Unladen weight for speed limit purposes

[swemmy666]

Am I right in think the unladed weight for speed limit purposes is the MIRO, minus the following items?

• Mass of unladen vehicle including tyre mobility system and onboard tool set.
• Driver’s weight allowance of 75kg.
• Fuel tank filled up to 90%.
• 16kg allowance for gas cylinders.
• 20% full fresh water tank and water system.
• 100% full boiler.
• Mains electric cable.

 

[Pausim]

My V5 shows 'mass in service' at 3025. Not sure if this is a typo or official. A couple of questions here:

1. What is 'mass in service' and how does it relate to 'unladen weight'

2. Can I drive at 70 or not?

I would say the mass in service can not be less than the unladen weight so you should be ok. It is what I am relying on.

 

[bigtwin]

My V5 shows 'mass in service' at 3025. Not sure if this is a typo or official. A couple of questions here:

1. What is 'mass in service' and how does it relate to 'unladen weight'

2. Can I drive at 70 or not?

Mass in Service (also known as MIRO, mass in running order) includes the driver and some allowance for liquids (fuel, water).

On that basis it’d be fair to say that your ULW is < 3050 Kg.

Ian

 

[Orion]

My V5 shows 'mass in service' at 3025. Not sure if this is a typo or official. A couple of questions here:

1. What is 'mass in service' and how does it relate to 'unladen weight'

The weight the vehicle left the factory at including the bits and bobs (technical terms ) mentioned by others on the thread above. The ULW will be below this as it would not include those.

2. Can I drive at 70 or not?

Yes, normal national speed limits apply.

 

[Minxy]

Strewth gus-lopez ... I think you've just broken your record for number of quotes!

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[dunnah01]

My French moho has a plate stating Poids a Vide of 3260kg - how fast could I go?

 

[Phill D]

My French moho has a plate stating Poids a Vide of 3260kg - how fast could I go?

Do see a uk police officer looking for a weight plate to decide if to book you or not

 

[dunnah01]

Do see a uk police officer looking for a weight plate to decide if to book you or not

I'd still like to know what my legal UK speeds are though - not sure how clever the latest speed cameras are

 

[bigtwin]

My French moho has a plate stating Poids a Vide of 3260kg - how fast could I go?

Which engine does it have?

Ian

 

[PaulW2]

98 posts later. Isn't it just remarkable how complicated even a simple thing can become in our regulation? And how, once it's in place, no-one has the wherewithal or the incentive to correct it.

So multiply that by ... a big number, to take account of the complexity in other domains. (Tax, pensions, voting, driving licences, you name it.)

You would think it would be the simplest thing in the world just to decree that henceforth it will follow the maximum plated weight. As it does in other places.

All this surely has to add to our overall inefficiency? All these arcane rules and regulations and apparatchiks who have to oversee it, and citizens who never quite understand what the rules are and are always at risk of being caught for something?

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[Pausim]

My French moho has a plate stating Poids a Vide of 3260kg - how fast could I go?

I'd still like to know what my legal UK speeds are though - not sure how clever the latest speed cameras are

Your “Poids a Vide” (empty weight) of 3260kg is above the 3050kg limit so I think you have to comply with the lower speed limits.

 

[Phill D]

I'd still like to know what my legal UK speeds are though - not sure how clever the latest speed cameras are

I think that it is very likely that you’re van is over the 3050kgs ULW.

 

[dunnah01]

I think that it is very likely that you’re van is over the 3050kgs ULW.

I once worked it out as the UK Unladen Weight was somewhere between 2915kg to 3223kg, got a headache and gave up.
If I tried to stick to 50mph past all the speed cameras on the single carriageways around here I'd get a big queue of 40t lorries with purple faced drivers behind me and a load of BMW and Audi drivers making gung-ho overtakes with one hand on the steering wheel and a finger on the other hand waving me a pleasant journey

 

[rod_vw]

As Orion says.

You have a panel van conversion.

Camera sees you doing 60 on a single carriageway (or 70 on a dual).

ANPR links to the DVLA database, sees you are a 'van with windows', or N1, or PLG or PHGV (however it is they do it) rather than a 'motor caravan'.

Automatically sends a ticket.

I do not know if vehicles with motor caravan on the V5 would be excluded at this point, I presume if you are M1 then also you would be excluded.

