Interesting EV fuel cost example

[jongood]

Pay per mile wont touch the amount of losses the govt will incur in VED & Fuel duty/ taxes.
other ways will be introduced.
At the moment they have tackled the VED element(7 billion) by adding the over 40k new car supplement of £365 from 2025
then I think the £10.00 Co2 element is being added to all evs reg from 2018ish , then the standard yearly £165 will commence to replace the tax disc..

as for the lost fuel duty ???? almost 30 billion
well all sorts of things have been talked about from PPM to telematics (black boxes) to cameras, but seems that like Gromett and others said, mileage charge per user integrated into the already exisiting MOT system seems easiest, but how does that recoup all the current fuel duty tax of 30 billion ?
and is fuel duty then still applied at the same rate to exisitng pertoll and diesel users.

All I know is, I expect the cheap cost of running my EV days are over soon, once the shift starts.

Back to my V8 then

Depends how much per mile really, elite travel lanes looming

 

[Gromett]

Why all that and not just a smart meter in the car that uploads the data automatically?

Because that would require all cars to be upgraded at great cost who is going to pay? We can't even fit smart meters to all houses in a timely manner.
Because the public would hate a mechanism for the government to track their movements.

Those are the two main reasons. There are loads more.

 

[MichaelT]

Because that would require all cars to be upgraded at great cost who is going to pay? We can't even fit smart meters to all houses in a timely manner.
Because the public would hate a mechanism for the government to track their movements.

Those are the two main reasons. There are loads more.

But it would be part and parcel of the build conditions cars already collect all thus data so no big deal.

 

[Gromett]

But it would be part and parcel of the build conditions cars already collect all thus data so no big deal.

So what about all the EVs that are already on the road prior to the new legislation to force car manufacturers to do this?
How much is it going to cost for the massive IT project to manage this? Yup another government IT project.

You still don't explain how you will get past the goverment tracking concerns? There will be mass protests over that if the government can track your movements without a warrant.

 

[MichaelT]

So what about all the EVs that are already on the road prior to the new legislation to force car manufacturers to do this?
How much is it going to cost for the massive IT project to manage this? Yup another government IT project.

You still don't explain how you will get past the goverment tracking concerns? There will be mass protests over that if the government can track your movements without a warrant.

But that already can as cars store the data now plus ANPR.

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[Gromett]

But that already can as cars store the data now plus ANPR.

The government has no access to the data cars store without a warrant.
I do not see any ANPR cameras in my daily life. But once your idea is implemented the government would know exactly where I am at all times, where I am going and when.
I do NOT like that.

Do you trust the government not to abuse that information?

 

[MichaelT]

The government has no access to the data cars store without a warrant.
I do not see any ANPR cameras in my daily life. But once your idea is implemented the government would know exactly where I am at all times, where I am going and when.
I do NOT like that.

Do you trust the government not to abuse that information?

Calm down, they don't have to know where you are or have been only the number of miles covered then bill you, simples Failing that just get the data off your phone which tracks everywhere you go

 

[Gromett]

Calm down, they don't have to know where you are or have been only the number of miles covered then bill you, simples

I am calm. I am simply pointing out the argument against your method. The technology to measure miles needs to know where you are and where you end up. Do you trust the government if they say they won't track you. But they have the technology to do so?

Failing that just get the data off your phone which tracks everywhere you go

Nope. My phone doesn't track me. GPS and tracking are turned off. The government can with a warrant get the cell tower I am connected to. I am satisfied with the process where the government needs a judges permission to get that data. I wouldn't be happy with the government having tracking data on me on a minute by minute basis down to the meter. Even with GPS turned on the government has no access to that data without a warrant.



Please note. The arguments above are not my own. They are what a big chunk of the public will say.

My big problem with your solution is the cost and the fact there is a simpler way to do it using existing systems that avoids any possible public outcry over tracking.

You do remember the problems with ID cards don't you? How much worse do you think it will be if you add in the capability to track your movements minute by minute.

