Unladen weight for speed limit purposes

[swemmy666]

Am I right in think the unladed weight for speed limit purposes is the MIRO, minus the following items?

• Mass of unladen vehicle including tyre mobility system and onboard tool set.
• Driver’s weight allowance of 75kg.
• Fuel tank filled up to 90%.
• 16kg allowance for gas cylinders.
• 20% full fresh water tank and water system.
• 100% full boiler.
• Mains electric cable.

 

[Emmit]

In the name, Unladen Weight.

Empty all cupboards and lockers, drain all water, remove gas bottles, empty toilet cassette, fill fuel tank and get it weighed without you in it. Deduct weight of fuel and there you are, your unladen weight.

Minus anything bolted, stuck or screwed onto it that wasn't part of the original spec.
ie, awning, bike carrier, Aircon, solar panel, habitation batteries. That's at least 100kgs in most circs.

 

[Orion]

Minus anything bolted, stuck or screwed onto it that wasn't part of the original spec.
ie, awning, bike carrier, Aircon, solar panel, habitation batteries. That's at least 100kgs in most circs.

Which is exactly what is on the CoC for our Adria:

13. Mass in Running order: 2773kg - the vehicle as it left production.

13.2 Actual Mass of the Vehicle: 3018kg - the vehicle as delivered with factory fitted extras; aircon, extra hab battery, solar equipment, etc.

Additional equipment added post delivery, such as hydraulic levelling, rear air bags, spare wheel, etc., will eat into the available payload up to the maximum laden mass of (at the time) 3650kg.

I see that the V5C has at G: Mass in Service 3018kg, so the dealer completed the online registration with DVLA correctly.

 

[rod_vw]

In the name, Unladen Weight.

Empty all cupboards and lockers, drain all water, remove gas bottles, empty toilet cassette, fill fuel tank and get it weighed without you in it. Deduct weight of fuel and there you are, your unladen weight.

68c I like your confidence BUT can you find a DVLA, DVSA or other official government document quoting just that? If so please let's have a link to it.
When converting and changing the body type of a van to Motor Caravan you are not required to provide any weight figures to authority unless you are up-plating it. As far as authority is concerned the Mass in Service remains the same as when it was a van. I quoted my own example above.

Edit:-

Having just read the post below I think I see where you are all getting your figures from.
MIRO is quoted on a CoC of a vehicle as it left the factory but and is where you all start with the possible payload that your factory built vehicles can carry including any post manufacture/conversion added accessories.
However if you purchase a van and register it prior to conversion the only Mass in Service figure available is that at the date of purchase. Self builds etc. do not have a valid CoC that relates to the final conversion weight and authority never asks for that. Therefore the Mass in Service figure remains the same as when originally registered and our ruling weight is the Maximum Permissible Mass

 

[Pausim]

13. Mass in Running order: 2773kg - the vehicle as it left production.

Mass in Running Order should include weight of driver, fuel, some water and a gas bottle.

I see that the V5C has at G: Mass in Service 3018kg, so the dealer completed the online registration with DVLA correctly.

Not in my case, the dealer put the MIRO figure in the Unladen weight box on the registration application (I have a copy). Fortunately the DVLA corrected it and took a lower figure from the CoC for the Mass in service.

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[Stoosal]

68c I like your confidence BUT can you find a DVLA, DVSA or other official government document quoting just that? If so please let's have a link to it.
When converting and changing the body type of a van to Motor Caravan you are not required to provide any weight figures to authority unless you are up-plating it. As far as authority is concerned the Mass in Service remains the same as when it was a van. I quoted my own example above.

Unladen weight is determined by the construction and use regulations. This is the definition used for speed regs.

unladen weight

the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.

 

[activecampers]

There is a more precise definition on the DVLA website detailing minimum fittings that must be installed as far as they are concerned additionally there is a very similar definition in a EU document which I have a link to at home.
There are also government documents stating that a Motor Caravan comes within the classification of 'Special Vehicle'.
The deeper you look the bigger becomes the can of worms!

That has nothing to do with speed limits nor legal definition of a MC
It is not a precise definition, its a list of "guidelines" they may or may not follow, and indeed they will say some vans will be MC without all the guidelines being met, and they may convert some vans to MC even if they don't meet all guidance. All this covers is a tick in the box on V5 and has no legal difference in terms of if its a MC or not. Its not define in law, it was probably written by a student based on the ambiguous statements - but its not a legal definition, definitive, or binding

(* I've had a van "fail" 4 times, complaints fail twice, only to pass and get an apology for not passing 1st time once my MP got involved asking them to justify their application of their "guidelines" - with no changes to the van during this period. Fair to say i spend more time researching/fighting than 99.99% of people on this topic. And yes, full in writing apology from DVLA - despite their internal people rejecting it and the complain 6 times in total prior).

EU document is not applicable to UK law in this instance, the UK RTA is definitive.
Gov documents/websites stating X/Y/Z or special vehicle is irrelevant if its not passed through to legislation

Ergo, the definitive is the RTA 1984 linking to definitions in the 1979 act.

All I say above is confirmed as fact by DfT, in writing, in the public domain.

Any other websites/experts/blogs/YT experts/FB experts are not authoritative albeit their voices are heard more. DfT confirming, and UK legislation is the only thing that matters.

 

[bigtwin]

If it's not quoted on any of the vehicle documents how the hell does anyone know?

Generally, nobody knows so it’d be an easy defence.

