Dangerous Ecoflow kit? (1 Viewer)

[Gromett]

No, even in a house the wiring you are not supposed to do yourself is the kitchen and bathroom.

The rules have changed. You are not supposed to do anything anymore except minor stuff. replacing a light switch, socket or light fitting is about the limit. Most other stuff is notifiable now under part P.

Or that is my understanding. That said. I did my training under the 15th edition so even I am not allowed to touch electrics anymore

 

[Lenny HB]

The rules have changed. You are not supposed to do anything anymore except minor stuff. replacing a light switch, socket or light fitting is about the limit. Most other stuff is notifiable now under part P.

Or that is my understanding. That said. I did my training under the 15th edition so even I am not allowed to touch electrics anymore

I'm certain that was relaxed a few years ago, anyway stuff that,I do all my own wiring, not letting any bodging tradesman into my house. In fact everyone I know does they own wiring.

 

[Wissel]

I'm certain that was relaxed a few years ago, anyway stuff that,I do all my own wiring, not letting any bodging tradesman into my house. In fact everyone I know does they own wiring.

Seems like you're right Lenny. The rules have definitely changed since I remember them. Just found this:

"All new electrical work must comply with Part P of the Building Regulations which restricts DIY electrical work on grounds of safety. However, you are still allowed to carry out some work yourself without notifying Building Control. Minor repairs and maintenance are permitted, as well as ‘like for like’ replacements, such as changing existing sockets, switches and ceiling pendants or even replacing damaged cables. As long as the job isn’t within a ‘special location’ such as a bathroom or outdoors, you’re also allowed to install additional new light fittings, switches, sockets and even add a single fused spur to an existing circuit (a ‘spur’ is a new cable and socket run as a branch from an existing socket on the ring main).

Everything else, such as installing complete new circuits or changing a fuse board for a consumer unit, is classed as ‘notifiable work’. This requires a Building Regulations application to be made in advance so the work can be inspected and checked. However, in most cases the electrician can self-certify their work as they’re normally registered with a body that gives them the necessary ‘registered installer’ status (also known as ‘competent persons’) such as the ECA (Electrical Contractors Association) or NICEIC (National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting).

A ‘non-qualified’ person can still carry out notifiable electrical work as long as Building Control are informed – but if you fail to do this and the work is found to be unsafe, it can lead to a hefty fine. Upon completion of the job, it is a legal requirement for the electrician to test the new system and hand over a signed BS 7671 electrical safety certificate. In addition, you should be sent a Building Regulations compliance certificate for all notifiable work by the operator of the registration scheme."

Interesting to know

 

[busbuddy]

Never watched him before
The second he tampered with the product, for whatever reason, I would think his chance of a refund disappeared.

 

[Ernesto]

I must admit I find GJ videos a little slow and I didn’t really understand driving to Ukraine to deliver some power banks - would have been far more economic and kinder to the planet to use DHL ….but I do think he deserves some credit for posting up his experiences…

Most of us can learn from others challenges and difficulties and from what I’ve seen, he will be making absolute peanuts from Youtube with 35k subscribers, so he’s not in it for the cash.

I suspect Ecoflow subcontract supply accessories like cables to other companies, and this issue is a failure of external quality control - lets be honest, it probably isn‘t the sexiest job in ecoflow, but this is where more sophisticated European companies score points. Ecoflow could have used this as an opportunity to promote their brand and customer service - but they’ve failed at that too

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[Two on Tour]

Soon to be made into a Hollywood Blockbuster movie.

 

[DT]

Gadget John should stop reinventing the wheel for views, too dangerous. One of the best online YT resource is
EXPLORIST.life. For our friends from across the pond he explains things clearly although for the US market only.

 

[Gizmouk]

Never watched him before
The second he tampered with the product, for whatever reason, I would think his chance of a refund disappeared.

I've never heard of him before, as I don't watch Youtube / Social Media self proclaimed self entitled "influencers".
However, on this occasion I did watch the follow up video - link below. I also had a very quick look at the list of other videos, which seem to clearly contain a common theme of negativity and failure.
I don't know what he does for a job, but I know he certainly isn't experienced in DC installs - his work look messy and ill thought out.

For those who can't be bothered to waste time watching his video, and listening to his bleating:
EcoFlow did contact him, and offered a replacement complete with installation at their cost. He declined. The End.

 

[chaser]

I've never heard of him before, as I don't watch Youtube / Social Media self proclaimed self entitled "influencers".
However, on this occasion I did watch the follow up video - link below. I also had a very quick look at the list of other videos, which seem to clearly contain a common theme of negativity and failure.
I don't know what he does for a job, but I know he certainly isn't experienced in DC installs - his work look messy and ill thought out.

For those who can't be bothered to waste time watching his video, and listening to his bleating:
EcoFlow did contact him, and offered a replacement complete with installation at their cost. He declined. The End.

I too had never watched this guy before and from what I had heard of him before I thought his blogs were for amusement only as things he did always went wrong, but I now find he is for real, and folks are supposed to learn off him, there must be some disasters waiting to happen.