 

[MichaelT]

I am calm. I am simply pointing out the argument against your method. The technology to measure miles needs to know where you are and where you end up. Do you trust the government if they say they won't track you. But they have the technology to do so?



Nope. My phone doesn't track me. GPS and tracking are turned off. The government can with a warrant get the cell tower I am connected to. I am satisfied with the process where the government needs a judges permission to get that data. I wouldn't be happy with the government having tracking data on me on a minute by minute basis down to the meter. Even with GPS turned on the government has no access to that data without a warrant.



Please note. The arguments above are not my own. They are what a big chunk of the public will say.

My big problem with your solution is the cost and the fact there is a simpler way to do it using existing systems that avoids any possible public outcry over tracking.

You do remember the problems with ID cards don't you? How much worse do you think it will be if you add in the capability to track your movements minute by minute.

Whatever

 

[Coolcats]

So what about all the EVs that are already on the road prior to the new legislation to force car manufacturers to do this?
How much is it going to cost for the massive IT project to manage this? Yup another government IT project.

You still don't explain how you will get past the goverment tracking concerns? There will be mass protests over that if the government can track your movements without a warrant.

EV's already have over the air updates and bi directional comms with the manufacturer people who buy the beloved Tesla know this, in 2020 BMW sent out updates for over 750,000 cars, most manufactures can do this here is a 2017 Windriver pdf. In addition many drivers opt for Telematics insurance with provide insurance companies with real time diving habits. MichaelT is not wrong this would be easy to do, and as an IT Buff you should know that just the milage could be stripped out and shared with HMG its not a big IT job at all.

Drivers could be influenced to share their data by discounting road tax or by an energy rebate, there is quite a number of ways of doing this.

Regarding tracking I hope you have switched off your Bluetooth connectivity as well and disconnected from the wifi, I also think that you will find the government does not need a warrant to track but that is another discussion. on another link or site.

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[Gromett]

EV's already have over the air updates and bi directional comms with the manufacturer people who buy the beloved Tesla know this,

Not all cars have that capability even today.

. In addition many drivers opt for Telematics insurance with provide insurance companies with real time diving habits. MichaelT is not wrong this would be easy to do,

The telematics insurance requires an additional box adding at some cost to the driver.

and as an IT Buff you should know that just the milage could be stripped out and shared with HMG its not a big IT job at all.

My problem is not what they do initially it is what that electronic capability gives them. Remember the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) scandals. This was supposed to be used for serious criminal offenses but was used to track parents taking their kids to school amongst other things. Given the capability how long do you think it is before the government forces manufactures to remove the filter and give them live data for "safety reason".

Drivers could be influenced to share their data by discounting road tax or by an energy rebate, there is quite a number of ways of doing this.

If it is voluntary then it is not a revenue raising process. If the discount on road tax is not bigger than the cost of the mileage tax then no one will do it. This will result in only the people who save money by doing, doing it. Thus actually reducing revenue.

Regarding tracking I hope you have switched off your Bluetooth connectivity as well and disconnected from the wifi, I also think that you will find the government does not need a warrant to track but that is another discussion. on another link or site.

Phoey. Yes I have bluetooth turned off for security reason. No I don't disconnect from wifi as it is not routinely trackable. The phone does not act as a server only as a client. But that aside you are missing the point I think. This is not my argument it is the argument that will be used against the government and overreach. Currently the government has no way to routinely track me without a warrant. With this technology in the car they will have a means to routinely track people without a warrant. Perhaps initially they won't have the capability but once the technology is in place in every car then it is not a stretch to think the government will enable tracking for anti terrorism, crime prevention, public safety, speeding checks etc etc.

Anyway. Not my only argument against it.

 

[Gromett]

Council uses criminal law to spy on school place applicants

Poole Council admits using laws designed to track serious criminals to spy on a family for nearly three weeks

www.theguardian.com

 

[Coolcats]

Not all cars have that capability even today.

