.

Had it in for a oil/filter service at a closer garage and he noticed that the anti roll bar had moved to one side, i.e it was not evenly located. Would this cause a problem?

I wonder if the vibration had caused this to slide across.

As it was OK before the work (except the squeal ) I think its resonance from the suspension, my next steps is to try and put it back to the position it was in previously and belt and braces approach:

1. Replacing the new bushes with the older style with a central pin. This allows the shackles to move more easily it needed
2. Replace the springs - this ensures that its not the new spring bushes that were put in
3. Change the shock absorbers just for good measure.

Could it be wheel related or bearing/hubs? Wheels have been balanced to death and again were fine when it went in.

Does this sound feasible. I know it will cost but I have little option but to throw some money at it, as I cant afford another van, and I cant sell it like it is.

The garage that did the work is going to have another look and put the old style bushes in, but they are always busy and it usually takes 3 weeks to get a slot so I am running out of time for my holidays

Any other ideas or thought would be appreciated as I am getting desperate.

 

[Ianbenny]

Hi you do not say if the vibration is felt when you are accelerating and reduces when you ease off if so it’s a classic case of a worn or dry pot joint ( that the inner joint of the drive shaft)

It increases with the speed of the van.

 

[Ianbenny]

So, my mate had a ride out in the van this morning, and had a look underneath, and in the engine bay and around the front wheels.

His conclusion is its from the front end. I have been looking for a cause at the rear as this is where the work was done

He said that he can feel it through the seat like I can, but also he can feel it through the pedals when braking in neutral. There is a slight vibration from the steering wheel as well.

As your suggestions, he looked at the top engine mounts and said they look OK, but said the lower rear one needs to be checked on a ramp.

He said its definitely rotationally induced so check all the rotating stuff on the front end.

My money is on an inner cv joint . When the vehicle was originally raised the suspension hanging has allowed the inner cv joint to slide out into the gaiter & has not reseated correctly

He also said that when the rear has been raised to do the bushes, this can put stress on the front end sometimes and cause a problem.

I will get the garage to check the cv joints and anything else they want to do.

Thanks everyone and open to other suggestions

 

[ChrisL]

So, my mate had a ride out in the van this morning, and had a look underneath, and in the engine bay and around the front wheels.

His conclusion is its from the front end. I have been looking for a cause at the rear as this is where the work was done

He said that he can feel it through the seat like I can, but also he can feel it through the pedals when braking in neutral. There is a slight vibration from the steering wheel as well.

As your suggestions, he looked at the top engine mounts and said they look OK, but said the lower rear one needs to be checked on a ramp.

He said its definitely rotationally induced so check all the rotating stuff on the front end.


He also said that when the rear has been raised to do the bushes, this can put stress on the front end sometimes and cause a problem.

I will get the garage to check the cv joints and anything else they want to do.

Thanks everyone and open to other suggestions

To check the CV joints you can find a steep hill select a low gear and descend under engine braking only, if they are shot they are likely to make a lot of noise. Obviously use your brakes if it starts to run away though

 

[Tony50]

Having spent 50 years in the motor trade I think it’s highly unlikely to have anything to do with the springs/ suspension, the most they will do will be out of alignment so the van would crab,
If it’s vibrating at certain speeds it has to be rotational, so back to wheels/tyres/hub and possibly bearing, also check the runout of the driveshafts, good luck,

Agreed, nothing to do with new parts on suspension/ springs, take it to a garage that deals with your make of vehicle. Bite the bullet it could be cheaper in the long run.

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[Tony50]

To check the CV joints you can find a steep hill select a low gear and descend under engine braking only, if they are shot they are likely to make a lot of noise. Obviously use your brakes if it starts to run away though

Outer joint wear faulty can be checked by selecting a area where you can drive it slowly accelerate slowly not need to drive fast just a few mph on full lock on one side and then full lock on other side if faulty it will go click click click quite loudly ( do not hold on full lock for many seconds or you risk damaging power steering pump,) Inner joints you really need a pit or platform ramp ( I'm assuming it's not automatic) no need to start engine put in 1st gear hand brake off and rock vehicle back and forth you will soon see if joint is faulty/ collapsed it will jump/ wobble or could say move out / go slightly up and down as you rock it ,a bit of a job to explain, but a decent garage will know how to test.

