Interesting EV fuel cost example

[SpeedyDux]

I have a Honda Jazz auto, paid £8,000 nearly 9 years ago, and it is as good now as when I bought it. Regularly does 48mpg, and more on a long run. It does everything I need a car to do.
I am not into gadgets, touch screen this, and app that. I don't care that it can't accelerate from 0 to 60 in the blink of an eye, I can only go as fast as the vehicle in front of me anyway. For my driving needs, I plop around £30 of petrol in the tank every couple of weeks or so. So why would I spend tens of thousands of pounds on an EV?

Craig

Duxette had a Jazz of similar age which never had any faults. If it had been an Auto model we would probably have kept it. We traded it in for a Mk4 Jazz hybrid because for health reasons I can no longer drive a manual car very far and needed something automatic and easy to drive. The hybrid Jazz does just that, and average mpg has increased from 52 to 76 mpg. Very pleased with it. The Honda e was far too expensive and only had 137 miles range compared against over 500 miles range for the Jazz. No contest.

 

[ROCHESB]

Duxette had a Jazz of similar age which never had any faults. If it had been an Auto model we would probably have kept it. We traded it in for a Mk4 Jazz hybrid because for health reasons I can no longer drive a manual car very far and needed something automatic and easy to drive. The hybrid Jazz does just that, and average mpg has increased from 52 to 76 mpg. Very pleased with it. The Honda e was far too expensive and only had 137 miles range compared against over 500 miles range for the Jazz. No contest.

We have a Jazz Hybrid too, I was looking for a small auto car last year. I didn't want a CVT or DSG auto and was struggling to find something that had a traditional torque converter gearbox. I was on the verge of giving up when I came across a review of the new Jazz. It drives like an EV but the range of 500+ miles between refuelling stops means no range anxiety for us.

 

[gus-lopez]

Dunno I'm not a marketing master...I just know the facts...like I said in the other thread..20miles per day in the UK is th average ev driver miles in 2022.

& that isn't going to balance the books using mileage charges instead of fuel duty

Each day almost 2 million barrels of oil are unsold thanks to EV transitionand that sjust at todays rates.

So why isn't the price of petrol & diesel far lower?

can get you penalty points and fines what makes a big distracting screen so great?

When hiring I always ask how to turn the screen off & if it cannot be done ask for a large rag to cover the shite with.

Moving a lot of a cars functionality to a screen makes sense.

apart from the fact that any touching of the sceen whilst moving is illegal.

But not as lucrative as pay per mile, mostly including higher charges for busy routes/peak times

but as above, not going to work on those who barely use a vehicle & should be using other means of transport.

Quite right, here in Morocco where motoring is basic and cheap EV s will have to be cheaper still before they will take them

& here where they can't even generate enough electricity in the summer months to supply the existing customers.

@MichaelT is not wrong this would be easy to do, and as an IT Buff you should know that just the milage could be stripped out and shared with HMG its not a big IT job at all.

& if you believe that they wouldn't dip there fingers in all the other info you must be dreaming.
they cannot help themselves. like kids in a sweet shop. They cannot be trusted. they should be hung from lamposts on a random name drawn basis.

Drivers could be influenced to share their data by discounting road tax or by an energy rebate, there is quite a number of ways of doing this.

There is nothing that can has ever induced me to share anything with anyone even down to paying council tax in one go rather than 10 x payments & win a car. that in itself is discrimination against those who pay in full. as everyone should have had to, then they would have had no scope to keep increasing payments " beacsue it is only a couple of pounds a month"
It is rope-a-dope.& most have fallen for it.

Drivers could be influenced to share their data by discounting road tax or by an energy rebate, there is quite a number of ways of doing this.

The only thing that could ever influence me to share data would be the offer of topping 3 current or previous "politicians" Then I might think about it.

Regarding tracking I hope you have switched off your Bluetooth connectivity as well and disconnected from the wifi,

Yes. & lead covers around rfid on passport/phones & shields on all cards

So the voluntary part is sharing a subset of data in exchange for a cheaper rate,

as above I'd pay more for them to have less info.

its the world we live in unless you use cash and live off grid and do not use the internet and do not have a NI number its impossible for data not to be collected about you.

