Is the EV motorhome starting to look to be a viable prospect ?

[Guigsy]

As Gromett said earlier, burning hydrogen is far from ideal. Petrol derived engines can be quite heavily modified to work on hydrogen. A diesel engine is far too high compression though. Much like trying to use petrol in a diesel engine, you'd end up pre-detonation and you'd get to meet Rodney and his mates pretty quickly. So you'd an engine and transmission swap to even begin. May as well go to fuel cells at that point.

 

[Coolcats]

When I was 17 I had a Bubble Car maybe I should have kept it.lol

One of these is worth £36K
And this bubble car £44K
Or a modern version is the renault Twizzy for £11K

 

[Coolcats]

Sorry but it just won't be a game changer. It will be expensive and I am not sure I want to be in a vehicle running on compressed/chilled hydrogen. A fuel cell vehicle I can just about imagine but not one that actually burns hydrogen...

From Imagination to reality Gromett, I dunno what can you do with these pesky engineers and Scientists, you just have to love them

 

[Gromett]

From Imagination to reality Gromett, I dunno what can you do with these pesky engineers and Scientists, you just have to love them

I never said it can't be done... You are changing the subject again to avoid what I actually said.

 

[Guigsy]

I never said it can't be done... You are changing the subject again to avoid what I actually said.

BMW modified an engine in the 7 series to run on hydrogen over a decade ago. It's not that hard to do. It's that it still produces NOx emissions so needs emissions controls, and is less powerful than when running on petrol and isn't very efficient.

BMW Hydrogen 7 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hydrogen already has an efficiency issue with its generation. Burning it in a combustion makes it worse. You'd get much better mileage from a fuel cell.

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[Coolcats]

I never said it can't be done... You are changing the subject again to avoid what I actually said.
Gromett said:
A fuel cell vehicle I can just about imagine but not one that actually burns hydrogen...

I thought I was being helpful showing that an ice engine can actually burn Hydrogen

 

[Gromett]

I thought I was being helpful showing that an ice engine can actually burn Hydrogen

I knew they could. We have discussed this previously.

 

[Trout bum]

Total waste of time and investment how will they dispose of the battery at end of life , motorhome Diesel engines should be modified for hydrogen , lorries and buses are already running in Sweden, JCB are successfully trailing several models of their excavators ,using same Diesel engines with modifications ,same performance and same working hours no charging , this is the way for Diesel engines vehicles oh and the only emissions from the exhaust is water.

 

[Guigsy]

Total waste of time and investment how will they dispose of the battery at end of life , motorhome Diesel engines should be modified for hydrogen , lorries and buses are already running in Sweden, JCB are successfully trailing several models of their excavators ,using same Diesel engines with modifications ,same performance and same working hours no charging , this is the way for Diesel engines vehicles oh and the only emissions from the exhaust is water.

Burning hydrogen is a lot less energy efficient than using it in a fuel cell. The changes required to convert a diesel engine are quiet significant as the compression ratio needs changing to prevent detonation. And spark plugs are required. And although burning the hydrogen does only produce water, air is 80% nitrogen and at the temperatures reached, enough gets turned into NOxes to require additional catalytic convertors designed to work with hydrogen burning engines.

And it turns out that lithium ion batteries are pretty good for re-use long after the life of the vehicle for stuff like energy storage batteries where 80% capacity is still plenty. And even later they are also still pretty good for recycling. Much of the content can go into new batteries without any loss in their quality.

 

[Coolcats]

I knew they could. We have discussed this previously.

Fair enough but Hydrogen must be seen as a future option by these Global Corporates as a Viable power source or they would not be pouring money in to the products and either planning or bringing new products to the Market place.

Whilst I accept you feel everyone has got it wrong about Hydrogen, Daimler, Toyota, MAN, Kawasaki, Renault, Peagot, Caterpillar BP are all investing in a Hydrogen future as part of their green strategy.

In this Kawasaki Screen Grab it shows how excess power generation could be used to generate Hydrogen from Renewables

BP state

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[Gromett]

Fair enough but Hydrogen must be seen as a future option by these Global Corporates as a Viable power source or they would not be pouring money in to the products and either planning or bringing new products to the Market place.

