Is the EV motorhome starting to look to be a viable prospect ?

[SheikhLala]

Electric delivery vans are now economical in larger towns and cities. They tend to travel at lower speeds, don't carry that much weight (mainly volume), can do dozens of stops for not many miles and EVs have an advantage in stop-start conditions. They cost more up front, but cost very little to run. Charging every night at the depot isn't an issue for them.

A few things in my experience aren't quite right. We have MAN 3500kg EVs, they carry the same as their diesel equivilents apart from not being LWB. The weight versus volume is very dependent on the day, the time of year, and almost every other factor you can think of. Some pet food supplier does a special on 30kg dried dog food and all of sudden the day is very heavy!!
Up front costs are ridiculously high and even with the grant for purchase price and help with the ev charger, its still too early to say how cost effective it is. Typically the stop rate for ev vehicles is lower than fossil fuelled vehicles because it is believed that the running costs are lower. BUT with the cost of energy prices soaring through the roof this might not be the case. I have an EV tariff with Octopus which gives me 5p/Kw between 0030 and 0430, then at all other times is 25p/Kw. The depot has a flat rate of 25p and not enough chargers for the whole ev fleet, apparently there is a issue with the sites electrical design and what it can handle and presumably what the local substation can supply....I don't know the ins and outs of that but I do know that they had to install faster chargers for the MANs and that reduced the capacity for the Maxus and Nissans.
Ev vans suffer greatly with payload vs driving style and the effective range. One of our city centre drivers struggled to do his route because of his driving style. There is an argument that the way the vans are driven, loaded etc is due to the pressures of having to do your route in a certain way ie morning rush hour traffic, lack of loading bays, people parking in loading bays especially with the massive increase in uber/deliveroo/just eat drivers hogging them, deliveries having to be done before 1030, 1200 etc.
With regards to running them...my insurance is higher than having a LWB Sprinter. The Sprinter was a 316 auto which did a 52 mile round trip commute and on average 50 route miles/day, it averaged 40 mpg. The Milk Float, as I call it, does the same mileage but struggles to get 35 mpg. In fairness, with time the mpg might increase but I'm still not convinced that it is the way forward.

 

[The Wino]

Understandably everyone is comparing the running costs of EVs at present costs for diesel recharging road tax etc but I think the thing that's certain is they are all going to change. It could well be like when we got our first flat screen computer monitor. They were a lot more expensive and looked unlikely to catch on. Within a few years everyone had changed.

 

[Coolcats]

For the Hydrogen naysayers, Big industry is taking this seriously it will take time but these Manufacturers are serious about these investments and will want a return its all about the political shaping of how this happens and is really positive for us all and future generations.

bp and Daimler Truck AG to accelerate the deployment of hydrogen infrastructure, supporting the decarbonization of UK freight transport​

Hydrogen and the UK green revolution​

 

[Guigsy]

For the Hydrogen naysayers, Big industry is taking this seriously it will take time but these Manufacturers are serious about these investments and will want a return its all about the political shaping of how this happens and is really positive for us all and future generations.

bp and Daimler Truck AG to accelerate the deployment of hydrogen infrastructure, supporting the decarbonization of UK freight transport​

Hydrogen and the UK green revolution​

Fleet trucks can fill up at depots. Trucks need very few filling stations. Just because trucks get hydrogen options, it doesn't mean it'll be viable for panel vans. Until it becomes practical for panel vans to use hydrogen, manufacturers will be reluctant to make them. Especially as they are already invested in making battery variants.

Large motorhomes are not going to be practical on batteries. There's not enough demand for manufacturers to make hydrogen powered base vehicles. I'm getting a feeling that MoHos are going to go extinct.

 

[Monty777]

Some 25 plus years ago we watched the London to Brighton veteran car run from about the halfway point.
There was an American 1902 electric powered car called a Columbia entered on the run which pulled over and stopped for a recharge just across the way from us.
We popped over to have a look around it and have a read of the information sheet that was on the side of the car.
One of the things I remember from that information sheet was that back in 1902 when it was made that nearly 40% of the vehicles on the road in America back then were electric powered.

The alternative back then was very inefficient i/c engines-or steam. Steam powered vehicles were rather like the electric cars of today in that they were clean and silent and the 0-30 performance was impressive. I am currently rebuilding the 1900 Locomobile at the Shuttleworth Collection-the only real downside to steam power is that if it decides to go ‘bang’ you are sitting on top of the bomb………

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[joe and sue]

The alternative back then was very inefficient i/c engines-or steam. Steam powered vehicles were rather like the electric cars of today in that they were clean and silent and the 0-30 performance was impressive. I am currently rebuilding the 1900 Locomobile at the Shuttleworth Collection-the only real downside to steam power is that if it decides to go ‘bang’ you are sitting on top of the bomb………

Sort of like a petrol tank then ??