Not really. The UK taxman when i last contacted them told me that I didn't exist?

Then ,if I possibly did exist , they had no record of me?
Even though I ran a business for 20 odd years.
You really cannot comprehend how little info is shared between government agencies.

It is Scottish government policy to reduce car travel in Scotland by 20% below the 2019 level, between now and 2030. Because of climate change.

The border needs reinstating

I heard this is all happening in California

Everyonw I know who lives there, every you tube channel I watch that has dealings with ,or travels into/out of, California states it is completly ****ed.
One business owning couple only said last night " the sooner we sell up & get out of this s****hole the better. It is completly ****ed."

Electricity companies get green light to charge rooftop solar owners for exporting power to grid

It is a requirement here in spain & has been for years that all who have solar panels installed are required to register with the taxman so they can pay contributions for their use of the electricity infrastructure. ( elec companies got there mates to introduce the law)
So people like my mate who like me , has a 3kw incoming supply to the house(12Amps), but solar panels that generate 12-15Kw , not only cannot use all that he generates so supplies foc 9Kw/hour to the electric company, but has also paid a high price to fund the installtion to the grid & gains only by paying a lower rate for the same electricity as me ! & yes there is no payment to you for what is genearted just you pay a lower rate for the electricity you use.
Talk about smoke & mirrors to rope them all in.
*The other day he showed me the app on his phone showing generation of 12,78Kw whilst his usage was 0,78Kw.??

 

[gus-lopez]

At the end of the day they can have as many conferences as they wish but all fail to address the one major flaw in the arguments. The rise in the population.
You could ban all use of all types of ice vehicles overnight & the reduction in emissions would in no way mirror what occurred during covid lockdowns.

 

[cyberyacht]

As for tracking us, it seems that going "off grid" may entail a bit more than not plugging in to EHU at some future date. Anyone for George Orwell?

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[Harrogate motorhomer]

After what’s happened with energy prices in the last 18 months I believe that any government is capable of anything & will lie through their back teeth to justify it.
They are like a crack cocaine addict & will do anything to get their fix. Enjoy cheap charging while you can.

 

[MichaelT]

It is not a good idea to trust the government with any data unless it absolutely must have it. For instance for Taxes.

But it is taxes we are talking about?

 

[Coolcats]

You have a choice there. With government you don't.
How will the government use the data? Not today but tomorrow or in 20 years time.

I will say it again. This is not my argument it is the argument that those who are anti government will use. If it is a Tory government then not doubt the far left will use it as a stick and raise all sorts of protests etc.

It is not a good idea to trust the government with any data unless it absolutely must have it. For instance for Taxes.

If there is a way to give them the information without tracking then it should be used.

You do make me smile Gromett the only choice is going off grid using cash and a good old fashioned push bike. Companies are not benign you mention far left politics there is the far right as well but I’m not getting into politics. Companies such as Cambridge Analytica are far more concerning we are all being influenced by companies it’s naive to think otherwise.

The government will want revenue from EV’s it will be a tax to replace the oil revenue they will want it either as it’s drawn from the network or per mile.

We live in a surveillance society, every time we walk down the high street or walk in to a shop or pub go to a football match or concert, step on to a rail or bus station the cameras are watching you on the bus and train. there has been no riots from anti government people, I wager the same will be for EV’s people will accept per mile charge or tax at the point of filling. ANPR is at most service stations it logs your numberplate the pump only starts if there is no record of running off without paying (BP do this) I don’t see riots there either.

 

[Gromett]

You do make me smile Gromett the only choice is going off grid using cash and a good old fashioned push bike. Companies are not benign you mention far left politics there is the far right as well but I’m not getting into politics. Companies such as Cambridge Analytica are far more concerning we are all being influenced by companies it’s naive to think otherwise.

Companies are regulated. You can choose which companies to deal with. You can lobby your MP for changes to legislation to protect you if companies over step the line. you can take a company to court if they break the law.

The government will want revenue from EV’s it will be a tax to replace the oil revenue they will want it either as it’s drawn from the network or per mile.

I agree. I am saying that taxing electric is a non starter and charging per mile will be acceptable to the public. The only debate is how we do it.
Your preferred methods gives the government the ability to track our movements minute by minute and will require a big new IT project.
My preferred method doesn't give the government tracking info and the system for managing it is pretty much already done via the MOT/V5 system.