 

[Ianbenny]

Agreed, nothing to do with new parts on suspension/ springs, take it to a garage that deals with your make of vehicle. Bite the bullet it could be cheaper in the long run.

Its finding one locally - they dont seem to want to do these jobs.
Its not a question of how much it costs, I just need it sorted for my holidays

 

[Mikeamapola]

I had a vibration problem on a front wheel drive car years ago. The vibration only occurred in a particular range of speeds. Tried wheel balancing but no difference. Over time the vibration got worse. Ultimately the vibration turned out to be due to a worn cv joint.
This sort of problem can often only be solved by a process of elimination.

I was just about to suggest a CV joint as it happened to me some time back in France. They can appear to fine one moment and the next moment they are gone bad and cause vibration at about 35-40 mph

 

[Raybe]

A couple of Q's to fully understand the problem.
When driving in the speed range when it's at its worst, do any of the following actions make any difference and how so?
Acceleration?
Steady cruising?
Deceleration/coasting?
Steady gentle braking?
Other possibilities include:
Engine/gearbox mounts
Engine misfire/faulty injector
Dual mass flywheel if manual gearbox
misaligned brake disc/drum if they were removed during original work.

 

[Ianbenny]

A couple of Q's to fully understand the problem.
When driving in the speed range when it's at its worst, do any of the following actions make any difference and how so?
Acceleration?
Steady cruising?
Deceleration/coasting?
Steady gentle braking?
Other possibilities include:
Engine/gearbox mounts
Engine misfire/faulty injector
Dual mass flywheel if manual gearbox
misaligned brake disc/drum if they were removed during original work.

Thanks Raybe
Its noticeable at 25-30mph but gets worse until 40mph. Then as the speed increases the vibration increases but the amplitude is less if you understand.
It can be felt through the seat, the van vibrates rather than the normal rattles, and less so through the steering wheel, but it is there. My friend says he can feel it through the brake pedal on deceleration, even in neutral, on his test drive yesterday.

I feel its getting worse. Its certainly something to do with speed of rotation somewhere on the vehicle

Acceleration - but not as you mean. It increases with speed, so under acceleration in 2nd or 3rd gear its not noticeable until the speed increases
Steady Cruising - YES
Deceleration/Coasting - YES
Steady Gentle Braking - YES

Top mounts look OK - he couldnt get to see the rear underneath one yesterday
Engine runs well - no issues
Dual Mass Flywheel - Possibility, but I thought that was a progressive problem - van has 40k miles
Misaligned brake drum etc - possible as the rear nearside is binding slightly but were not removed during the work

Previously I have asked the garage about driveshafts, brake discs/drums, shocks, wheel bearings etc.

Called in today and asked them to look at the front end. But he said he has been thinking about this and he was going to slacken the rear shackle nuts slightly to allow more play to see if it is binding or a stiffness thats causing the issue, as these are the things that were changed. It drove perfectly when I drove it it.

If it is the front end drivetrain then its a coincidence which I don't often believe in

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[Ianbenny]

I was just about to suggest a CV joint as it happened to me some time back in France. They can appear to fine one moment and the next moment they are gone bad and cause vibration at about 35-40 mph

This could be it - as the symptoms are similar and the speed range is spot on.
Is it a harsh vibration? and does it seem better at 50-60mph although still there - bit like an orbital sander the faster the van goes

 

[jpgb43]

I would get someone to follow you at the speed you get maximum vibration and see if they can detect any obvious unusual movement on your wheels, to pin point the wheel or axle that causing it,
Their are some companies that will dynamically balance the wheels on the van which should show up a buckled wheel if you have one,
I have also had this with a distorted tyre, I know you have said they have been replaced but a jack up and using a straight edge across the tyre width with a spin would discount that anomaly,

 

[Tony50]

Thanks Raybe
Its noticeable at 25-30mph but gets worse until 40mph. Then as the speed increases the vibration increases but the amplitude is less if you understand.
It can be felt through the seat, the van vibrates rather than the normal rattles, and less so through the steering wheel, but it is there. My friend says he can feel it through the brake pedal on deceleration, even in neutral, on his test drive yesterday.