For someone in the IT business I am surprised by the negativity, of course not all vehicles on the road have OTA capability however this is a focus area for all EV manufactures, all EV’s will be updated OTA. im sure you are aware Business models are changing on how these vehicles are maintained and as they are more computer driven than steam it is a commercial imperative OTA is part of all new EV’s Business and customers will demand it. It also has the ability for new revenue streams or providing a competitive edge. For example Imagine having the sat nav updated regularly as a USP , you want more performance but les miles…there is a monthly option for that Sir.


You will find it will be the other way around you will struggle to find a EV manufacture who will not do OTA updates

The telematics insurance requires an additional box adding at some cost to the driver.

Not in every case there are at least three ways of doing this and again is voluntary to save money, also dont believe everything you read in the press

1. Black Box installed by the insurer
2. A device plugged in via the 12V socket
3. Downloadable mobile app such as the drive plus provided by Direct line

If it is voluntary then it is not a revenue raising process. If the discount on road tax is not bigger than the cost of the mileage tax then no one will do it. This will result in only the people who save money by doing, doing it. Thus actually reducing revenue.

People exchange personal data for using smart speakers, Google, facebook and the internet using bluetooth or some partners track each other and parents their kids. Companies see what films you download or watch. Companies gather data from smart meters, Banks track user spending and habits.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to allow a EV to show milage travelled and electricity consumed for billing purposes some will be more than happy to exchange this for a cheaper rate. You will often read on here people say 'they have nothing to hide' and would view sharing this milage / energy consumption data for discounted electricity as a benefit. You can pay monthly for Road tax or insurance at additional cost or a one off annual discounted rate.

What about loyalty or discount cards people use they are exchanging personal spending habits for data being collected, My Supermarket has data on me and my spending habits, I go on line and I see everything I buy saved as Favourites are you saying this is a bad thing?

So the voluntary part is sharing a subset of data in exchange for a cheaper rate, its the world we live in unless you use cash and live off grid and do not use the internet and do not have a NI number its impossible for data not to be collected about you.

 

[Gromett]

For someone in the IT business I am surprised by the negativity, of course not all vehicles on the road have OTA capability however this is a focus area for all EV manufactures, all EV’s will be updated OTA. im sure you are aware Business models are changing on how these vehicles are maintained and as they are more computer driven than steam it is a commercial imperative OTA is part of all new EV’s Business and customers will demand it. It also has the ability for new revenue streams or providing a competitive edge. For example Imagine having the sat nav updated regularly as a USP , you want more performance but les miles…there is a monthly option for that Sir.


You will find it will be the other way around you will struggle to find a EV manufacture who will not do OTA updates


Not in every case there are at least three ways of doing this and again is voluntary to save money, also dont believe everything you read in the press

1. Black Box installed by the insurer
2. A device plugged in via the 12V socket
3. Downloadable mobile app such as the drive plus provided by Direct line

People exchange personal data for using smart speakers, Google, facebook and the internet using bluetooth or some partners track each other and parents their kids. Companies see what films you download or watch. Companies gather data from smart meters, Banks track user spending and habits.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to allow a EV to show milage travelled and electricity consumed for billing purposes some will be more than happy to exchange this for a cheaper rate. You will often read on here people say 'they have nothing to hide' and would view sharing this milage / energy consumption data for discounted electricity as a benefit. You can pay monthly for Road tax or insurance at additional cost or a one off annual discounted rate.

What about loyalty or discount cards people use they are exchanging personal spending habits for data being collected, My Supermarket has data on me and my spending habits, I go on line and I see everything I buy saved as Favourites are you saying this is a bad thing?

So the voluntary part is sharing a subset of data in exchange for a cheaper rate, its the world we live in unless you use cash and live off grid and do not use the internet and do not have a NI number its impossible for data not to be collected about you.