Whilst I accept you feel everyone has got it wrong about Hydrogen, Daimler, Toyota, MAN, Kawasaki, Renault, Peagot, Caterpillar BP are all investing in a Hydrogen future as part of their green strategy.

In this Kawasaki Screen Grab it shows how excess power generation could be used to generate Hydrogen from Renewables

You know what ALL those companies have in common? Stranded assets when fossil fuels come to an end. The car companies have engine manufacturing plants and staff with a lot of value in them. If they can get the government to fund a roll out of hydrogen they can keep making money or at least get some of the pork while the government is handing it out. BP and other fossil fuel companies need hydrogen to be a part of the mix so they can sell their blue hydrogen and keep the government investing. They will never move across to green hydrogen and we should all just wait for the first CO2 gas leak from one of these CCS systems...

You don't listen to a fizzy drink company when it comes to healthy eating, or the tobacco companies when it comes to the safety of smoking. Why would you listen to engine companies and fossil fuel companies when it comes to government subsidies for hydrogen?

I agree that excess renewables should be used to generate hydrogen. But that hydrogen should go to replace existing black/grey hydrogen. Use it to make ammonia for fertilisers, into steel and cement plants to reduce their CO2 output. That will suck up most of any excess capacity from the electric system for the forseeable future without even looking at transport.

 

[Coolcats]

You know what ALL those companies have in common? Stranded assets when fossil fuels come to an end. The car companies have engine manufacturing plants and staff with a lot of value in them. If they can get the government to fund a roll out of hydrogen they can keep making money or at least get some of the pork while the government is handing it out. BP and other fossil fuel companies need hydrogen to be a part of the mix so they can sell their blue hydrogen and keep the government investing. They will never move across to green hydrogen and we should all just wait for the first CO2 gas leak from one of these CCS systems...

You don't listen to a fizzy drink company when it comes to healthy eating, or the tobacco companies when it comes to the safety of smoking. Why would you listen to engine companies and fossil fuel companies when it comes to government subsidies for hydrogen?

I agree that excess renewables should be used to generate hydrogen. But that hydrogen should go to replace existing black/grey hydrogen. Use it to make ammonia for fertilisers, into steel and cement plants to reduce their CO2 output. That will suck up most of any excess capacity from the electric system for the forseeable future without even looking at transport.

Which is why I did not post the the Blue side of both Kawasaki and BP only the Green side. Just to add to this Gromett the Data industry Every industry is responsible for Carbon emissions including the one you are in not just the obvious Automotive sector.

In 2016, it was reported that the world’s data centres used more than Britain’s total electricity consumption - 416.2 terawatt hours, significantly higher than the UK’s 300 terawatt hours. At three percent of the global electricity supply and accounting for about two percent of total greenhouse gas emissions, data centres have the same carbon footprint as the aviation industry. Recent predictions state that the energy consumption of data centres is set to account for 3.2 percent of the total worldwide carbon emissions by 2025 and they could consume no less than a fifth of global electricity. By 2040, storing digital data is set to create 14 percent of the world’s emissions, around the same proportion as the US does today.

 

[The Wino]

Which is why I did not post the the Blue side of both Kawasaki and BP only the Green side. Just to add to this Gromett the Data industry Every industry is responsible for Carbon emissions including the one you are in not just the obvious Automotive sector.

In 2016, it was reported that the world’s data centres used more than Britain’s total electricity consumption - 416.2 terawatt hours, significantly higher than the UK’s 300 terawatt hours. At three percent of the global electricity supply and accounting for about two percent of total greenhouse gas emissions, data centres have the same carbon footprint as the aviation industry. Recent predictions state that the energy consumption of data centres is set to account for 3.2 percent of the total worldwide carbon emissions by 2025 and they could consume no less than a fifth of global electricity. By 2040, storing digital data is set to create 14 percent of the world’s emissions, around the same proportion as the US does today.

I heard that Iceland is a major centre for data storage as they have endless geothermal energy and cooling available. It could well be that rising energy costs move more storage there.

 

[Gromett]

Which is why I did not post the the Blue side of both Kawasaki and BP only the Green side. Just to add to this Gromett the Data industry Every industry is responsible for Carbon emissions including the one you are in not just the obvious Automotive sector.

BP are hedging their bets. They are doing green, blue and wind power. They know fossil is dead so they are using their vast profits to diversify as fast as possible. That doesn't mean all their hedges are good ideas.

