Vibration at 30 - 50 mph - HELP

[Ianbenny]

I have already posted on the tech section about this but haven't solved it yet. Need some technical experience from you guys.

2014 Peugeot Boxer - had the rear chassis and spring bushes changed due to squealing. Also had the tyres changed for the MOT
Chassis bushes are a new design, not the ones below, without a central hollow pin. They must be wider as they supply 2 oversize washers to fit to the springs.

Bad vibration at 30mph to 50mph - levels out at 60mph due to the higher frequency but still there. This van drove really nicely before this.

Thought it was the tyres, so had another set fitted - convinced myself it was better but its not. Its unpleasant to drive and its starting to shake the marking light bolts loose. I have done about 150 miles since but hate driving it now.

So, getting desperate as we were going to France at end of August for the first time in years. It maybe our last trip abroad as wife is unwell.

Had it in for a oil/filter service at a closer garage and he noticed that the anti roll bar had moved to one side, i.e it was not evenly located. Would this cause a problem?

I wonder if the vibration had caused this to slide across.

As it was OK before the work (except the squeal ) I think its resonance from the suspension, my next steps is to try and put it back to the position it was in previously and belt and braces approach:

1. Replacing the new bushes with the older style with a central pin. This allows the shackles to move more easily it needed
2. Replace the springs - this ensures that its not the new spring bushes that were put in
3. Change the shock absorbers just for good measure.

Could it be wheel related or bearing/hubs? Wheels have been balanced to death and again were fine when it went in.

Does this sound feasible. I know it will cost but I have little option but to throw some money at it, as I cant afford another van, and I cant sell it like it is.

The garage that did the work is going to have another look and put the old style bushes in, but they are always busy and it usually takes 3 weeks to get a slot so I am running out of time for my holidays

Any other ideas or thought would be appreciated as I am getting desperate.

 

[Landy Andy]

Driveshafts a very unlikely on a front wheel drive. The drive shaft is above the lower suspension wishbone, so well protected.

 

[Ianbenny]

Having spent 50 years in the motor trade I think it’s highly unlikely to have anything to do with the springs/ suspension, the most they will do will be out of alignment so the van would crab,
If it’s vibrating at certain speeds it has to be rotational, so back to wheels/tyres/hub and possibly bearing, also check the runout of the driveshafts, good luck,

It starts to be noticeable at 30mph but is less noticeable at 60mph, although its still there, probably due to the increase in frequency.

I have arranged to have the wheels removed sequentially, and replaced with the spare wheel, so if there is a dodgy wheel this should highlight it. I cant do it due to dodgy back and knees.

If that fails, then its the new bushes being removed and replaced with the ones above which were like for like to the ones that were in originally. Then new shocks, then new springs.

If that doesn't work, then on to the front end and driveshafts.

Trouble is the garage is very busy, so it takes 2-3 weeks to get booked back in and my holiday plans will be out of the window, but cant drive it like this.

Thanks for your replies

 

[Ianbenny]

Found this tech bulletin on another forum, but cant find it now. - Procedure for replacing the bushes

 

[Sue and Rick]

As suggested, get someone to follow you when the vibration is most. If the shocks are buggered you may have a bouncing axle. My sons car had this problem. No oil from shockers giving us a clue, but bounced like a good one when driving. Even the mot guy didnt pick it up.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

maz had a van that from memory was lifted incorrectly and caused an incurable vibration? Long time ago so I may be misremembering?

 

[maz]

maz had a van that from memory was lifted incorrectly and caused an incurable vibration? Long time ago so I may be misremembering?

You are remembering correctly, Karl. That was on my first van - 'The Beastie' Burstner Elegance 821. After all this time I am sketchy about the details but I know that we tried a hell of a lot of different things to diagnose the problem - unsuccessfully. Jock of JockandRita really went out of his way to help with this - great Funster - so he may remember better than me.

