Full time through winter in search of new life

[tinkertaylor]

Yes but my point is , it's only the interest on the money that's gone up, not the repayment or staff costs or all manner of things , the half a percent extra on the interest is only say a tenth of the whole costs so a tenth of half a percent on the whole expenditure.

Those costs haven't raised

It’s not just the interest rates. It’s the fact that we now see that the current owner appears to have deliberately misled us on the forecasts for this season. A reason I insisted we were able to stay onsite through the season and put a few caveats in the ‘compromis’ was to confirm that the income was as claimed. It isn’t. Last year was extreme due to the post pandemic effect and this season is, while not quite a disaster, about 50% down.

This place requires about €3m of capital to turn round. as stated it is roughly half in purchase cost, half in required investment. Everything and I do mean everything requires replacing. Without investment it will continue to wither and will die. We planned to put in capital 1/3 of that. That’s €2m of debt to service. Plan A was to ‘partner’ (their term) the banks for the second €1.5m over 5 years.

By far the most important was current turnover. Without sufficient turnover, income, there’s no viable business to begin with, it’s too much of a challenge.

The reduction in income or CA changes the value of the FdC. Hence there is now a need to achieve a corresponding reduction in the price. We will be seeking a 33% reduction in the price for the business (no change in the value of the ‘walls’). It won’t be easy and there is likely to be some tears and emotion from the vendor and especially some anger from his wife when we present the facts face to face.

We will achieve the result, or we will walk, it’s that simple. Neither Bea nor I can guess how it will go.

Sounds challenging, try and get some enjoyment out of it, it's often the journey rather than the destination that makes things special. Good luck

 

[dawsey]

I'm not quite sure you are seeing eye to eye, I just think you both agree on not taking 'something' on that isn't viable.
I think the OP was quite clear from the beginning in that if it wasn't affordable after a massive amount of due diligence ( some of the camp sites that have been put forward are not actually operating, so it would have been difficult to do as much background research as the OP has obviously done) that they would walk away if they couldn't reach a workable price/contract out, Which is why they only agreed a contract on a VERY low interest rate, which in terms of the current hikes in interest rates, actually shows they were using their heads and not their hearts as I doubt that rate was ever achievable.
Some posters suggested walking immediately, but I like their commitment to their own base line principles. They were never going to take it on if it was a bad business proposition, I don't think either of them are that naive.
Plus they've had quite a few months camp site accomodation for free LOL, so if they do move on its only really cost them time and emotions and they have established a potential business partnership with the banks, which will be critical when moving forward.

Very astute. Many thanks

 

[StephandJohn]

Sad to even have to contemplate the end of a dream.
We can't use our motorhome for health reasons this year and next year is doubtful although we're always hopeful. However reading MHF avidly to get a bit of a fix I think things have changed a lot since we started motorhoming in 2007 and definitely since Covid and Brexit. Everything seems so much more expensive all over Europe as far as I can see anyway.
It makes me wonder if a lot of campsites will be able to survive.

 

[Riverbankannie]

Sad to even have to contemplate the end of a dream.
We can't use our motorhome for health reasons this year and next year is doubtful although we're always hopeful. However reading MHF avidly to get a bit of a fix I think things have changed a lot since we started motorhoming in 2007 and definitely since Covid and Brexit. Everything seems so much more expensive all over Europe as far as I can see anyway.
It makes me wonder if a lot of campsites will be able to survive.

The reasons why campsites exist though are not going to change. Being out in nature rather than stuck in a hotel room is something we have always enjoyed and so do our children and I suspect our children’s children. Having freedom to runaround in a grassy setting with added bonus of a pool, I don’t think the demand is going to go away. Perhaps even more of a demand with the predicted hot summers in Spain and Greece, a warm but shady getaway in France very appealing.
Plus the option of up-market statics and pods to rent, I see that demand going up.

 

[dawsey]

Sad to even have to contemplate the end of a dream.
We can't use our motorhome for health reasons this year and next year is doubtful although we're always hopeful. However reading MHF avidly to get a bit of a fix I think things have changed a lot since we started motorhoming in 2007 and definitely since Covid and Brexit. Everything seems so much more expensive all over Europe as far as I can see anyway.
It makes me wonder if a lot of campsites will be able to survive.

So sorry to hear of your health issues, we hope you can get back into it. We are much more upbeat, camping in all forms has never been more popular, and will continue to be so, especially in hard times as it is the cheap holiday option. While in general this is not a good year (for lots of reasons) for anyone, it’s much tougher on the Brits due to the reduction in the value of the pound, and all the other unique problems brought about or amplified by you know what. The Brits, especially those on fixed income have to cope with far less € for their £, a near doubling of the channel crossing costs, AHC costs if you have a pet, restrictions on length of stay and inflation-driven higher grocery and fuel costs in Europe all compounding the effects of a weak pound. It’s a near perfect storm for us poor Brits, but hopefully things will ease in a few years as new UK trade, cooperation and tourist travel agreements are forged and a bit of common sense is applied to stuff like AHC’s, inflation falls away and hopefully the pound and the UK economy recovers a bit relative to the Eurozone.