In 2016, it was reported that the world’s data centres used more than Britain’s total electricity consumption - 416.2 terawatt hours, significantly higher than the UK’s 300 terawatt hours. At three percent of the global electricity supply and accounting for about two percent of total greenhouse gas emissions, data centres have the same carbon footprint as the aviation industry. Recent predictions state that the energy consumption of data centres is set to account for 3.2 percent of the total worldwide carbon emissions by 2025 and they could consume no less than a fifth of global electricity. By 2040, storing digital data is set to create 14 percent of the world’s emissions, around the same proportion as the US does today.

There you go, off on another tangent. Change the subject to avoid the points previously made?

 

[AndyPK]

There you go, off on another tangent. Change the subject to avoid the points previously made?

Or perhaps you are wanting to ignore this ‘inconvenient truth’…….?

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[Wack]

When’s the ban on new ICE vehicles 2030
That’s 8 years away
A lot can happen between now and then

With the way electricity costs and demand are rising there's no way they're going to be ready for millions of electric cars unless they start pumping money into nuclear from today

The British government only thinks short term , look at the fiasco hs2 is turning into , by the time it's finished the self driving car will be commonplace , door to door service not station to station

 

[Gromett]

Or perhaps you are wanting to ignore this ‘inconvenient truth’…….?

No, he was talking about hydrogen being the perfect solution, I was responding to that. Then all of a sudden he moves to electric consumption totally changing the subject. He does this all the time. Never acknowledges previous rebuttals to his statements and tries to change the subject.

 

[Coolcats]

BP are hedging their bets. They are doing green, blue and wind power. They know fossil is dead so they are using their vast profits to diversify as fast as possible. That doesn't mean all their hedges are good ideas.


There you go, off on another tangent. Change the subject to avoid the points previously made?

Ok what would you do if your business is under threat? You diversify Nokia was and is an example of this so is research I’m motion (BlackBerry) BT and other telcos revenue streams was based on voice calls they knew decades ago that dial tone and the revenues would stop ( they were a driving force behind this) so they diversify in to a sales and marketing organisation based on Data and media.

No I am not going off on a tangent fossil fuels will end and every sector is affected a mix of energy sources is a good thing all I did was point out how much resource the data industry uses and it would benefit from a step change as well.

Staying on point what if your MoHo engine (and other vehicles) could be modified to run on Hydrogen even if it was £5k-£10k I suspect there would be a lot of takers. Clearly from the video this is exactly what Toyota/Yamaha have done

 

[Gromett]

Ok what would you do if your business is under threat? You diversify Nokia was and is an example of this so is research I’m motion (BlackBerry) BT and other telcos revenue streams was based on voice calls they knew decades ago that dial tone and the revenues would stop ( they were a driving force behind this) so they diversify in to a sales and marketing organisation based on Data and media.

I am not saying they are wrong to diversify. But you cannot claim that they are unbiased in their view on hydrogen... They have big skin in the game so using them as proof of anything on this front is as I said as bad as trusting tobacco companies on the safety of cigarettes.

No I am not going off on a tangent fossil fuels will end and every sector is affected a mix of energy sources is a good thing all I did was point out how much resource the data industry uses and it would benefit from a step change as well.

YES you are going off on a tangent. We were discussing hydrogen. You didn't respond to my previous response to you, but just changed the subject.

Staying on point what if your MoHo engine (and other vehicles) could be modified to run on Hydrogen even if it was £5k-£10k I suspect there would be a lot of takers. Clearly from the video this is exactly what Toyota/Yamaha have done

I suspect if there was enough hydrogen pumps around and the hydrogen was cheap then yes, there may be a market.
BUT if you can spend the same £5k-£10k and get it converted to battery which will always have more filling/charging points than hydrogen and will always be cheaper than hydrogen I suspect most people would go for battery conversions.

 

[Gromett]

Coolcats On datacentres. You don't know how much work goes into reducing electric usage at data centres. It is top of the list of priorities believe it or not as it is the most expensive running cost of a data centre.

Everything from virtualisation so you can run 1 server where you were previously running 5. To moving data centres to cold countries so you can reduce airconditioning costs. To replacing 2 year old hardware that cost millions with a new set of system because they use half the power.
I am sorry but you probably don't know even a fraction of the story on data centres.