From what I recall the vibration started being noticeable at pretty low speeds, maybe 15-20mph, and just persisted. I remember early on trying to drive through it at up to 70mph and never could. All 6 wheels were swapped with those on Jock's van and the problem remained - so that ruled out wheels and tyres. I believe the driveshafts were changed fairly soon after that (under warranty/insurance still I think, as I don't remember paying anything). Still no difference. Then I remember M&N Vehicle Services in Peterborough getting involved and being really helpful, but I can't remember the details. A friend also paid for the alleged top motor engineer in the country to check it out but he couldn't locate the problem either.

It started after it had been into a certain dealer's workshop for warranty work on the hab side and a simple engine service. In the end after everything we could think of had been tried I got rid of The Beastie by trading it in for my Hobby 750.

 

[Gromett]

You are remembering correctly, Karl. That was on my first van - 'The Beastie' Burstner Elegance 821. After all this time I am sketchy about the details but I know that we tried a hell of a lot of different things to diagnose the problem - unsuccessfully. Jock of JockandRita really went out of his way to help with this - great Funster - so he may remember better than me.

From what I recall the vibration started being noticeable at pretty low speeds, maybe 15-20mph, and just persisted. I remember early on trying to drive through it at up to 70mph and never could. All 6 wheels were swapped with those on Jock's van and the problem remained - so that ruled out wheels and tyres. I believe the driveshafts were changed fairly soon after that (under warranty/insurance still I think, as I don't remember paying anything). Still no difference. Then I remember M&N Vehicle Services in Peterborough getting involved and being really helpful, but I can't remember the details. A friend also paid for the alleged top motor engineer in the country to check it out but he couldn't locate the problem either.

It started after it had been into a certain dealer's workshop for warranty work on the hab side and a simple engine service. In the end after everything we could think of had been tried I got rid of The Beastie by trading it in for my Hobby 750.

The above thread jogged my memory as you had all the same suggestions made as above. I am just hoping it is not the same thing

 

[dunnah01]

I may have missed something but I've never heard of a suspension bush without the internal steel sleeve. If that hasn't been fitted then the rubber wouldn't last very long at all and would certainly allow the back end to wobble and cause some noticeable vibrations

 

[JockandRita]

You are remembering correctly, Karl. That was on my first van - 'The Beastie' Burstner Elegance 821. After all this time I am sketchy about the details but I know that we tried a hell of a lot of different things to diagnose the problem - unsuccessfully. Jock of JockandRita really went out of his way to help with this - great Funster - so he may remember better than me.

From what I recall the vibration started being noticeable at pretty low speeds, maybe 15-20mph, and just persisted. I remember early on trying to drive through it at up to 70mph and never could. All 6 wheels were swapped with those on Jock's van and the problem remained - so that ruled out wheels and tyres. I believe the driveshafts were changed fairly soon after that (under warranty/insurance still I think, as I don't remember paying anything). Still no difference. Then I remember M&N Vehicle Services in Peterborough getting involved and being really helpful, but I can't remember the details. A friend also paid for the alleged top motor engineer in the country to check it out but he couldn't locate the problem either.

It started after it had been into a certain dealer's workshop for warranty work on the hab side and a simple engine service. In the end after everything we could think of had been tried I got rid of The Beastie by trading it in for my Hobby 750.

Marian, you've remembered more about the episode than I can, but also, didn't you take it to ALKO UK for investigations and greasing of the rear axles? It was definitely a Toya Wilcox time, ie, a mystery.

I hope you are well, happy, and enjoying life in Slovenia.

Take care,

Jock.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[maz]

Marian, you've remembered more about the episode than I can, but also, didn't you take it to ALKO UK for investigations and greasing of the rear axles? It was definitely a Toya Wilcox time, ie, a mystery.

I hope you are well, happy, and enjoying life in Slovenia.

Take care,

Jock.

