Dangerous Ecoflow kit? (1 Viewer)

[autorouter]

I stand corrected. Not sure where I am going wrong here. Going to have to dig into my text books. I am absolutely certain from memory that we didn't use an input voltage in our calculations.

THAT calculator doesn't give the actual percentage voltage drop figures, it just chooses between sizes depending on whether it's above or below 3%. So if the figures were 3.05% and 2.95% you would get two different wire sizes even though the voltage drops were very similar.

 

[Gromett]

THAT calculator doesn't give the actual percentage voltage drop figures, it just chooses between sizes depending on whether it's above or below 3%. So if the figures were 3.05% and 2.95% you would get two different wire sizes even though the voltage drops were very similar.

I think perhaps it is the % bit that is throwing me. I don't recall ever using 3% or any other percentage in the calculations. It was 30+ years ago I did this and it wasn't specific to 12v systems. I am too tired (working all night) so not going to stress too much about it just now.

 

[Gromett]

Both of you are partly right. W = I²R is correct, the power wasted and the voltage drop do not depend on the battery voltage. It would be the same watts wasted and voltage drop if it was a 240V supply giving out 60A.

But the percentage loss would be different. A voltage drop that's 3% of 12V (ie 0.36V) would be 2.5% of 14.5V and 0.15% of 240V. It's the principal reason houses use 240V not 12V, so they can use less copper, even though 240V is dangerous.

Just re-reading the thread, and I think this is where I went astray... And in my tired state I think I missed the point you were trying to make here autorouter

If memory serves and it may not. I was probably working calculations based on acceptable losses in absolute terms, plus I believe we were calculating heating for within conduit etc.

 

[Hoovie]

I stand corrected. Not sure where I am going wrong here. Going to have to dig into my text books. I am absolutely certain from memory that we didn't use an input voltage in our calculations.

It is down to percentages rather than absolutes I think. In that calculator (which is useful enough but I don't think should be used as a benchmark) the step changes are such that the subtleties get lost.


Just a general comment about B2Bs as the conversation generally seems to have gone to that ... I know they are quoted in current terms i.e. "Victron 30A" or "Sterling 60A" or whatever, but if you delve into the documentation, they are actually specified in Wattage, not Amperage - so to take the Victron 12V 30A Orion-TR Smart (aka the "Victron 30A B2B") example, this is in fact a 360W Device by design. The actual current is not a static 30A maximum, it WILL depend on the input voltage and the output voltage (and you will see greater than 30A output sometimes when the batteries are low and so the voltage is not at its maximum and you will see less than 30A when the voltage is high).
Basically there are so many variables to consider, it is best (IMO anyway) to just consider the worst case scenario (low voltage, high current, etc) and build to that, but at the same time be a bit pragmatic (who honestly would use a 50mm2 cable for a 30A B2B in truth? I wouldn't - I would just accept that maybe the losses were a little worse than a 3% ideal. You will still get the required voltage OUT the B2B, which is what matters if it were fitted close to the Leisure Battery, which is what you would do for best practice).

 

[Fragle]

Any link to it?

The page is the photo

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[Gromett]

The page is the photo

Ah ok. so he was just making a comment then linking to the forum?

 

[chaser]

Ah ok. so he was just making a comment then linking to the forum?

Gjs reply is the black panel at the bottom of the photo.

 

[autorouter]

I think perhaps it is the % bit that is throwing me. I don't recall ever using 3% or any other percentage in the calculations.

The voltage drop, as in V = IR, is as you say solid science, predictable to the nearest microvolt. The handwavy bit is to decide between the weight and expense of copper and the expense of wasted power and performance loss due to voltage drop. The industry consensus is that about 3% voltage drop is deemed acceptable, but if you are designing the system for your own use you get to choose, and some on here seem to go for more like 2% or less. It's a classic 'engineering compromise'.

 

[Fragle]

Ah ok. so he was just making a comment then linking to the forum?

Yes.
Apparently the forum slag him off for telling the truth.
Hope he doesn’t mean everyone Although some on here do get a bit excited when they talk about him.
I’m not skilled enough with electric installations to comment on his installation and this is plug and play yet people on here still seem to think he’s the problem.
I think he’s perfectly correct with this EcoFlow issue and deserves support.
Just my opinion

 

[Gromett]

The voltage drop, as in V = IR, is as you say solid science, predictable to the nearest microvolt. The handwavy bit is to decide between the weight and expense of copper and the expense of wasted power and performance loss due to voltage drop. The industry consensus is that about 3% voltage drop is deemed acceptable, but if you are designing the system for your own use you get to choose, and some on here seem to go for more like 2% or less. It's a classic 'engineering compromise'.

It was an electronics course (ONC). I think we were perhaps calculating based on absolute losses. ie no more than 5w losses in a constrained area. To be honest it was so long ago I may be convincing myself of stuff now.

But. I will always use the nominal voltage in calculations as it builds in a safety margin for energy calculations.
300w / 14.5v = 20.6A
300w / 12v = 25A

If you spec for the 12v nominal at 25 amps you have more headroom over the 20Amps.

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[bubble63]

I think the reason the cable was jointed in the first place is because if the run at the end of the reel drops short, instead of going to the next reel and wasting that short piece they join and keep pulling the cables into the loom
That sort of joint is invisible inside an outer sheath…. cheap

 

[chaser]

I think the reason the cable was jointed in the first place is because if the run at the end of the reel drops short, instead of going to the next reel and wasting that short piece they join and keep pulling the cables into the loom
That sort of joint is invisible inside an outer sheath…. cheap

Bit of a coincidence or fate or whatever, that this GJ bloke is the one to have this faulty setup, when it was being tested by him for ecoflow ,you would have thought they would of pulled out all the stops in checking it all out, if they send him one like this what are their other ones like.?