Getting further and further away from the point. I am done.
1) There is a difference between willingly giving your information to a company in return for a service. VS the government forcing you to provide the data without a warrant.
2) OTA updates are the very reason why it is a bad idea to give the government even the small end of the wedge with respect to tracking. Your diversion on this topic missed the point I made that cars would have to be upgraded to make a tracking system work.
3) AGAIN, these are not my arguments. They are the arguments that will be used against ANY tracking tech forced on us by the government and will cause protests that will make the Poll tax riots seem like a street party.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I think if all new installations are smart, and all new EVs have bi-directional charging, they won't just be charging (sorry) people to use electricity, they'll be paying them to store it and not use it at peak times. If there's a high enough uptake that will be a huge boost to storage, with no massive infrastructure needed. Each EV stores about 50kWh, so 1000 EVs in a small town can store 50MWh, enough to really help smooth out the peaks.

The big questions:-

How long would that distributed storage system remain voluntary? We know that "emergency" has become a rather elastic concept. In newspeak, "emergency" translates as "for convenience".

In the long run, what will be the difference be between the tariff to charge your EV, and what the Grid pays you when it depletes your battery? You might get a small premium to persuade you to join. At some point, "bait and switch" will kick in.

Q2 might not matter so much to those with their own PV arrays, during sunnier months. What about winter when demand is at its peak?

[NB I suspect that one way or another, consumers who have invested heavily in an EV or big wall battery that is being used to balance the Grid or smooth peak demand, will probably end up subsidising domestic consumers who have neither.]

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[SpeedyDux]

Depends how much per mile really, elite travel lanes looming

Elite travel lanes in effect were brought in for the IOC and other VIPs during the London Olympics in 2012.

It is Scottish government policy to reduce car travel in Scotland by 20% below the 2019 level, between now and 2030. Because of climate change.

Please note that EVs are not exempt. That gives the game away. The long term goal is to ban all private vehicles. That is obvious. This is what happens when the Greens are part of a coalition. It could easily happen in England and Wales after the next GE if there is a hung parliament.

"Our national commitment to reduce car use deliberately includes all types of car, including electric vehicles, in recognition of the wider benefits of a society less-dominated by the movement and storage of private vehicles."

20% reduction in car km by 2030 | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

 

[Puddleduck]

I have a merc PHEV that suits me. My wife has a VW id3. Neither of which we could justify on cost grounds but we like nice things and can afford them.

Good for you. Your money, your choice.

If you are over the IHT threshold the govt will take 40% of anything over that so you may as well spend it and say "thanks" to the govt for the 40%!!!!!!!

 

[autorouter]

How long would that distributed storage system remain voluntary? We know that "emergency" has become a rather elastic concept. In newspeak, "emergency" translates as "for convenience".

There's no reason why you have to tell the utility company you have battery storage. You don't even need a smart meter, if you are up for switching the charging on and off manually. So if they want your cooperation they need to give you some incentive - tariff breaks at least, if not positive payments.

 

[SpeedyDux]

There's no reason why you have to tell the utility company you have battery storage. You don't even need a smart meter, if you are up for switching the charging on and off manually. So if they want your cooperation they need to give you some incentive - tariff breaks at least, if not positive payments.

Basically you are saying that as long as you can play the system you are OK. My prediction is that such schemes will be voluntary at first, with a small financial carrot to encourage volunteers and get the public to see this as the new normal, then eventually it becomes compulsory and the carrot will disappear. That prediction is based on my reading of the National Grid's Future Scenarios document, that anyone can download as a pdf. The key theme of NG's analysis is that, on our current trajectory, Net Zero 2050 is impossible. To achieve Net Zero 2050, there needs to be "consumer transformation" by compulsion. Smart meters are a key tool. One way or another we will have a choice either to live off-grid or have smart meters.

 

[Folkranger]

Good for you. Your money, your choice.

If you are over the IHT threshold the govt will take 40% of anything over that so you may as well spend it and say "thanks" to the govt for the 40%!!!!!!!

I think the house alone more than takes care of the IHT thresh. Better spend the rest.