I feel its getting worse. Its certainly something to do with speed of rotation somewhere on the vehicle

Acceleration - but not as you mean. It increases with speed, so under acceleration in 2nd or 3rd gear its not noticeable until the speed increases
Steady Cruising - YES
Deceleration/Coasting - YES
Steady Gentle Braking - YES

Top mounts look OK - he couldnt get to see the rear underneath one yesterday
Engine runs well - no issues
Dual Mass Flywheel - Possibility, but I thought that was a progressive problem - van has 40k miles
Misaligned brake drum etc - possible as the rear nearside is binding slightly but were not removed during the work

Previously I have asked the garage about driveshafts, brake discs/drums, shocks, wheel bearings etc.

Called in today and asked them to look at the front end. But he said he has been thinking about this and he was going to slacken the rear shackle nuts slightly to allow more play to see if it is binding or a stiffness thats causing the issue, as these are the things that were changed. It drove perfectly when I drove it it.

If it is the front end drivetrain then its a coincidence which I don't often believe in

If you can feel it through your seat rather than a steering your problem is at the rear I'm 99% sure, I have tested 100's maybe 1000's of cars, in my life and what you are saying seems logical it's the rear.

 

[Ianbenny]

If you can feel it through your seat rather than a steering your problem is at the rear I'm 99% sure, I have tested 100's maybe 1000's of cars, in my life and what you are saying seems logical it's the rear.

Well, that is the most logical to me too. Checking the wheels with the spare tomorrow just for completeness, then the original garage is getting it next Monday
I my years in engineering, the first question was always - what has been changed?

 

[Dochie]

Handbrake shoes/pads ??

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[Tony50]

Well, that is the most logical to me too. Checking the wheels with the spare tomorrow just for completeness, then the original garage is getting it next Monday
I my years in engineering, the first question was always - what has been changed?

Can't say I'm favour with these slow motion wheel balancing, year ago we either used a fairly fast wheels balancer or if there was no drive to the wheels we jacked up. the vehicle and,we slotted a balancer against the tyre and spun it up for the machine to calculate where the weights went.

 

[Jofang]

I've passed vehicles on the motorway that had rear wheel bounce that looked as if they were going fast on a cobbled road. On one such van I could see the shock absorber mounted only at the top end with the bottom end swinging free. Suggest you remove & inspect shocks on both sides.

 

[wolfie2]

Ianbenny...any progress on solving the problem?

 

[Shrimp]

Ianbenny
Come on, tell us all!

 

[Ianbenny]

Ianbenny
Come on, tell us all!

Ianbenny...any progress on solving the problem?

No good news yet to report I am afraid.

So I asked the garage to change the rear chassis mounts to the old version as above, bought from Coastal Motorhomes. I also said he could change the springs if need be as this would put everything that had been done to the van back to square one.

So they changed the upper mounts and no difference. He also said they might as well change the shocks as one was leaking a little, but had supply problems - they sent the wrong ones - if you look online for this van, they quote either 413mm or 443 mm long from memory - The van has 470mm long ones - he got some KYB gas ones eventually but again no difference.

Lastly, he lifted the front end and ran it. He said there was some vibration after 50mph. But this is with the suspension hanging.

It is more noticeable through the steering wheel now as well as the floor.

So after 2 weeks in the garage - no solution. They cant do any more or cant be bothered. Its so annoying that it went in fine.

Gave in and booked it into the main dealers for 2nd September. I have a bit of hope as they asked whether it was coming through the floor or the steering wheel, and had anything been done to the van. But the price for diagnostics is eye watering but don't know what to do next.

I am erring on the drive shaft after lots of google searches.

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[dunnah01]

All the symptoms seem to point to a worn lower balljoint but any garage should be able to spot that. It may be worth persuading them to have closer look with a bigger pry bar (them using the bar not you)

 

[Ianbenny]

I know what I would like to do with the bar. I feel a bit mucked about to be honest

 

[daleman]

"At your suggestions, he looked at the top engine mounts and said they look OK, but said the lower rear one needs to be checked on a ramp"

This has to be worth a try since you've tried everything else! I had a vibration/occasional thumping which felt it was coming from the floor/transmission area of my 2011 Boxer PVC. It wasn't a constant vibration like an out of balance wheel and wasn't present at speed, so not that similar to yours.