But it is the case, that many owners of campervans based on commercial vehicles have had tickets, and also have had them rescinded.

If you have a PVC that was registered before conversion it will be N1 and according to current DVLA rules will always remain so. I've got a document from them stating that.
However it can have the body type changed to Motor Caravan and if required up-plated above 3500kg.
This still leaves the question of the 'Unladen weight'.
The V5C of my PVC states...
Body type ~ Motor Caravan
Taxation Class ~ Light goods vehicle
Vehicle category ~ N1
Maximum permissible mass ~ 4200
Mass in service ~ 2269

In the light of the above I assume that as far as speed limits are concerned it's classed as a car.

And before anyone jumps on it there is currently a national dispute about the recent change of policy at the DVLA of changing from Light Goods Vehicle to Private Heavy Goods Vehicle which they refuse to do in the case of N1 registered vehicles.

 

[WESTY66]

If you have a PVC that was registered before conversion it will be N1 and according to current DVLA rules will always remain so. I've got a document from them stating that.
However it can have the body type changed to Motor Caravan and if required up-plated above 3500kg.
This still leaves the question of the 'Unladen weight'.
The V5C of my PVC states...
Body type ~ Motor Caravan
Taxation Class ~ Light goods vehicle
Vehicle category ~ N1
Maximum permissible mass ~ 4200
Mass in service ~ 2269

In the light of the above I assume that as far as speed limits are concerned it's classed as a car.

And before anyone jumps on it there is currently a national dispute about the recent change of policy at the DVLA of changing from Light Goods Vehicle to Private Heavy Goods Vehicle which they refuse to do in the case of N1 registered vehicles.

I think anything with an “N” on the V5 has to get an additional “Pickerl” sticker for Austria as well As a vignette, but double check that

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[rod_vw]

I think anything with an “N” on the V5 has to get an additional “Pickerl” sticker for Austria as well As a vignette, but double check that

Interesting, that's another argument to have with the DVLA.
International convention states that N1 has a maximum gross mass of 3500kg but I have a document from the DVLA stating that they cannot alter a vehicle classification once it's been registered regardless of changing the max gross mass.
This is an argument going on nationally by the conversion trade.

 

[activecampers]

Taxation class, N1 or Cheesium has no legal link to speed limits
Body type motor caravan/van with windows has no legal link to speed limits
Unladen weight, as far as my research took me, is not defined in law, and would need to be argued in court to get a precedent which I could not find ever happening.

Personally, my view is a its a converted van with nothing in. But CoC / weight plate does not state or define "unladen weight". Minefield. Personally I weighed mine after conversion and got a print out (3000kg with us both in it as well as other stuff, so I'm well under 3050 which is all I care about)

Cameras/ANPR do not have a clue, do not confuse fines issues with legal facts as they get it wrong

A "motorcaravan" definition in law is defined in the 1979 RTA definitions and is only defined as

 

[rod_vw]

Taxation class, N1 or Cheesium has no legal link to speed limits
Body type motor caravan/van with windows has no legal link to speed limits
Unladen weight, as far as my research took me, is not defined in law, and would need to be argued in court to get a precedent which I could not find ever happening.

Personally, my view is a its a converted van with nothing in. But CoC / weight plate does not state or define "unladen weight". Minefield. Personally I weighed mine after conversion and got a print out (3000kg with us both in it as well as other stuff, so I'm well under 3050 which is all I care about)

Cameras/ANPR do not have a clue, do not confuse fines issues with legal facts as they get it wrong

A "motorcaravan" definition in law is defined in the 1979 RTA definitions and is only defined as



View attachment 952106

There is a more precise definition on the DVLA website detailing minimum fittings that must be installed as far as they are concerned additionally there is a very similar definition in a EU document which I have a link to at home.
There are also government documents stating that a Motor Caravan comes within the classification of 'Special Vehicle'.
The deeper you look the bigger becomes the can of worms!

 

[VXman]

Do see a uk police officer looking for a weight plate to decide if to book you or not

with ANPR they could know the speed limit for your particular vehicle or at least be able to access the weight as recorded on your V5. As said speed cameras are presumably set up for this.

 

[barryd]

Not read the whole thread but has anyone been done for it? I bet not.