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[Folkranger]

Did you know that more electricity is used to refine and pump enough petrol/diesel to drive a car 100 miles, than the amount of electricity it would take to drive a car 100 miles?

course you didn't, why would you

Yes. That's long been the theory.

 

[Coolcats]

Getting further and further away from the point. I am done.
1) There is a difference between willingly giving your information to a company in return for a service. VS the government forcing you to provide the data without a warrant.
2) OTA updates are the very reason why it is a bad idea to give the government even the small end of the wedge with respect to tracking. Your diversion on this topic missed the point I made that cars would have to be upgraded to make a tracking system work.
3) AGAIN, these are not my arguments. They are the arguments that will be used against ANY tracking tech forced on us by the government and will cause protests that will make the Poll tax riots seem like a street party.

Lol im more worried about the data companies such as Google and Amazon hold and how they use it rather than the government, we pay our tax's and NI, we have passports council tax, we have health records, we register our cars and vans, most pay online for road tax insurance companies have our details, energy companies know how much we consume, its easy to know what is spent via credit and debit cards where we have been and who we have been with we leak data. ANPR will flag up stollen vehicles. The insurance industry play a game when we buy or renew our insurance they have linked data across the industry do you really think the government does not have access to this.

So where are we in this debate.

All EV's will have OTA connectivity

How will the government collect tax's in place of the current fuel tax, probably pay by mile so that will be either by tracking via something like ANPR, OTA connectivity or as has been reasonably suggested at the point of filling. If Octopus and other companies can provide a rate for EV use it can be taxed Like VAT the corporate will be obliged to collect it on behalf of the government. There is no argument but just flexible thinking on what the future may hold.

 

[Puddleduck]

I think the house alone more than takes care of the IHT thresh. Better spend the rest.

Don't forget your property allowance .... all allowances could be doubled if you are married and in a civil partnership - if unsure then get professional advice.

​

What is charged (IHT) will be less if you leave behind your home to your direct descendants, such as children or grandchildren. This is because you will then have two tax-free allowances:

• £325,000 – this is the basic inheritance tax allowance, which still applies.
  
• £175,000 – since 2015 you've also been able to take advantage of something called the 'residence nil-rate band', commonly known as the 'main residence' band. This is an additional allowance you'll receive ON TOP of the existing £325,000 inheritance tax allowance if you pass on a main residence to your children or grandchildren.

This means inheritance tax might not be due on the first £500,000 of your estate (£325,000 + £175,000), depending on who you leave your home to. However:

• The £175,000 main residence allowance only applies if your estate is worth less than £2 million.
  
• On estates worth £2 million or more, the main residence allowance will decrease by £1 for every £2 above £2 million that the deceased's estate is worth.

 

[Coolcats]

Basically you are saying that as long as you can play the system you are OK. My prediction is that such schemes will be voluntary at first, with a small financial carrot to encourage volunteers and get the public to see this as the new normal, then eventually it becomes compulsory and the carrot will disappear. That prediction is based on my reading of the National Grid's Future Scenarios document, that anyone can download as a pdf. The key theme of NG's analysis is that, on our current trajectory, Net Zero 2050 is impossible. To achieve Net Zero 2050, there needs to be "consumer transformation" by compulsion. Smart meters are a key tool. One way or another we will have a choice either to live off-grid or have smart meters.

I heard this is all happening in California

Electricity companies get green light to charge rooftop solar owners for exporting power to grid​

personally I would either go for bigger battery storage or possibly use the excess to generate Hydrogen and use it in a Hydrogen Central Heating Boiler or a Hydrogen car

 

[Stroppy Bird]

I heard this is all happening in California

Electricity companies get green light to charge rooftop solar owners for exporting power to grid​

personally I would either go for bigger battery storage or possibly use the excess to generate Hydrogen and use it in a Hydrogen Central Heating Boiler or a Hydrogen car

It doesn't surprise me.

I wasn't able to have the (relatively small) system I originally wanted, or rather have it work the way I wanted, unless I paid for Western Power to upgrade their infrastructure that would be involved.