Hi Jock. Yes, you are quite right about Alko - I had forgotten that bit. They were great and dismantled both sets of torsion bars, examined them thoroughly (nothing wrong apart from the fact that they appeared never to have been greased!) and then put them back together again. They never charged me a penny either because they were interested to know for themselves whether it could cause the vibration problem.

After reading all this the OP will be a nervous wreck! I hope that a simple and inexpensive solution can be found in his case.

Slovenia is fine but bloody hot at the moment. We've had over a week already of non-stop sun and temps in low-mid 30s with no sign of any respite for another week at least. I've been getting up at 5.30 am most mornings to keep the garden watered, and having fantasies about beautiful British drizzle!

Hope all is good for you and Rita.

 

[Stoosal]

Don’t suppose you have a picture of the new bushes that were put in…..?

If tyres etc all balanced then that is the only other change that was done at the same time. If they don’t have an internal metal collar and sized bolts to fit that would be my first choice to change.

 

[Diabalo]

What about a GoPro camera or old smart phone strapped underneath to video whats going on.

 

[pappajohn]

Second set of new tyres, but could be the wheel.

Doesn't matter.
The tyre and wheel are balanced as one unit.

 

[the darkside]

How old are your tyres? They are over 5-7 years old and haven’t done a lot of miles they can be hardened and out of round due to standing,also they could be starting to delaminate internally between the various layers of construction,often the first signs of this are tyre vibration

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Terry]

How old are your tyres? They are over 5-7 years old and haven’t done a lot of miles they can be hardened and out of round due to standing,also they could be starting to delaminate internally between the various layers of construction,often the first signs of this are tyre vibration

OP has had new tyres ! - twice

 

[Just smiffy]

OP has had new tyres ! - twice

Some people don’t read the thread….

 

[Funnymunny]

I had a similar problem recently, had the wheels and tyres checked by 2 different tyre depots and also the balancing done at the same time but no luck. Taking it to a small tyre dealer he said can I have a drive and came back and said its a tyre straight away.

He took the from wheels off and just rolled them down his yard and the one just veered off to the right, it had a fractured inner core caused by hitting a pot hole on the motorway. He replaced both tyres and an instant improvement
Also noticed when driving the vibration seemed to get worse as the tyres got warmer so look for that

 

[Ianbenny]

I may have missed something but I've never heard of a suspension bush without the internal steel sleeve. If that hasn't been fitted then the rubber wouldn't last very long at all and would certainly allow the back end to wobble and cause some noticeable vibrations

Sorry if this is long winded -

The original bush assembly are shown above in the original post. These have a bush which has a nylon sleeve inserted in either side of the chassis in which fits a hollow steel shaft. This then is fastened in by the two shackle plates either side with a bolt. The shaft will be slightly larger than the length of the two bushes when pushed into the chassis so giving a very small amount of clearance I think, which allows the shackle assembly to rotate back and forth .when the spring moves up and down due to the unevenness of the road. The bushes have a flange on so they cannot be pressed in to deep.

The new bush assembly is of the type which is used in the spring eyes, that is it has a steel outer casing, with a rubber donut and steel hollow pin at the centre. The rubber is moulded onto the pin and the steel outer casing. The shackls are then bolted to the inner steel core. There is no clearance. The movement of the vehicle spring is then accommodated by the rubber flexing.

In the new bushes, they are supplied with 2 washes to go on either side of the spring bush, as the new bushes are longer than the originals - (see attached service sheet from Chrysler)

I have a feeling that this is causing the issue, but I cannot get under the van as my knee wont allow it to see anything. My friend who is a diesel fitter, who has 40 years experience is going to have a look tomorrow so he will see what is happening - finger crossed

 

[Ianbenny]

Doesn't matter.
The tyre and wheel are balanced as one unit.

Thats what I thought too, but some posts disagree.
I cant see how I have a buckled rim when it went in the garage fine and came out like this

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ianbenny]

Don’t suppose you have a picture of the new bushes that were put in…..?