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[Gromett]

Coolcats you may find this interesting.

https://pixl8-cloud-techuk.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod/public/04020e61-9ad8-4c6e-bcf0e2c2a5b63f59/Data-Centres-and-Power-2013.pdf

 

[Coolcats]

I am not saying they are wrong to diversify. But you cannot claim that they are unbiased in their view on hydrogen... They have big skin in the game so using them as proof of anything on this front is as I said as bad as trusting tobacco companies on the safety of cigarettes.

Interesting comment and has truth in it, but that does not mean Green Hydrogen will not support our future energy needs but just like the link you sent me which is an industry published / funded document there is Bias in that as well. We are all Biased no one or company is unbiased as that would be a Chimera a mythical beast.....

YES you are going off on a tangent. We were discussing hydrogen. You didn't respond to my previous response to you, but just changed the subject.

We can agree to differ, Green Hydrogen has a place in the future energy mix once being produced in large quantities and available there will be a demand for it such as standby generators for those data centres (virtualised or un-virtualised) or it may be Batteries but that is one heck of a lot of batteries for a Data centre.

I suspect if there was enough hydrogen pumps around and the hydrogen was cheap then yes, there may be a market.
BUT if you can spend the same £5k-£10k and get it converted to battery which will always have more filling/charging points than hydrogen and will always be cheaper than hydrogen I suspect most people would go for battery conversions.

The Market will evolve and today 90-100 Miles on a delivery van or ladened Motorhome or 300 Miles on Hydrogen the choice (which is the key element) will be yours in addition to the Battery conversion you would have to add the Suspension upgrade and new transmission where as an engine conversion and tank replacement along with an eco means that for those MoHo at 3.5t will remain the same whereas adding batteries etc will probably mean a plate change. Everyone is different and the choice to do so will be with the individual.

So there we have it Gromett we can agree to disagree

 

[Coolcats]

Coolcats On datacentres. You don't know how much work goes into reducing electric usage at data centres. It is top of the list of priorities believe it or not as it is the most expensive running cost of a data centre.

Everything from virtualisation so you can run 1 server where you were previously running 5. To moving data centres to cold countries so you can reduce airconditioning costs. To replacing 2 year old hardware that cost millions with a new set of system because they use half the power.
I am sorry but you probably don't know even a fraction of the story on data centres.

You assume I do not Gromett but I think you may find I do and have done for a few decades, It's not just data centres it's also the whole IT industry, I am not telling you my story but have depth in the IT industry, but I would rather do other things now, so its good sport exchanging views.

Edited to say there are probably lots of people on here both from the IT world and energy sectors with a breadth and depth of experience who also understand this as well (should include accountants as they see the bills)

 

[Coolcats]

As Gromett said earlier, burning hydrogen is far from ideal. Petrol derived engines can be quite heavily modified to work on hydrogen. A diesel engine is far too high compression though. Much like trying to use petrol in a diesel engine, you'd end up pre-detonation and you'd get to meet Rodney and his mates pretty quickly. So you'd an engine and transmission swap to even begin. May as well go to fuel cells at that point.

Never say never which is what Toyota and Yamaha have done, I have a little 1800cc Rover K series it has a different crank bearings, piston rods, valves valve seats and guided dry sump and a host of other mods such as the induction injectors ecu etc so it can go over 8000 rpm. It is durable and many different components to a standard K series. The cost was around £12K when it was new. What I am saying here is that with the right modification I can’t see why am I’ve engine petrol or diesel cannot be changed for some thug such as Hydrogen or a Hybrid fuel after all thee have been lpg conversions in the past Hydrogen is just another energy source.

 

[Guigsy]

Never say never which is what Toyota and Yamaha have done, I have a little 1800cc Rover K series it has a different crank bearings, piston rods, valves valve seats and guided dry sump and a host of other mods such as the induction injectors ecu etc so it can go over 8000 rpm. It is durable and many different components to a standard K series. The cost was around £12K when it was new. What I am saying here is that with the right modification I can’t see why am I’ve engine petrol or diesel cannot be changed for some thug such as Hydrogen or a Hybrid fuel after all thee have been lpg conversions in the past Hydrogen is just another energy source.