Ian

 

[rod_vw]

That has nothing to do with speed limits nor legal definition of a MC
It is not a precise definition, its a list of "guidelines" they may or may not follow, and indeed they will say some vans will be MC without all the guidelines being met, and they may convert some vans to MC even if they don't meet all guidance. All this covers is a tick in the box on V5 and has no legal difference in terms of if its a MC or not. Its not define in law, it was probably written by a student based on the ambiguous statements - but its not a legal definition, definitive, or binding

(* I've had a van "fail" 4 times, complaints fail twice, only to pass and get an apology for not passing 1st time once my MP got involved asking them to justify their application of their "guidelines" - with no changes to the van during this period. Fair to say i spend more time researching/fighting than 99.99% of people on this topic. And yes, full in writing apology from DVLA - despite their internal people rejecting it and the complain 6 times in total prior).

EU document is not applicable to UK law in this instance, the UK RTA is definitive.
Gov documents/websites stating X/Y/Z or special vehicle is irrelevant if its not passed through to legislation

Ergo, the definitive is the RTA 1984 linking to definitions in the 1979 act.

All I say above is confirmed as fact by DfT, in writing, in the public domain.

Any other websites/experts/blogs/YT experts/FB experts are not authoritative albeit their voices are heard more. DfT confirming, and UK legislation is the only thing that matters.

activecampers I do not dispute what you are saying but I do wonder where Item 2.5.1 of this document fits in to it all

As I said, the deeper you look the greater the can of worms, that could be construed to mean that a vehicle has to be classified as M1 to be a Motor Caravan.

My argument with the DVLA currently is over their decision that the Revenue Weight cannot be changed thus the taxation class cannot be changed despite the vehicle being up-plated to 4200kg from 3500kg. i.e. it's still PLG. They also insist that it must remain as N1 despite international standards saying that an N1 vehicle has a maximum gross weight not more than 3500kg.

 

[activecampers]

activecampers I do not dispute what you are saying but I do wonder where Item 2.5.1 of this document fits in to it all

As I said, the deeper you look the greater the can of worms, that could be construed to mean that a vehicle has to be classified as M1 to be a Motor Caravan.

My argument with the DVLA currently is over their decision that the Revenue Weight cannot be changed thus the taxation class cannot be changed despite the vehicle being up-plated to 4200kg from 3500kg. i.e. it's still PLG. They also insist that it must remain as N1 despite international standards saying that an N1 vehicle has a maximum gross weight not more than 3500kg.

Thats a european working party think tank - those definitions have not (AFAICT) made it into legislation (at least the latest legislation does not reference them). Regardless, the document refers to type approval requirements rather than legal definition of such vehicle for other requirements.

Motorcaravans are a niche part in law, out dated, not priority, and grayer than the wifes hair.

I have never focused >3.5t as it does not affect me, so I'll do a french shoulder shrug, say "meh", and move on

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[Minxy]

You would think it would be the simplest thing in the world just to decree that henceforth it will follow the maximum plated weight. As it does in other places.

Noooooooooooo!!!!!! Our MH is 2830 unladen so we can go fast in the UK! If it's changed to anything over 3500kg we'll then be stuck with going slower!

Not in Scotland... the speed limit for them is 40MPH.. They were trialling 50MPH on parts of A9.. don't know ow if still are.

And a right pain in the bum it is too ... all it does is cause miles and miles of hold-ups for cars etc who get stuck behind them with dual carriageways/passing lanes not being that frequent it can mean travelling long distances before a few can get by assuming the driver in the vehicle stuck immediately behind the truck hasn't fallen asleep by then!

Minus anything bolted, stuck or screwed onto it that wasn't part of the original spec.
ie, awning, bike carrier, Aircon, solar panel, habitation batteries. That's at least 100kgs in most circs.

Our unladen is 2830, with accessories it's 3083 ...

 

[Minxy]

The deeper you look the bigger becomes the can of worms!

We don't have can's of worms ... we have tubs of woggums!

 

[The Artilleryman]

My argument with the DVLA currently is over their decision that the Revenue Weight cannot be changed thus the taxation class cannot be changed despite the vehicle being up-plated to 4200kg from 3500kg. i.e. it's still PLG. They also insist that it must remain as N1 despite international standards saying that an N1 vehicle has a maximum gross weight not more than 3500kg.

I thought this had been sorted - although mine was M1 - as when I re applied in July it went through OK - except Mass in service, was wrong.

 

[VWDrooper]

Attached is a screen shot of the relevant section of the Certificate Of Conformity from our motorhome, does this show a unladen weight below the threshold to do the faster speed’s, a little unsure.

 

[Pausim]

Attached is a screen shot of the relevant section of the Certificate Of Conformity from our motorhome, does this show a unladen weight below the threshold to do the faster speed’s, a little unsure.



View attachment 959323

I don’t think the incomplete vehicle or maximum axle weight figures help. You need the CoC for the finished vehicle, this one looks like the CoC for the chassis before the bodywork was added.

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[VWDrooper]

I don’t think the incomplete vehicle or maximum axle weight figures help. You need the CoC for the finished vehicle, this one looks like the CoC for the chassis before the bodywork was added.

This was my assumption, just wasn’t sure about item 15

 

[Pausim]

This was my assumption, just wasn’t sure about item 15

Not sure what 15 means but I don’t think it helps because it would need to be an actual kerb weigh following completion of the build.