 

[Coolcats]

Fleet trucks can fill up at depots. Trucks need very few filling stations. Just because trucks get hydrogen options, it doesn't mean it'll be viable for panel vans. Until it becomes practical for panel vans to use hydrogen, manufacturers will be reluctant to make them. Especially as they are already invested in making battery variants.

Large motorhomes are not going to be practical on batteries. There's not enough demand for manufacturers to make hydrogen powered base vehicles. I'm getting a feeling that MoHos are going to go extinct.

​

First-ever hydrogen-powered van launched for commercial use with 249-mile range​

Hydrogen-powered Renault Master Van confirmed for 2022 launch​

 

[TOT]

As someone who used to work for satans outfit, EV vans are here - and from experience I am sure there will be a race between the big outfits to get hold of them asap - so you may have a long wait to get yer mitts on an equivalent Moho.

I always expected big distributors to change all their fork lift ops to Hydrogen - but now seeing a reversal by them back to Electric.

 

[Gromett]

so that 1 kg of Hydrogen is expected to be £0.75p

Is expected, but no route is given to that price.

JCB are converting the ICE engines in diggers etc to run on Hydrogen, there is a good video on You Tube ,[[jcb hydrogen engine how it works]] it is well worth watching.

So no fuel cell and complicated electronics, just a good old ICE engine working on a different fuel, with only water coming out of the exhaust. Plus the price of Hydrogen if mass produced will probably drop.

I see this as a poor option to be honest. Hydrogen burnt at it's most efficient mix will not only burn too hot for the engine to survive but will release loads of NOx. So they will burn hydrogen at a less efficient mix to keep the NOx emissions down and the heat to a manageable level. Meaning you actually need a lot more of it. Hydrogen may have a high energy value by weight but it is relatively poor by volume.

A few have mentioned how cheap an EV is to run but there is little mention of the replacement battery costs,

Well built EV's expect the battery to last the lifetime of the car. It is only crappy built cars that this will be an issue with. Those poor models will very quickly be found out and people will stop buying them. Most new Ev's come with a 100,000 Mile or 8 year warranty anyway.

These EVs are totally useless in cold environments & we live in Scotland! Completely impractical for us at present…not fit for purpose & that’s just the cars!

Tell that to Norway.

EVs having to travel up to 70k miles to reclaim the Co2 emitted during manufacture.

That has been debunked multiple times, I wish people would stop repeating fossil fuel industry propaganda.

 

[Two on Tour]

What do you make of this then ?

Isle of Wight: Council's electric vehicle chargers hacked to show porn site

Isle of Wight Council says staff are covering up the "inappropriate" website showing on the screen.

www.bbc.co.uk

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[CazPaul]

Is expected, but no route is given to that price.


I see this as a poor option to be honest. Hydrogen burnt at it's most efficient mix will not only burn too hot for the engine to survive but will release loads of NOx. So they will burn hydrogen at a less efficient mix to keep the NOx emissions down and the heat to a manageable level. Meaning you actually need a lot more of it. Hydrogen may have a high energy value by weight but it is relatively poor by volume.


Well built EV's expect the battery to last the lifetime of the car. It is only crappy built cars that this will be an issue with. Those poor models will very quickly be found out and people will stop buying them. Most new Ev's come with a 100,000 Mile or 8 year warranty anyway.


Tell that to Norway.




That has been debunked multiple times, I wish people would stop repeating fossil fuel industry propaganda.

It worries me the people I know who can only afford 20-25 year old cars for work etc, these people will still exist in 2035 onwards so what will they be able to afford. They run old diesels at the minute, Yaris 1.4 D etc, service themselves for a few quid.
What are they going to do in say 2050 when the next generation who can only afford to pay a few hundred quid for a car for work do?

What will a 20-25 electric vehicle cost and will the batteries be any good.

 

[Gromett]

It worries me the people I know who can only afford 20-25 year old cars for work etc, these people will still exist in 2035 onwards so what will they be able to afford. They run old diesels at the minute, Yaris 1.4 D etc, service themselves for a few quid.
What are they going to do in say 2050 when the next generation who can only afford to pay a few hundred quid for a car for work do?

What will a 20-25 electric vehicle cost and will the batteries be any good.

The second hand market will develop the same as the ICE market's did.

In the not too distant future there will be third party companies offering battery refurb services. Others offering third party batteries and everything in between. 2nd hand batteries will be worth quite a bit of money.

 

[CazPaul]

The second hand market will develop the same as the ICE market's did.

In the not too distant future there will be third party companies offering battery refurb services. Others offering third party batteries and everything in between. 2nd hand batteries will be worth quite a bit of money.