Even with a borescope it's not possible to check the part without removing it so I took a punt and just fitted a new one which solved my issue

 

[Ianbenny]

So, been to the dealers today. Had it all day and then said they cant fell any vibration!!!!
Three of them had driven it.
They said it just feels normal for the vehicle.
I have a feeling someone said this further uo the thread when they took it to the main dealer.

I feel like I am going divvy. We all knowour own vehicles. Two other people have been in it, and one I never mentioned the vibration issue, but he mentioned it to me.

Looks like it will be sold to one of these cowboys that buy vans in the magazines as I am sick of banging my head against a wall.

Sad tonight

 

[DABurleigh]

I had similar symptons on a Vauxhall Carlton. Turned out to be a buckled steel wheel. I saw the post that you were going to swap each out in turn with the spare but didn't see if you had done that yet.

Dave

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[driftwood]

I had something similar in an Astra years ago, took me a year to work it out, turned out to be a wheel bearing, was only beginning to go so I only felt it at certain speeds and gave out no noticeabe noise when driving, whatever way it was beginning to fail. Eventually got to the point I could hear it and a bearing change fixed it. We had pulled and pushed the wheels prior to this and couldn't fault it but it was the fix. worth having someone give the wheels a good inspection and jacked up rotate them and listen for any whirring or grinding noise also if they come to rest very fast.

 

[maz]

So, been to the dealers today. Had it all day and then said they cant fell any vibration!!!!
Three of them had driven it.
They said it just feels normal for the vehicle.
I have a feeling someone said this further uo the thread when they took it to the main dealer.

I feel like I am going divvy. We all knowour own vehicles. Two other people have been in it, and one I never mentioned the vibration issue, but he mentioned it to me.

Looks like it will be sold to one of these cowboys that buy vans in the magazines as I am sick of banging my head against a wall.

Sad tonight

Back in 2011/12 when I was having similar issues to you with my first Burstner, I got told the same thing by Ford & Slater in Peterborough. They said that the vibration was 'within normal parameters' which was obviously b*ll*cks but I think they didn't want the hassle of working on my van.

Get the main dealer to put their comments in writing. That way there can be no comeback on you if you sell the van on.

 

[Flairy]

We had this sort of vibration some time ago turned out to be a drive shaft ,we replaced both and cured it.

 

[Ianbenny]

I had similar symptons on a Vauxhall Carlton. Turned out to be a buckled steel wheel. I saw the post that you were going to swap each out in turn with the spare but didn't see if you had done that yet.

Dave

I tried to get this done and managed to get the rear wheels changed in turn with no difference. Then I pranged the side skirt when trying to get back into the garage - its a tight get in and they sell a few bangers, which one was parked to close to the entrance, which I caught with my side skirt, and put a small dent in the door.

I gave up after this felling sick. The part will cost £480. - Loads of luck at the minute - all bad

 

[Ianbenny]

Back in 2011/12 when I was having similar issues to you with my first Burstner, I got told the same thing by Ford & Slater in Peterborough. They said that the vibration was 'within normal parameters' which was obviously b*ll*cks but I think they didn't want the hassle of working on my van.

Get the main dealer to put their comments in writing. That way there can be no comeback on you if you sell the van on.

I have been back today and been out with the service manager - nice bloke with lots of experience. He test drove it with me as a passenger and went through any issues that could cause it. He still insisted they vibrate like this.
The labour charge at the dealer is £150 +vat and he said he could start replacing things but it could escalate cost wise

I took it on a longer drive home, and I now noticed it is vibrating when slowing down to a stop using the brakes to slow for a roundabout as well for example, but not like a warped disc feels through the pedal.

I have got the report in writing stating they think its normal

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[Ianbenny]

We had this sort of vibration some time ago turned out to be a drive shaft ,we replaced both and cured it.

The original garage had the van lifted up and said there is a little play in the o/s drive shaft.
I have been back today to book it in, but the owner is on holiday today.

Do you think both need doing and would you mind telling me an approximate cost.

It cost £135 for the dealer today