If tyres etc all balanced then that is the only other change that was done at the same time. If they don’t have an internal metal collar and sized bolts to fit that would be my first choice to change.

I cant find a picture on the net,

See page three on the service bulletin - it shows the two types

 

[BobilG600]

I had a vibration problem on a front wheel drive car years ago. The vibration only occurred in a particular range of speeds. Tried wheel balancing but no difference. Over time the vibration got worse. Ultimately the vibration turned out to be due to a worn cv joint.
This sort of problem can often only be solved by a process of elimination.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I had a vibration problem on a front wheel drive car years ago. The vibration only occurred in a particular range of speeds. Tried wheel balancing but no difference. Over time the vibration got worse. Ultimately the vibration turned out to be due to a worn cv joint.
This sort of problem can often only be solved by a process of elimination.

I had the very same on a Boxer van

 

[dunnah01]

Sorry if this is long winded -

The original bush assembly are shown above in the original post. These have a bush which has a nylon sleeve inserted in either side of the chassis in which fits a hollow steel shaft. This then is fastened in by the two shackle plates either side with a bolt. The shaft will be slightly larger than the length of the two bushes when pushed into the chassis so giving a very small amount of clearance I think, which allows the shackle assembly to rotate back and forth .when the spring moves up and down due to the unevenness of the road. The bushes have a flange on so they cannot be pressed in to deep.

The new bush assembly is of the type which is used in the spring eyes, that is it has a steel outer casing, with a rubber donut and steel hollow pin at the centre. The rubber is moulded onto the pin and the steel outer casing. The shackls are then bolted to the inner steel core. There is no clearance. The movement of the vehicle spring is then accommodated by the rubber flexing.

In the new bushes, they are supplied with 2 washes to go on either side of the spring bush, as the new bushes are longer than the originals - (see attached service sheet from Chrysler)

I have a feeling that this is causing the issue, but I cannot get under the van as my knee wont allow it to see anything. My friend who is a diesel fitter, who has 40 years experience is going to have a look tomorrow so he will see what is happening - finger crossed

Sounds like squeeling has ben a problem so they have replaced the old style sleeve with a silentbloc which makes sense

 

[Miggs]

CV Joints?
Engine mountings?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[SVMC15]

Found this tech bulletin on another forum, but cant find it now. - Procedure for replacing the bushes

I did this yesterday, no issues for the van, just me aching, 195nm under the van was not fun

Ianbenny Have the spacer washers been fitted to the lower shackle? These weren't on the old design and don't come with the new bushes! Also the nuts should face outwards apparently.

 

[chain driven]

Hi you do not say if the vibration is felt when you are accelerating and reduces when you ease off if so it’s a classic case of a worn or dry pot joint ( that the inner joint of the drive shaft)

 

[ANDKEZLULA]

Hi you do not say if the vibration is felt when you are accelerating and reduces when you ease off if so it’s a classic case of a worn or dry pot joint ( that the inner joint of the drive shaft)

My money is on an inner cv joint . When the vehicle was originally raised the suspension hanging has allowed the inner cv joint to slide out into the gaiter & has not reseated correctly

 

[zedman]

My mate had a problem just like this on a 19plate fiat ducato.....after months of elimination starting with the wheels and tyres it turned out that one of the roller bearings in the inner cv joint on the long drive shaft had seized solid. If I was you though I'd get the wheels rebalanced at another garage....once took a garage three attempts to get mine perfect on a previous van.

 

[JohnFX]

I had this sort of problem with a new car years ago turned out to be water in the tyre. Caused the main agent all kinds of problems trying to find the cause. Can only assume it was condensation in the air tank on a Monday Morning.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ianbenny]

I did this yesterday, no issues for the van, just me aching, 195nm under the van was not fun

Ianbenny Have the spacer washers been fitted to the lower shackle? These weren't on the old design and don't come with the new bushes! Also the nuts should face outwards apparently.

Yes they have, and the nuts face outwards