We’ve been watching the movements on this site and there’s still a good few Brits in touring outfits, and absolutely no shortage of Dutch and German travellers. It’s the French who are staying away from the statics, the cost of living thing and the loss of the covid campers has hit this site very hard. The touring pitches and the glamping stuff seems to be a bit more resilient.

Many of you might remember that a big aire de camping car and a glamping operation was the target from the very beginning…..

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[dawsey]

The reasons why campsites exist though are not going to change. Being out in nature rather than stuck in a hotel room is something we have always enjoyed and so do our children and I suspect our children’s children. Having freedom to runaround in a grassy setting with added bonus of a pool, I don’t think the demand is going to go away. Perhaps even more of a demand with the predicted hot summers in Spain and Greece, a warm but shady getaway in France very appealing.
Plus the option of up-market statics and pods to rent, I see that demand going up.

We completely agree. Bang on!

 

[Just smiffy]

It may of already been asked but there’s a lot to look back on, have you a number two campsite in mind if you have to walk away from it..?

 

[StephandJohn]

Oh good. I do hope I've got it wrong then. Having said all of that we'd still be going if we could so it hasn't put us off either.

 

[Brains]

It makes me wonder if a lot of campsites will be able to survive.

From what we have seen in the last two years (so post Pandemic, Brexit and with the current European wide economic woes) where we have spent about 3 months of each year on campsites, there is no shortage of campers.

At several points we have struggled to find a pitch and we don't travel in July and August!

Like the OP we have noticed that the Dutch and the Germans seem to be by far the majority on almost every site we have been to down as far as Croatia (France, Italy, Slovenia, Austria)

So for the next few years, it's the Dutch and German market that will make the money, with the French as a steady reserve and any British, Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans as a Brucie Bonus.

 

[dawsey]

It may of already been asked but there’s a lot to look back on, have you a number two campsite in mind if you have to walk away from it..?

There are two or three. All still on market. One is a naturiste site, an utterly beautiful location on the very crest of a hill in Correze looking down on what might just be the most beautiful village in the whole of France. One is in Dordogne, we made two offers and there was only €50k between us and the vendor. Then the extremely beautiful but very high flood risk no insurance/no finance site in the deep South near Montpelier.

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[Dutch 68]

There are two or three. All still on market. One is a naturiste site, an utterly beautiful location on the very crest of a hill in Correze looking down on what might just be the most beautiful village in the whole of France. One is in Dordogne, we made two offers and there was only €50k between us and the vendor. Then the extremely beautiful but very high flood risk no insurance/no finance site in the deep South near Montpelier.

50k seems not a difference which can not be negotiated if both parties are willing? Location and views are of utter importance

 

[MisterB]

Location and views are of utter importance

As are clothes for most of us ..

 

[Dutch 68]

As are clothes for most of us ..

Depends how hot it is lol

 

[chaser]

Good luck today. Don't take any more nonsense off him.
Just show him what you can get for similar money.

 

[suavecarve]

an utterly beautiful location on the very crest of a hill in Correze looking down on what might just be the most beautiful village in the whole of France.

If you were to join the naturist section of MHF there may be a few who have used this site who might be able to give pointers, should it come further into your decision making.

PS it is a very very nice beaux village

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[dawsey]

If you were to join the naturist section of MHF there may be a few who have used this site who might be able to give pointers, should it come further into your decision making.

PS it is a very very nice beaux village

Do you know it? from the description?

We saw it twice, and rejected because all the accommodation was wrong for the current and any future operating model, the clientele, location, plus there was no owners house and changing from naturist to normal camping (or ‘textile’) would have taken too long, years in fact to build an all new business. Also, beautiful as it was, it’s not a place that many foreigners get to. We’d have taken a chance, but at only 65% of the exorbitant asking price.

Prices have been the real problem. 2022 was spectacularly successful, and none of the owners wanted to recognise that there would be a ‘reversion to the norm’ in 2023. It has happened with bells on, and conversations are going to be very different now.

 

[suavecarve]

Do you know it? from the description?

We saw it twice, and rejected because all the accommodation was wrong for the current and any future operating model, the clientele, location, plus there was no owners house and changing from naturist to normal camping (or ‘textile’) would have taken too long, years in fact to build an all new business. Also, beautiful as it was, it’s not a place that many foreigners get to. We’d have taken a chance, but at only 65% of the exorbitant asking price.