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[tonyidle]

with ANPR they could know the speed limit for your particular vehicle or at least be able to access the weight as recorded on your V5. As said speed cameras are presumably set up for this.

I'm sure they aren't. See my previous post on the subject. I travel at a genuine 65mph (conditions allowing) whenever subject to the national speed limit in a 5.4 tonne vehicle. I've never been flashed and never seen any Police interest................. Yet . I'm often towing a car too.

 

[Ray-Vic]

My Bailey must be right on the limit as the MRO is stated as 3,276kg, with an allowance (for driver & fuel etc) of 180kg. I assume this means an ULW of 3,096kg?

I think what makes it confusing for some, especially relative newbies like us, is things like my Garmin sat-nav, which shows me my speed limits on roads even though I've never put my ULW in the unit, only my MTPLM when setting it up. Maybe it makes an assumption that I must then be over 3,050kg ULW? This shows me as 50 in single and dual carriageway nationals and 70 on motorways, which I have always stuck to.

I have to be honest and say I never do 70 on a motorway anyway, but 50 on a dual carriageway can feel a little restrictive.

Would you say from the above that I'm likely to be over 3,050kg ULW and should stick to what I'm doing now?

 

[Jim]

Motorhome Speed Limits.

Motorhome speed limits are not straightforward as they depend upon the weight of your empty motorhome. This article explains all.

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[Phill D]

with ANPR they could know the speed limit for your particular vehicle or at least be able to access the weight as recorded on your V5. As said speed cameras are presumably set up for this.

There are very few if any v5 with the unladen weight recorded.
So it would not be that easy for them.

If we are unsure of our ULW and we have access to CoC and other docs, what chance to DVLA have when they can’t even get mam correct.

 

[The Artilleryman]

If I tried to stick to 50mph past all the speed cameras on the single carriageways around here I'd get a big queue of 40t lorries with purple faced drivers behind me and a load of BMW and Audi drivers making gung-ho overtakes with one hand on the steering wheel and a finger on the other hand waving me a pleasant journey

The 40t lorries have to stick to the 50mph limit as well - except their tacho's are calibrated, so will be nearer an actual 50mph than you - most of the roads in my area are single carriageway and as I am towing a 2T trailer I will be doing 50mph - taken from the satnav - and don't cause any hold ups.

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[poppycamper]

The 40t lorries have to stick to the 50mph limit as well -

Not in Scotland... the speed limit for them is 40MPH.. They were trialling 50MPH on parts of A9.. don't know ow if still are.

 

[CAB96]

Not read the whole thread but has anyone been done for it? I bet not.

Several instances of VWs on the various forums, plus evidence of them being rescinded.

 

[rod_vw]

I'm intrigued by some of the weight descriptions being quoted above, this is all that is on my V5C which is a post registration PVC so the only CoC that can apply is that of an ex-dealer panel van.
Body type ~ Motor Caravan
Taxation Class ~ Light goods vehicle
Vehicle category ~ N1
Maximum permissible mass ~ 4200
Mass in service ~ 2269
Therefore surely only what is printed on my V5C can be relevant in law?

So where do such descriptions as MRO, MIRO and ULW fit in with anything printed on my documents?

 

[bigtwin]

I'm intrigued by some of the weight descriptions being quoted above, this is all that is on my V5C which is a post registration PVC so the only CoC that can apply is that of an ex-dealer panel van.
Body type ~ Motor Caravan
Taxation Class ~ Light goods vehicle
Vehicle category ~ N1
Maximum permissible mass ~ 4200
Mass in service ~ 2269
Therefore surely only what is printed on my V5C can be relevant in law?

So where do such descriptions as MRO, MIRO and ULW fit in with anything printed on my documents?

They don’t but unladen weight is referenced in the Speed Limits section on .gov.uk.

Ian

 

[rod_vw]

They don’t but unladen weight is referenced in the Speed Limits section on .gov.uk.

Ian

Thanks Ian

So we are back to the original question, what is the definition of the unladen weight of a vehicle?
If it's not quoted on any of the vehicle documents how the hell does anyone know?

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[68c]

In the name, Unladen Weight.

Empty all cupboards and lockers, drain all water, remove gas bottles, empty toilet cassette, fill fuel tank and get it weighed without you in it. Deduct weight of fuel and there you are, your unladen weight.