So you will be able to buy a decent reliable electric vehicle for £150-£200 then like you can today?

 

[Gromett]

So you will be able to buy a decent reliable electric vehicle for £150-£200 then like you can today?

 

[CazPaul]

I don’t believe you are right, it’s ok you saying a generalised statement the second hand market will sort itself out, that’s politician claptrap
People paying £100 etc for cars today that with a bit of work are perfectly good cars.

Someone I work with she paid £70, she’s a good care worker, her dad did a bit of work on it with a few parts he bought for another £70 and she’s a decent reliable car.

That’s the people who will suffer.

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[Neil S]

Would you want to buy a second hand battery car at 7 years of age even if its low mileage , knowing the battery warranty is nearly expired ? I certainly wouldn't take the risk
I've just recently bought a 7 year old petrol Skoda Fabia TSI with only 28,000 miles full Skoda service history and in immaculate condition both inside and out .
Now it will run for at least another 10 years + as we only do 4-5k per annum
Being VW/Audi engined there reliable and even if it does break down it wont cost an arm and a leg to fix .

 

[63720]

That has been debunked multiple times, I wish people would stop repeating fossil fuel industry propaganda.

Volvo says electric car making emissions are 70% HIGHER than petrol

Volvo said the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint during 'use phase' and if clean energy was used things would improve.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

 

[Gromett]

Volvo says electric car making emissions are 70% HIGHER than petrol

Volvo said the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint during 'use phase' and if clean energy was used things would improve.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Yup that is the one that got debunked.

 

[tonyidle]

I really do hope you are correct. The EV lovers will certainly be against this but hopefully we will have an option, battery or hydrogen power. This would keep most of us happy.
My hobby is motorcycling. If the only option was a battery bike I would in all probability give up riding. If there is the option of a hydrogen powered bike I would continue to ride.

Where would you put the fuel cell? And batteries?

 

[Gromett]

Volvo says electric car making emissions are 70% HIGHER than petrol

Volvo said the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint during 'use phase' and if clean energy was used things would improve.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Both The Markit and Argonne/Reuters study came up with 15,000 to 20,000 depending on country. This was well to wheel. Both were very well covered reports with pretty comprehensive models.

For example the volvo study did a well to wheel for the EV but did a pump to wheel for the ICE. The ICE didn't cover things like emissions from drilling, transport and processing etc. There were other major problems with the report such as them using the WLTP efficiency rating for the ICE giving it a much better mpg than it actually has in real world usage. I could go on but my memory of the rest of the points are getting hazy as it was quite some time ago.

There was also the sourcing of the report and funding for it, but I can't remember off the top of my head what the issue was but it was something to do with financial interests of those funding the report.

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[Guigsy]

​

First-ever hydrogen-powered van launched for commercial use with 249-mile range​

Hydrogen-powered Renault Master Van confirmed for 2022 launch​

That is more advanced that I thought it was. Although Renault don't seem particularly committed when it's basically their full battery van, but with a hydrogen fuel cell generator. It's going to be expensive!

I guess the next question is, will there be enough demand for these vans for there to be pumps installed? There's currently only 15 in the whole of the UK.

 

[63720]

Both The Markit and Argonne/Reuters study came up with 15,000 to 20,000 depending on country. This was well to wheel. Both were very well covered reports with pretty comprehensive models.

For example the volvo study did a well to wheel for the EV but did a pump to wheel for the ICE. The ICE didn't cover things like emissions from drilling, transport and processing etc. There were other major problems with the report such as them using the WLTP efficiency rating for the ICE giving it a much better mpg than it actually has in real world usage. I could go on but my memory of the rest of the points are getting hazy as it was quite some time ago.

There was also the sourcing of the report and funding for it, but I can't remember off the top of my head what the issue was but it was something to do with financial interests of those funding the report.

....sourcing of the report, funding and financial interests.... that's cleared that up then.

 

[Andy_Elddis125]

The elephant in the room is that we have become profligate and addicted to cheap energy - not paying the full price for the enviromental costs (both environmental damage during extraction and emmisions during use).
We seem to want, and most big business wants us to continue as before but just switching to electricity. Our lifestyles need to change but no politician dares to tell us.

Cars have got bigger and heavier over the last 50 years - you don't need to take 2 tonnes of metal with you to the shops. Manufacturers are offering us EV SUVs. A lighter EV would have a much longer range for the same charging time.

Even MHs have got a lot bigger and heavier.

We need to think differently rather than trying to just replicate what we have with a different source of energy.
Battery technology will improve but lightweight materials are also needed. Reduce the number of vehicles, for example car sharing could offer a vehicle for the requiremnent at the time - a small single seater to a large van at lower cost as it is not sitting depreciating most of the time.