Prices have been the real problem. 2022 was spectacularly successful, and none of the owners wanted to recognise that there would be a ‘reversion to the norm’ in 2023. It has happened with bells on, and conversations are going to be very different now.

I think so though never stayed there but have been to the Beaux village.

 

[MisterB]

Do you know it? from the description?

We saw it twice, and rejected because all the accommodation was wrong for the current and any future operating model, the clientele, location, plus there was no owners house and changing from naturist to normal camping (or ‘textile’) would have taken too long, years in fact to build an all new business. Also, beautiful as it was, it’s not a place that many foreigners get to. We’d have taken a chance, but at only 65% of the exorbitant asking price.

Prices have been the real problem. 2022 was spectacularly successful, and none of the owners wanted to recognise that there would be a ‘reversion to the norm’ in 2023. It has happened with bells on, and conversations are going to be very different now.

Which to me shows that you are and have always been conscious and realistic about what you can actually achieve within your funding stream and the timescale required to turn any purchase into a profitable venture. Hope everything goes well in the imminent discussions.

 

[dawsey]

I think so though never stayed there but have been to the Beaux village.

If you are a naturist and have been to Collonge la Rouge but didn’t stay at Le Coq Rouge naturist camping (yes I’ve already made all the jokes) then you missed out. Right on top of the col at about 650m altitude with a 100km view over the Dordogne valley on one side and a clear 150km view of the Cantal range on the other. Never seen a place like it. And the owners work their arses off, it’s spotless and the food/attention to detail of the restaurant (we saw behind the scenes) is fantastic. We were mightily impressed by the site annd the owners and we only saw it when it was closed (and they were grafting like billly-o to improve the swimming pool. Highly recommended for you naturist folks..

Domaine du Coq Rouge - Unusual Naturis Campsite - Home

domaineducoqrouge.com

 

[Gina M]

If you are a naturist and have been to Collonge la Rouge but didn’t stay at Le Coq Rouge naturist camping (yes I’ve already made all the jokes) then you missed out. Right on top of the col at about 650m altitude with a 100km view over the Dordogne valley on one side and a clear 150km view of the Cantal range on the other. Never seen a place like it. And the owners work their arses off, it’s spotless and the food is fantastic. We were mightily impressed by them and we only saw it when it was closed (and they were grafting like billly-o to improve the swimming pool. Highly recommended for you naturist folks..

If you are a naturist and have been to Collonge la Rouge but didn’t stay at Le Coq Rouge naturist camping (yes I’ve already made all the jokes) then you missed out. Right on top of the col at about 650m altitude with a 100km view over the Dordogne valley on one side and a clear 150km view of the Cantal range on the other. Never seen a place like it. And the owners work their arses off, it’s spotless and the food is fantastic. We were mightily impressed by them and we only saw it when it was closed (and they were grafting like billly-o to improve the swimming pool. Highly recommended for you naturist folks…

Domaine du Coq Rouge - Unusual Naturis Campsite - Home

domaineducoqrouge.com

I'll have whatever you are drinking tonight

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[dawsey]

I'll have whatever you are drinking tonight

Ha, you spotted my deliberate mistake before I even corrected it… 1st prize. You win a night at the coq rouge, paid by us….

 

[suavecarve]

If you are a naturist and have been to Collonge la Rouge but didn’t stay at Le Coq Rouge naturist camping (yes I’ve already made all the jokes) then you missed out. Right on top of the col at about 650m altitude with a 100km view over the Dordogne valley on one side and a clear 150km view of the Cantal range on the other. Never seen a place like it. And the owners work their arses off, it’s spotless and the food/attention to detail of the restaurant (we saw behind the scenes) is fantastic. We were mightily impressed by the site annd the owners and we only saw it when it was closed (and they were grafting like billly-o to improve the swimming pool. Highly recommended for you naturist folks..

Domaine du Coq Rouge - Unusual Naturis Campsite - Home

domaineducoqrouge.com

Cost would be a reason for me. I like ACSI discount !

 

[dawsey]

Another thing we have noticed on our travels, the ASCI thing is, well, not really as much of a thing as people think. Many sites that offer ASCI only do it to bring in those who think it’s a bargain, they actually charge the same to everyone out of season. There’s actually very few campsites of any type you can’t stay on for €20 base price out of July-Aug (sometimes from mid June) peak season. The campsites have to pay ASCI to be a member and they resent it very much.