 

[Lenny HB]

No, the solder is not holding the joint, the crimp is, the solder is only to fill the miniature cavities that exist under normal crimping (just a touch of solder nothing more) then crimped again while under heat, this enables 99.9% none resistance, the joint then shrinks when cooling to enable stronger hold, idea of this kind of joint is to reduce resistance nothing more, the compression and the shrink holds the joint in place, these are crimps at either end, never, ever in the middle.

That is about the worse thing you can do with a crimped joint, if you do that the cold welding process will never work & the joint will work loose.

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[Gromett]

That is about the worse thing you can do with a crimped joint, if you do that the cold welding process will never work & the joint will work loose.

I agree with this.

If you are going to solder, then solder properly.

But soldering in an environment where the cables are not fixed and subject to vibration will result in stress fracturing of the joint.

For vehicles, it should be crimps only.

 

[The Artilleryman]

Everything else, such as installing complete new circuits or changing a fuse board for a consumer unit, is classed as ‘notifiable work’. This requires a Building Regulations application to be made in advance so the work can be inspected and checked. However, in most cases the electrician can self-certify their work as they’re normally registered with a body that gives them the necessary ‘registered installer’ status (also known as ‘competent persons’) such as the ECA (Electrical Contractors Association) or NICEIC (National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting).

"competent person" was changed to "skilled person" in 18th edition.

I'm a competent person, but NOT a skilled person as I have only C & G level 2 .

A grey area is C/U changes, fit a new one it comes under building regs. change the innards it doesn't, IE remove 2 x RCD and 10 MCB and replace with 10 RCBO.

After I finished all the work on our house I got a good electrician to do a full EICR.

Part P is for cowboy kitchen fitters.
Hated by the professionals.

 

[chaser]

Why has someone who has been doing their own electric for 50 odd years without any problems got to have some failed electrician come to inspect their own work in their own house?

 

[The Artilleryman]

Because the electrician should be up to date with all the changes to the regs. They will have to do an exam on the new amendment to keep there registration.

I was at college upto the C-19 shutdown (18th edition amendment 1), now we are on amendment 2, big change I missed was csa of earthing cables to out buildings - cost a lot when you need 39m of swa.

 

[Hoovie]

Gadget John should stop reinventing the wheel for views, too dangerous. One of the best online YT resource is
EXPLORIST.life. For our friends from across the pond he explains things clearly although for the US market only.

I would need to disagree there. I have not watched those two for quite a few years. I used to enjoy their original channel but then Nate suddenly became an expert on electrical systems and started promoting quite poor designs and incorrect information. I recall having a brief conversation with him regarding one video which badly described and totally exagerated the benefits of Lithium Batteries over Lead (according to Nate, you need Lithium as a Lead Battery will be lucky to last 12 months in an RV due to the limited service life).
I gave up watching them due to the poor quality of info, albeit very smoothly and professional presented (a good pitch doesn't mean what is said is good).

Not sure what John has fitted is reinventing the wheel? Yes, the electrics setup is quite advanced compared to the typical van build, but nothing he has installed is not on the market.

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[Gizmouk]

Because the electrician should be up to date with all the changes to the regs. They will have to do an exam on the new amendment to keep there registration.

I was at college upto the C-19 shutdown (18th edition amendment 1), now we are on amendment 2, big change I missed was csa of earthing cables to out buildings - cost a lot when you need 39m of swa.

You're supposed to refer to it as "IET Tax"

Top tip: Keep a copy of the latest On Site Guide in the van.

 

[autorouter]

No, the solder is not holding the joint, the crimp is, the solder is only to fill the miniature cavities that exist under normal crimping (just a touch of solder nothing more) then crimped again while under heat, this enables 99.9% none resistance, the joint then shrinks when cooling to enable stronger hold, idea of this kind of joint is to reduce resistance nothing more, the compression and the shrink holds the joint in place, these are crimps at either end, never, ever in the middle.

This is nothing to do with jointing resistance, it is all about longterm reliability. Aircraft and vehicles are a vibration-prone environment, and this causes longterm reliability problems unless mitigated. For example, house wiring uses single solid core copper cables, but vehicles always use stranded cables. You can use a solder joint in a house if you want, but solder joints on any cable, stranded or solid, have been shown to have reliability problems in a vibration-prone environment. A well-made solid crimped joint has just as low resistance as a soldered joint - nobody is saying it is better. But it's the long-term reliability that is the reason for using crimps and not solder. Because it's a statistical, probabilistic thing it's possible you have got away with it for years, especially if you take the trouble to fix the cables to reduce vibration. I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others, and the incident and crash reports.

 

[Nedge68]

6m of 6AWG (16mm) is only good for 15A should have been at least 25mm for 30A and 50mm for 60A. Ecoflow have got the sizes very wrong.
Expecting a domestic electrician to wire up a 12v system is not a good idea, as I have said before, just because it is low voltage system you really need to know what you are dealing with, at high current resistance is your enemy, connections and joints need to be spot on.