 

[Wissel]

Bit of a coincidence or fate or whatever, that this GJ bloke is the one to have this faulty setup, when it was being tested by him for ecoflow ,you would have thought they would of pulled out all the stops in checking it all out, if they send him one like this what are their other ones like.?

I highly doubt that John or any other YouTuber is testing the product for Ecoflow.

They may have been told that's the case, but the reality is more likely that Ecoflow are purely using them as advertising and couldn't care less about their opinions.

Although I bet they care a little now

 

[Hoovie]

If you are going to get a product from a company to test it, you would not post issues with it publically. Product testing tends to be a little more confidential then that!

I do some product testing for a couple of companies and if I find a problem, I obviously feed that back to them, along with my general findings. I don't post them on forums and on the 'socials'. Quite a few people here are using those products, which have been improved and tweaked as part of the field testing

If I bought a product that was like John got, I would first look for answers - and a serious level of concern from the supplier- before going public with both the issue AND the resolution. That is only fair.
But I get the impression that John got a "don't care" response from them and posted what he did out of both annoyance (to put it mildly) and concern for others with the same kit. And right to do so.

 

[Miggs]

Some clarification:

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[Lenny HB]

So what he is saying is they sent out sub standard cables to their distributors and they then sold them!
He was saying they were only for demo purposes if that was the case surely they would have told the distributors.

Me thinks there is more to this and he has received some compensation.

 

[Hoovie]

I get the feeling that the cable set was just substandard by both design AND manufacture. And they have come up with an excuse.
Most Demo kit is able to be demonstrated? It is no different to the 'real' stuff and gets sold on after a time.
It is a shame (for Ecoflow) that they didn't respond in a much more timely manner so John would likely have mentioned this and the reason (which would have been more plausible if it was part of the initial 'look what I found' video).
Can't deny if I had an Ecoflow Power system, I would still be carefully checking the cables from end to end.

 

[Rob Turner]

I think that the explanation is perfectly plausible.

That actual part of the kit could have been going to maybe the NEC or another exhibition and used for demonstration purposes and never have had any fire in the wire so to speak.
He does mention that it was sent out by mistake, I have no reason not to believe what he says.

Some of GJs earlier videos were a bit sketchy to say the least but he’s learnt over the years and I do follow and watch him.
I do think that maybe a lesson with a tape measure maybe in order though but he now laughs about the window incident.

 

[Reallyretired]

I too think he was annoyed at the lack of response from ecoflow which is why he went public so quickly, also I think it had genuinely frightened him, as well it might.
I subscribe to his channel and find it useful, his cockup with the maxxfan prevented me making the same mistake. Not many of the youtubers are willing to show you their failures.

 

[Rob Turner]

I too think he was annoyed at the lack of response from ecoflow which is why he went public so quickly, also I think it had genuinely frightened him, as well it might.
I subscribe to his channel and find it useful, his cockup with the maxxfan prevented me making the same mistake. Not many of the youtubers are willing to show you their failures.

That’s what I like about him.
He isn’t shy of sharing his cock ups which does help others.
A lot would edit those bits out and make everything look so easy.

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[Otter Spotter]

Interesting reply from Gadget John on instagram this morningView attachment 716808

He he I am famous on Instagram .

 

[Rob Turner]

Interesting reply from Gadget John on instagram this morningView attachment 716808

Why is it interesting?
I’d be pissed off with all the shit that he is getting.
Spotting the burn marks has potentially stopped a fire or even worse from happening.

 

[Just smiffy]

So it’s ok to send a faulty cable to a show full of people in an arena which could have caught fire…

 

[Rob Turner]

So it’s ok to send a faulty cable to a show full of people in an arena which could have caught fire…

As I wrote, it may have been for demo purposes and not even juiced up. If it had have been a live demo, I’m fairly confident in saying it wouldn’t have been setup to run at full capacity and therefore safe.

 

[DT]

To a layman seeing the joint in the cable and the burn marks on the floor means do not take the risk buying their products. He probably got offered some deal either a full refund or compo but if he had not set about redesigning his loo room then only a matter of time before a fire started.

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[Just smiffy]

As I wrote, it may have been for demo purposes and not even juiced up. If it had have been a live demo, I’m fairly confident in saying it wouldn’t have been setup to run at full capacity and therefore safe.

I’ve been to many places where they are demonstrating stuff and don’t they always test it to the limit to show it’s capabilities…

 

[Two on Tour]

Looks like GJ is going to have a bumper payout from Youtube this month.

 

[Gromett]

I don't see any reason not to take him at his word.

 

[Hoovie]

I don't see any reason not to take him at his word.

I would agree. My own doubts are with the authenticity of what he was told by Ecoflow.

 

[Tombola]

Nah, Eco sold him a dog ....he didnt get any discount, nor did he get "review this for us"
What they are saying about "the cable was never intended for full use", also stinks to me, why would any decent company waste time to join a cable like that, then never intend it for full use, the cost of doing that versus throwing away (or using the other piece elsewhere) and use a "proper" cable would be even more.
THey had an idiot join a piece, and cant trace it, so are giving excuses.

I hope GJ got all his money back and then some for trouble shooting etc.

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