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

Another thing we have noticed on our travels, the ASCI thing is, well, not really as much of a thing as people think. Many sites that offer ASCI only do it to bring in those who think it’s a bargain, they actually charge the same to everyone out of season. There’s actually very few campsites of any type you can’t stay on for €20 base price out of July-Aug (sometimes from mid June) peak season. The campsites have to pay ASCI to be a member and they resent it very much.

Paid £16 for my membership at the NEC last year and 2 nights in Germany saved me about€24 so paid for itself
Would have saved more had I remembered I had it when booking the 2 sites In Switzerland

Was also suprised that the front line lakeside pitch was included in ACSI

 

[Brains]

Another thing we have noticed on our travels, the ASCI thing is, well, not really as much of a thing as people think. Many sites that offer ASCI only do it to bring in those who think it’s a bargain, they actually charge the same to everyone out of season. There’s actually very few campsites of any type you can’t stay on for €20 base price out of July-Aug (sometimes from mid June) peak season. The campsites have to pay ASCI to be a member and they resent it very much.

The main reason site owners pay ACSI for membership is to get into the database.
We tend to rely on the database to find sites (we use google and apps etc as well).
Therefore I'd strongly suggest you (retain) ACSI membership.

Whether you offer any sort of discount is up to you, the most useful feature I find is the acceptence of the ACSI ID card, which stops sites wanting passport details

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[dawsey]

The main reason site owners pay ACSI for membership is to get into the database.
We tend to rely on the database to find sites (we use google and apps etc as well).
Therefore I'd strongly suggest you (retain) ACSI membership.

Whether you offer any sort of discount is up to you, the most useful feature I find is the acceptence of the ACSI ID card, which stops sites wanting passport details

Yes, this was what we concluded. It’s worth retaining. We would have to find a way to stop the travellers as they appear to have worked out how to get in and avoid going past reception. Hey ho, barriers and more costs.

 

[dawsey]

Good luck today. Don't take any more nonsense off him.
Just show him what you can get for similar money.

not today, it’s next week…

but thanks all the same. Nice to think that ‘Chaser’ is onboard…

 

[Swozer]

Southern Europe heatwaves drive tourists in France north

Heatwaves are driving tourists away from the sun-drenched south of France towards rainier northern regions such as Brittany and Normandy, analysts have said.Ca

www.thetimes.co.uk

Heatwaves are driving tourists away from the sun-drenched south of France towards rainier northern regions such as Brittany and Normandy, analysts have said. Some hoteliers are cutting prices after the occupancy rate on the French Riviera dropped. Campsites are down by as much as 40 per cent.
Don't look too far south...

 

[mikebeaches]

If you are a naturist and have been to Collonge la Rouge but didn’t stay at Le Coq Rouge naturist camping (yes I’ve already made all the jokes) then you missed out. Right on top of the col at about 650m altitude with a 100km view over the Dordogne valley on one side and a clear 150km view of the Cantal range on the other. Never seen a place like it. And the owners work their arses off, it’s spotless and the food/attention to detail of the restaurant (we saw behind the scenes) is fantastic. We were mightily impressed by the site annd the owners and we only saw it when it was closed (and they were grafting like billly-o to improve the swimming pool. Highly recommended for you naturist folks..

Domaine du Coq Rouge - Unusual Naturis Campsite - Home

domaineducoqrouge.com

Nice one!

We're fortunate to have stayed at loads of great naturist places in France, but haven't visited Domaine de Coq Rouge. Sounds really good.

 

[Brains]

Yes, this was what we concluded. It’s worth retaining. We would have to find a way to stop the travellers as they appear to have worked out how to get in and avoid going past reception. Hey ho, barriers and more costs.

It's all about how you design your entrance.
The photo below is River Camping, Lake Bled, which is a good example of 'best practice.'

• Driveway in from main road
• Some external parking for cars and smaller vans and deliveries.
• Two lanes opposite reception which are long enough for 10 motorhomes or caravans.
• roadway kept clear for those on site who have been processed
• Roundabout so that vehicles can be turned around without the need to enter the site
• Fob controlled 'airlock' gates, (one gate must be closed before other will open), all done on a bend, so that it can be easily rammed
• Major facilities around the entry, so that staff can easily be moved to where the rush is (or where it is not)
• The rest of the site has to be secure, berms and hawthorn hedging is probably the cheapest long term solution. (If there is a back gate, they will find it)

There are three ways you can change camp site fees.

• Upfront on booking. However you may have issues with people that book a week and then cancel and you have to refund (a percentage)
• On arrival Card only, no cash, you must have a copy of their photo ID, some will object. They can leave.
• In arrears on departure. which is the easiest option, the one that can be abused most easily, especially if you take cash and no ID

I would strongly say that option three is never available, not even to friends and regulars.
All bookings must be with a card (no cash) and with an photo ID, which you copy.
No card, no ID, no entry.

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