We live in a surveillance society, every time we walk down the high street or walk in to a shop or pub go to a football match or concert, step on to a rail or bus station the cameras are watching you on the bus and train. there has been no riots from anti government people, I wager the same will be for EV’s people will accept per mile charge or tax at the point of filling. ANPR is at most service stations it logs your numberplate the pump only starts if there is no record of running off without paying (BP do this) I don’t see riots there either.

Again. You are missing my point. There is a difference between the government and companies. Who cares if BP know your car registration plate. You have to go in and pay with a card so they will know your name anyway.
Again I say please stop using companies as an example. They do not have the same powers as a government.

Remember government can put you in jail, companies can't.

I am not some tin foil hatted anti government cretin. I happen to trust our government for the part to be incompetent and dumb but to get the basics sorted. I don't think there is a big clique in government who want to track our every movement.
But that is this government. The next one or the one after may not be quite so benign. The less power we give government the better is a very good principle. Only give them what they absolutely need and no more.

 

[Puddleduck]

Anyone tracking me would get very bored very quickly.

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[MichaelT]

Companies are regulated. You can choose which companies to deal with. You can lobby your MP for changes to legislation to protect you if companies over step the line. you can take a company to court if they break the law.

No you can't but the CPS can.

I agree. I am saying that taxing electric is a non starter and charging per mile will be acceptable to the public. The only debate is how we do it.
Your preferred methods gives the government the ability to track our movements minute by minute and will require a big new IT project.

So will yours!

My preferred method doesn't give the government tracking info and the system for managing it is pretty much already done via the MOT/V5 system.


Remember government can put you in jail, companies can't.

No they can't, you have to be taken to court and a court will decide if you have broken a law and apply the appropriate penalty.

I am not some tin foil hatted anti government cretin. I happen to trust our government for the part to be incompetent and dumb but to get the basics sorted. I don't think there is a big clique in government who want to track our every movement.
But that is this government. The next one or the one after may not be quite so benign. The less power we give government the better is a very good principle. Only give them what they absolutely need and no more.

But if you only allow the mileage to be transferred there is no issue. Also what if cars don't have an MOT how do you track mileage?

 

[Gromett]

Anyone tracking me would get very bored very quickly.

Me too

But it is the principle and the fact it could be used for nefarious purposes.

 

[Gromett]

I am done with this. I am just repeating myself over and over again.

Have fun all.

 

[nicholsong]

Companies are regulated. You can choose which companies to deal with. You can lobby your MP for changes to legislation to protect you if companies over step the line. you can take a company to court if they break the law.





I am not some tin foil hatted anti government cretin. I happen to trust our government for the part to be incompetent and dumb but to get the basics sorted. I don't think there is a big clique in government who want to track our every movement.
But that is this government. The next one or the one after may not be quite so benign. The less power we give government the better is a very good principle. Only give them what they absolutely need and no more.

It is a rule in government that they cannot transfer information from one Department to another without the subject's explicit consent.

Thus if you want to allow the DVLA to access your photo held by the passport office you must specifically consent to that on the driving licence form.

 

[Harrogate motorhomer]

The only thing to remember here is that when they choose/need to replace fuel duty income they will & it will be structured so that we can’t do anything about it just like fuel duty. The rest of it is debating how the deck chairs will be shuffled.

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[ROCHESB]

I wonder what the UK Govt & HMRC will do about collecting any future 'EV tax/mileage levy' (equivalent of fuel duty & VAT) for overseas motorists who are brave enough to bring their EVs to the UK? Any systems that are based upon UK MOTs & garage reporting or similar will not work; ANPR will require international collaboration & retrospective cross border billing with exchange rate complexity for good measure.

Then there's the situation where UK EVs are being used in Europe, how will our European neighbours charge UK EV owners?

Interesting times ahead......

 

[Puddleduck]

It is a rule in government that they cannot transfer information from one Department to another without the subject's explicit consent.

Thus if you want to allow the DVLA to access your photo held by the passport office you must specifically consent to that on the driving licence form.

But DWP will illegally access your details when you are acting for / legally representing some one else.