Diesels are compression ignition engines. Petrol, hydrogen and LPG need spark ignition. To modify a diesel, you'd need a completely new head to fit the spark plugs, some changes in the pistons to reduce the cylinder compression ratio, different turbo behaviour, different emissions gear and a different gearbox to work with the higher rev range. Basically everything in the drivetrain needs to change.

Petrol engines can be modified to work with hydrogen as they are more similar. But the differences in the way the fuel burns (faster and hotter, but not as much total energy) means even then, quite a lot of changes are required to make it work reliably.

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[Coolcats]

Diesels are compression ignition engines. Petrol, hydrogen and LPG need spark ignition. To modify a diesel, you'd need a completely new head to fit the spark plugs, some changes in the pistons to reduce the cylinder compression ratio, different turbo behaviour, different emissions gear and a different gearbox to work with the higher rev range. Basically everything in the drivetrain needs to change.

Petrol engines can be modified to work with hydrogen as they are more similar. But the differences in the way the fuel burns (faster and hotter, but not as much total energy) means even then, quite a lot of changes are required to make it work reliably.

yes I understand the differences between Diesel and petrol engines, however don't let people tell you that it is not possible for a diesel engine to run on Hydrogen, there are two ways to do this one is Hybrid Diesel / Hydrogen and just using Hydrogen, and the next point is "Using and adapting established engine technology with readily available components, hydrogen is combusted and power is delivered in exactly the same way as a diesel engine".


JCB is investing £100 million on a project to produce super-efficient hydrogen engines, the company announced today (October 2021).

"A team of 100 engineers is already working on the exciting development with the recruitment of up to 50 more engineers under way as JCB targets the end of 2022 for the first machines to be available for sale to customers.

The wraps have already come off a prototype hydrogen powered JCB backhoe loader and a second JCB machine - a Loadall telescopic handler - was unveiled at a central London event attended by Prime Minister Boris Johnson. JCB is world market leader for both backhoe loaders and telescopic handlers.

JCB’s hydrogen technology will be next on show in the Green Zone at COP26 in Glasgow as world leaders debate measures to drastically reduce greenhouse emissions. JCB’s emergence as a leader in zero-emission hydrogen technology comes as governments around the world unveil strategies to develop the infrastructure needed to support the use of hydrogen to drive down CO2 emissions".

They go on to add

"JCB is one of the first agricultural engine makers to successfully modify its conventional powerplants to run on compressed hydrogen, eliminating carbon emissions without any impact on performance.

Its gas-fired, four-cylinder, 4.8-litre motor develops the same power and torque as a Dieselmax 448 equivalent, the hardware is expected to cost no more and, with a bit of jiggery-pokery, it can be retrofitted to an existing machine.

Though still in the development stage, JCB expects to have the engine ready for pre-production by the end of 2022 – just two-and-a-half years after a 100-strong team of engineers set to work on the project."


Just who cool is that, and again it means vehicles would be able to extend thier working life if converted

 

[Coolcats]

Sorry but it just won't be a game changer. It will be expensive and I am not sure I want to be in a vehicle running on compressed/chilled hydrogen. A fuel cell vehicle I can just about imagine but not one that actually burns hydrogen...

Thought you may like to see what ZF is up to

BMW, ZF Supplier Aims to Convert Diesels into Hydrogen Fueled Power Plants​

All of which has the potential to be great news for MoHo owners

 

[Gromett]

Thought you may like to see what ZF is up to

BMW, ZF Supplier Aims to Convert Diesels into Hydrogen Fueled Power Plants​

All of which has the potential to be great news for MoHo owners

I still say no thanks. Hydrogen will always be more expensive than electric. And electric doesn't go boom. Sorry not for me. And after the first one does go boom I expect a lot of people to be put off too.

 

[joe and sue]

When’s the ban on new ICE vehicles 2030
That’s 8 years away
A lot can happen between now and then

Electric cars were in existence in the late 1800's / early 1900's, and they have still not been perfected, so what is going to happen in 8 years that has not been achieves in 120 years ????

 

[63720]

Electric cars were in existence in the late 1800's / early 1900's, and they have still not been perfected, so what is going to happen in 8 years that has not been achieves in 120 years ????

And they're still doing the same average speed across London

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