I have a 4.38 kW solar system that is limited to 3.68kW and I originally spec'd a Tesla Powerwall with backup power cut module (which cuts all outgoing power in the event of a power cut so it doesn't feed back to the grid). Western Power put such restrictions on that would mean I could not operate it in backup mode unless I paid to upgrade their infrastructure. So in the end I went for a cheaper battery that doesn't have the back up power cut function.

And I suspect, as the article linked to says, it's all down to the fact that the existing infrastructure was never designed to work in reverse.

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[Coolcats]

It doesn't surprise me.

I wasn't able to have the (relatively small) system I originally wanted, or rather have it work the way I wanted, unless I paid for Western Power to upgrade their infrastructure that would be involved.

I have a 4.38 kW solar system that is limited to 3.68kW and I originally spec'd a Tesla Powerwall with backup power cut module (which cuts all outgoing power in the event of a power cut so it doesn't feed back to the grid). Western Power put such restrictions on that would mean I could not operate it in backup mode unless I paid to upgrade their infrastructure. So in the end I went for a cheaper battery that doesn't have the back up power cut function.

And I suspect, as the article linked to says, it's all down to the fact that the existing infrastructure was never designed to work in reverse.

Sorry to hear your woes with western power, in someways I understand that a legacy network may have difficulty with lots of fees in from micro producers but this is probably more about them not being able to control the systems. Having said this the network share holders and companies have become very rich of what was once a state owned network they need to invest to allow a new way of electric generation and distribution rather than penalise some like yourself.

 

[Spriddler]

....... doubled if you are married and in a civil partnership - if unsure then get professional advice.

Or ask yourself if the car's nearly out of fuel every time you go to use it.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I heard this is all happening in California

Electricity companies get green light to charge rooftop solar owners for exporting power to grid​

personally I would either go for bigger battery storage or possibly use the excess to generate Hydrogen and use it in a Hydrogen Central Heating Boiler or a Hydrogen car

Talk about moving the goalposts. How those pay-back calculations became utterly futile.

Anyone who still trusts their energy suppliers' promises is going to get a reality check sooner or later. I fell out with EDF when they reneged on their 3 year price fix half way through, and that was nearly 20 years ago.

 

[funflair]

Don't forget your property allowance .... all allowances could be doubled if you are married and in a civil partnership - if unsure then get professional advice.

​

What is charged (IHT) will be less if you leave behind your home to your direct descendants, such as children or grandchildren. This is because you will then have two tax-free allowances:

• £325,000 – this is the basic inheritance tax allowance, which still applies.
• £175,000 – since 2015 you've also been able to take advantage of something called the 'residence nil-rate band', commonly known as the 'main residence' band. This is an additional allowance you'll receive ON TOP of the existing £325,000 inheritance tax allowance if you pass on a main residence to your children or grandchildren.

This means inheritance tax might not be due on the first £500,000 of your estate (£325,000 + £175,000), depending on who you leave your home to. However:

• The £175,000 main residence allowance only applies if your estate is worth less than £2 million.
• On estates worth £2 million or more, the main residence allowance will decrease by £1 for every £2 above £2 million that the deceased's estate is worth.

And if you are dealing with the affairs of somebody who has gone into a care home "residential nil-rate band" no longer applies but it is then called "downsizing allowance" and the numbers are exactly the same yes it's good to get professional advice but amazing how many don't actually know the rules.

 

[Gromett]

Lol im more worried about the data companies such as Google and Amazon hold

You have a choice there. With government you don't.
How will the government use the data? Not today but tomorrow or in 20 years time.

I will say it again. This is not my argument it is the argument that those who are anti government will use. If it is a Tory government then not doubt the far left will use it as a stick and raise all sorts of protests etc.

It is not a good idea to trust the government with any data unless it absolutely must have it. For instance for Taxes.

If there is a way to give them the information without tracking then it should be used.

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