 

[Hoovie]

6m of 6AWG (16mm) is only good for 15A should have been at least 25mm for 30A and 50mm for 60A. Ecoflow have got the sizes very wrong.
Expecting a domestic electrician to wire up a 12v system is not a good idea, as I have said before, just because it is low voltage system you really need to know what you are dealing with, at high current resistance is your enemy, connections and joints need to be spot on.

those cable sizes are way over the top.
Have you ever seen a 60A B2B cabled up with 50mm2 cable by a professional conversion company or motorhome manufacturer?

 

[Nedge68]

Just used an online calculator…

DC Cable Size Calculator | Fabhabs

Easy calculator to size DC cables based on their length, current, and citcuit voltage. Ideal for 12V and 24V systems such as campers, van conversions, and solar projects. Need to know how thick a cable needs to be for a solar panel, fridge, battery, or motor? Use this calculator to find out.

www.fabhabs.com

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[Lenny HB]

those cable sizes are way over the top.
Have you ever seen a 60A B2B cabled up with 50mm2 cable by a professional conversion company or motorhome manufacturer?

I don't agree, his cable sizes are correct if you want to keep losses to under 3%.

Most B2B installations have much shorter cable runs than 6m, most under 2m so you could use 16 mm2.

 

[Nedge68]

i Think limiting the current to 25-30A would be sensible. I will try and find an IET table for cable sizes.

 

[Hoovie]

I don't agree, his cable sizes are correct if you want to keep losses to under 3%.

So back to my question .... have you EVER seen a commercially produced motorhome with 50mm2 cable for a 60A B2B?
Your new motorhome ... what size B2B will it have? and what cable is being used to connect it to starter, leisure and ground? I would be interested to know.

 

[Lenny HB]

So back to my question .... have you EVER seen a commercially produced motorhome with 50mm2 cable for a 60A B2B?
Your new motorhome ... what size B2B will it have? and what cable is being used to connect it to starter, leisure and ground? I would be interested to know.

You need to read my post probably. I said "Most B2B installations have much shorter cable runs than 6m, most under 2m so you could use 16 mm2."

 

[Hoovie]

Just used an online calculator…

DC Cable Size Calculator | Fabhabs

Easy calculator to size DC cables based on their length, current, and citcuit voltage. Ideal for 12V and 24V systems such as campers, van conversions, and solar projects. Need to know how thick a cable needs to be for a solar panel, fridge, battery, or motor? Use this calculator to find out.

www.fabhabs.com

so using that calculator would actually UNDERSIZE cables for some uses. use a 4mm for a Compressor Fridge on a 6M run and you will get an high voltage drop on the compressor surge and unless the battery is maybe 80% SOC, you will have a battery that is fine but a fridge that reports low voltage.

Next, for the typical B2B installation, most installers (including Professional installers) use the chassis as a common ground. Using your online calculator again, check the cable needed for a 60A B2B with a chassis return instead.
Also, you will probably have put the voltage as "12V"? You won't be driving the B2B at 12V from the alternator, but between something like 13.8 - 14.5V. That makes a fair old difference as well.

When using a tool to work out sizes, it is important to enter ALL the factors in.

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[Hoovie]

You need to read my post probably. I said "Most B2B installations have much shorter cable runs than 6m, most under 2m so you could use 16 mm2."

No. I said have you ever seen a 60A B2B with cable 50mm2. the question of length was not mentioned by me.
Actually, to get a decent performance on a 60A B2B on a 2M length you need better than 16mm2. I would go for 25mm2 If I were expecting it to run at 60A for an extended duration. 16mm2 will work but the cable will get fairly warm, ans aas you know, heat = waste.


PS. Just looked at your post and you don't say the above at all in relation to your reply to my reply to the guy who said need 50mm2 cable.

 

[Lenny HB]

Also, you will probably have put the voltage as "12V"? You won't be driving the B2B at 12V from the alternator, but between something like 13.8 - 14.5V. That makes a fair old difference as well.

A smart alternator may only be outputting 12.4v under certain conditions.
I think it's irrelevant what manufacturers do we all know they cut corners to save money particularly British ones. I had a look at a Autosleeper's electrics for someone yesterday, it was frightening how undersized the wiring was.

Just because the professionals do it wrong it doesn't mean we have to.

 

[Nedge68]

No, but I have never seen a commercially produced motorhome with a 60A B2B, ours is 20A, but it also only has a lead acid leisure battery. lf you upgrade to Lithium and your B2B to 60A you need to rate the cables to suit, How would You calculate the size then? As Lenny says the sizes keep volt drop to 3% which is the normal acceptable limit.

 

[Hoovie]

No, but I have never seen a commercially produced motorhome with a 60A B2B, ours is 20A, but it also only has a lead acid leisure batter. lf you upgrade to Lithium and your B2B to 60A you need to rate the cables to suit, How would You calculate the size then? As Lenny says the sizes keep volt drop to 3% which is the normal acceptable limit.

As per my previous notes which probably crossed paths.

 

[Nedge68]

I was commenting on GJ installation where he has a 6m length this is very important factor, and there are many others that can cause you to de-rate the cable. The IEE on-site guide is lacking when it comes to DC installs.

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