 

[nev robinson]

I understand your point re the improvements in technology . The improvements came about because of competition though. With the banning of ICE vehicles the competition is effectively eliminated leaving electric car makers with no incentive or need to develop their product as there will be nothing for it to compete with. The cost of these vehicles is exactly the same. The manufacturers of electric cars won’t need to compete on price as the competition is being banned. Why should they bring their prices down when we will have no choice if we want to stay on the road?

It won’t happen in my lifetime,if you are heading to south of UK you have plenty of chargers totally different here in Yorkshire.

 

[nev robinson]

The elephant in the room is that we have become profligate and addicted to cheap energy - not paying the full price for the enviromental costs (both environmental damage during extraction and emmisions during use).
We seem to want, and most big business wants us to continue as before but just switching to electricity. Our lifestyles need to change but no politician dares to tell us.

Cars have got bigger and heavier over the last 50 years - you don't need to take 2 tonnes of metal with you to the shops. Manufacturers are offering us EV SUVs. A lighter EV would have a much longer range for the same charging time.

Even MHs have got a lot bigger and heavier.

We need to think differently rather than trying to just replicate what we have with a different source of energy.
Battery technology will improve but lightweight materials are also needed. Reduce the number of vehicles, for example car sharing could offer a vehicle for the requiremnent at the time - a small single seater to a large van at lower cost as it is not sitting depreciating most of the time.

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[nev robinson]

When I was 17 I had a Bubble Car maybe I should have kept it.lol

 

[huck999]

Not much use in EU anyway - most sites only have 6A supplies and I doubt if they will add charging points anytime soon.

 

[Coolcats]

That is more advanced that I thought it was. Although Renault don't seem particularly committed when it's basically their full battery van, but with a hydrogen fuel cell generator. It's going to be expensive!

I guess the next question is, will there be enough demand for these vans for there to be pumps installed? There's currently only 15 in the whole of the UK.

It is but early days, here is another one Kawasaki Hydrogen Road and how about

Yamaha’s latest hydrogen engine paves the way for new breed of bikes: Kawasaki also revealed that they’re developing hydrogen fuel technology for internal combustion engines – showing a version of the H2’s supercharged four-cylinder fitted with direct fuel injection, which is a steppingstone towards a hydrogen fuelled version.​

Now there will be those on here who will knock the application of Hydrogen in an ICE engine however what if, just what if this technology could be applied and retrofitted to our Motorhome's and other vehicles......Now that would be a game changer

 

[Gromett]

....sourcing of the report, funding and financial interests.... that's cleared that up then.

So you picked up on that bit but skipped the rest? So I just did a very quick google for you to help you out.

The Reuters/Argonne release if you are interested.

When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?

You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3, satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet.

www.reuters.com

The AstonGate funding controversy and faults.

Astongate: fake emission figures, an embattled carmaker and a sock puppet PR company

You may have seen the news story last week about a new report purporting to show that it takes 50,000 miles before an EV's emissions beat those of a petrol car. First of all, the figures were comprehensively debunked - the correct figure is nearer 16,000 miles - then, over the weekend I uncovered ev

www.linkedin.com

A write up about the work that Auke Hoekstra did on the Volvo story.

Study Against EVs Backed By Legacy Automakers Is Debunked In Epic Way

A study that claimed EVs need 78,000 km (49,000 mi) to break even with ICE cars in carbon emissions was debunked in an epic way. And there was more…

insideevs.com

Oh and if you want the Auke Hoekstra details, he is a guy that specialises in this stuff.
He researches electric vehicles and clean energy at the Univerity of Eindhoven and Neon Research.
Here is his twitter coverage of the "scandal" ( You will need to click to read the whole thread)


A Forbes article covering it.

Don’t Fall For The Myth That Internal Combustion Cars Are Greener Than Batteries Over Their Life - They’re Not

The oil and gas industry has tried to paint battery electric vehicles as more polluting over their lifetime than internal combustion, but that's not true wherever in the world you live.

www.forbes.com

The Irish Times comes from a slightly different angle.

Electric cars may be even cleaner than makers claim

Study suggesting EVs need 77,000km on clock to be ‘greener’ than conventional car debunked

www.irishtimes.com

Hope this all helps and my 15 minutes of googling is of some assistance to clearing this up for you

 

[Gromett]

Now there will be those on here who will knock the application of Hydrogen in an ICE engine however what if, just what if this technology could be applied and retrofitted to our Motorhome's and other vehicles......Now that would be a game changer

Sorry but it just won't be a game changer. It will be expensive and I am not sure I want to be in a vehicle running on compressed/chilled hydrogen. A fuel cell vehicle I can just about imagine but not one that actually burns hydrogen...

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