Ask ShiftZZ

 

[Gromett]

I wonder what the UK Govt & HMRC will do about collecting any future 'EV tax/mileage levy' (equivalent of fuel duty & VAT) for overseas motorists who are brave enough to bring their EVs to the UK? Any systems that are based upon UK MOTs & garage reporting or similar will not work; ANPR will require international collaboration & retrospective cross border billing with exchange rate complexity for good measure.

Then there's the situation where UK EVs are being used in Europe, how will our European neighbours charge UK EV owners?

Interesting times ahead......

Off the top of my head there are a few options.

• Fixed fee on entry based on how many days they are staying.
• Rental payg device.
• Take their mileage on entry and exit and charge for the difference.
• Let them in for free as they will be spending money while they are here. Tourism/business is to be encouraged.

 

[Coolcats]

I wonder what the UK Govt & HMRC will do about collecting any future 'EV tax/mileage levy' (equivalent of fuel duty & VAT) for overseas motorists who are brave enough to bring their EVs to the UK? Any systems that are based upon UK MOTs & garage reporting or similar will not work; ANPR will require international collaboration & retrospective cross border billing with exchange rate complexity for good measure.

Then there's the situation where UK EVs are being used in Europe, how will our European neighbours charge UK EV owners?

Interesting times ahead......

If it's a vehicle not registered in the UK it will have to use charge points tax to be applied per kWh would be the simplest.

 

[ROCHESB]

If it's a vehicle not registered in the UK it will have to use charge points tax to be applied per kWh would be the simplest.

This brings us back to the question about how would you levy a 'charge per kwh' if they used a domestic 13A socket? Would the levy be the same for a domestic charger as a public one? There are differences in VAT rates already between home & public chargers.

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[SpeedyDux]

Off the top of my head there are a few options.

• Fixed fee on entry based on how many days they are staying.
• Rental payg device.
• Take their mileage on entry and exit and charge for the difference.
• Let them in for free as they will be spending money while they are here. Tourism/business is to be encouraged.

Most likely

Option 4 - the real reason would be because HMG can't be bothered.

 

[nicholsong]

The technology already exists for road use charging per km.

It has already been introduced in Poland for >3.5t. It consists of a box on the windscreen which transmits the GPS-tracked kms and deducts from ones account. It is similar to the Austrian GO box but uses GPS instead of sensors on gantries.

Because it is GPS based there is no gantry and other infrastructure needed on the ground. It has already been extended to roads with no infrastructure at no cost other that of issuing the boxes and running the charging system centrally.

This system can be applied to any vehicles and on any roads, and also could be used for differential pricing for different times and days.

 

[Gromett]

Most likely

Option 4 - the real reason would be because HMG can't be bothered.

I agree.
It would be my preferred option as well. The amount raised would probably not cover the cost of whatever scheme was used. It would create ill will with our neighbours and would no doubt found to be a method to avoid payment by our own citizens.

 

[georgio]

The campsites in france where we stay impose a tourist tax also environmental tax of 1.5 euros per day , this could easily be 8ncreased for none french passport holders

 

[nicholsong]

The campsites in france where we stay impose a tourist tax also environmental tax of 1.5 euros per day , this could easily be 8ncreased for none french passport holders

Please, who do I pay those taxes to for free Aires?

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[tribalbrit]

Pulled into a services on the A1 yesterday and there was a massive diesel generator running.... guess what... the electric charging points for the EV.s go figure.. couldn't make it up.

 

[Gromett]

Pulled into a services on the A1 yesterday and there was a massive diesel generator running.... guess what... the electric charging points for the EV.s go figure.. couldn't make it up.

Everytime someone has said something like this it has turned out to either not be true or only partially true and misleading sadly.

What services was this on?

 

[tribalbrit]

Gonerby Moor, Grantham and I don't tell lies.

 

[Wh05apk]

Gonerby Moor, Grantham and I don't tell lies.
View attachment 721312

That'll be for the closed off charging points which don't look like they are in use yet? Probably just supplying the power for the building work until connected to mains...

 

[Tombola]

Gonerby Moor, Grantham and I don't tell lies.
View attachment 721312

Generator rental for the works going on installing the NEW EV chargers and re instating the road

You may not tell lies but being observant doesnt like like your strong point

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