I did say used vehicle, theirs was new and also not the op btw
Camper NE go bust
- Thread starter wiljoy
- Start date
I did say used vehicle, theirs was new and also not the op btw
True in this case. It was more of a general comment in relation to buying from anywhere including well known dealers.
If someone puts finance on your vehicle after you bought it then their claim over the vehicle has to be void. The finance house should have done their due diligence.
Peter
Peter
Needless to say that any purchase from us that was paid for in full, the buyer would have full and legal title as to ownership. All our vans are paid for and have no liens on them and have a full HPI clear check which is clipped to the sales invoice
Peter
Peter
Subscribers do not see these advertisements
Last edited:
Langtoftlad
LIFE MEMBER
- Apr 12, 2011
- 9,425
- 165,433
- Funster No
- 16,024
- MH
- WildAx Aurora FB [PVC]
- Exp
- Since 2015
What form of evidence/proof would that legal title take...? The registration document isn't AFAIK.
It seems from this case, that a receipt/invoice isn't sufficient.
Being pedantic, surely that HPI Clear Check is only valid up to the date it was made - wouldn't stop you refinancing if you were so minded, after the event.
Are we getting to the stage - especially as some MH's can be as expensive as a house - that we need something equivalent to the Land Registry?
I worked in the boat trade and became aware of similar practice.
If I was buying from a dealer I would ask the details of who they had their stocking plan with and would contact them to see if they had an interest in the van.
I had become aware copy builder certs handed to owners and the originals still with the finance house,
In more recent times the finance have become a bit more savvy and carry out spot audits of stock.Problem is this doesn't take into the account if item is bought out of season and stored foc at the suppliers premises.
If I was buying from a dealer I would ask the details of who they had their stocking plan with and would contact them to see if they had an interest in the van.
I had become aware copy builder certs handed to owners and the originals still with the finance house,
In more recent times the finance have become a bit more savvy and carry out spot audits of stock.Problem is this doesn't take into the account if item is bought out of season and stored foc at the suppliers premises.
I hesitated to comment again on this thread. The law on this is too complicated to explain concisely. You can look up the exceptions to the "nemo dat quod non habet" rule on the interwebby. I glanced at my old edition of The Sale of Goods by Professor P S Atiyah and there is a very long chapter on this topic.
In the majority of normal circumstances a consumer who buys a new MH from a dealer is a bona fide purchaser for value and gets a good title to the MH even if the dealer doesn't own it. In the case of a used MH a clear HPI check is still necessary.
Today, the biggest risk of getting ripped off is the problem caused by finance companies offering loans against the security of vehicle using a Bill of Sale, commonly called logbook loans.
It was recognised as a problem which was unfair and the Treasury said that the government would bring in new legislation to deal with it. It was even announced in the Queen's Speech.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/treasury-acts-to-change-unfair-law-around-logbook-loans/
Despite all the necessary preparatory work having been done by the Law Commission, last year Mrs May's government decided not to introduce new legislation to deal with this problem. I think that is disgusting.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/bills-of-sale/
In the majority of normal circumstances a consumer who buys a new MH from a dealer is a bona fide purchaser for value and gets a good title to the MH even if the dealer doesn't own it. In the case of a used MH a clear HPI check is still necessary.
Today, the biggest risk of getting ripped off is the problem caused by finance companies offering loans against the security of vehicle using a Bill of Sale, commonly called logbook loans.
It was recognised as a problem which was unfair and the Treasury said that the government would bring in new legislation to deal with it. It was even announced in the Queen's Speech.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/treasury-acts-to-change-unfair-law-around-logbook-loans/
Despite all the necessary preparatory work having been done by the Law Commission, last year Mrs May's government decided not to introduce new legislation to deal with this problem. I think that is disgusting.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/bills-of-sale/
The legal title is our receipted invoice plus current HPI certificate showing no finance, not stolen and no accident recorded damage
We as a dealer could not take out finance after the event, as a private person any reputable finance company would run a credit check on the applicant, too many checks would throw up a rat
I do not know how Camper NE refinanced sold vans, it could well be that they did not pay off the vans on stocking although the monthly stock check should have shown up any disreparancies in stock levels.
New vans would be registered on HPI by their chassis number and once on first registration with a new reg number with DVLA, I believe an auto message goes to HPI who would notify the stocking finance provider
Some very dodgy dealings were happening somewhere along the line, I am sure the FCA and the Fraud Squad will be investigating
Peter
Langtoftlad
LIFE MEMBER
- Apr 12, 2011
- 9,425
- 165,433
- Funster No
- 16,024
- MH
- WildAx Aurora FB [PVC]
- Exp
- Since 2015
Obviously this has been perfectly acceptable, especially from reputable traders such as yourselves... but actually this issue has brought to light that there is no definitive proof of ownership
.When you bought a house, the deeds were your proof of ownership, usually held by the building society until the mortgage was paid off, then you had to keep them somewhere safe as they were the only proof... now of course done electronically.
Should there not be a similar system for vehicles - if only a line on the V5C & a record with the DVLA ?
Registered Keeper
Registered Owner
Subscribers do not see these advertisements
Jim
Ringleader
Posts that bought another company name into this thread have been deleted. Thanks
For years the HPI system has been used in the motor trade without a problem and can be relied upon, unfortunately crooks in collusion with others have fraudently abused the system
One should go to a dealer/supplier that uses a reputable finance house, I doubt if this scenario would have happened if Lombard, Black Horse or Barclays would have been the provider
Peter
One should go to a dealer/supplier that uses a reputable finance house, I doubt if this scenario would have happened if Lombard, Black Horse or Barclays would have been the provider
Peter
- Jan 28, 2008
- 10,321
- 18,833
- Funster No
- 1,353
- MH
- Renalt burstner
- Exp
- 7 years campers before that
@Barclaybasher might disagree with you on the last one peter
- Apr 13, 2012
- 5,929
- 20,300
- Funster No
- 20,541
- MH
- Mobilvetta Euroyacht
- Exp
- 1996, then break 'til 2011
A few years ago I looked into Ebay motorhome scams, the scammers most used bank accounts were by guess who?
Trust Barclays?.....................
Langtoftlad
LIFE MEMBER
- Apr 12, 2011
- 9,425
- 165,433
- Funster No
- 16,024
- MH
- WildAx Aurora FB [PVC]
- Exp
- Since 2015
Up until now, it never would have occurred to me that a franchised dealership would be selling be a vehicle they didn't own... it's like Tesco's selling me a box of Frosties... do I have to now check if they've taken finance out on it... especially if buying new...
Subscribers do not see these advertisements
- Sep 22, 2017
- 649
- 2,547
- Funster No
- 50,633
My god, what a nightmare! My sympathies to anyone who has been affected by this. Looks like you cant trust in anything or anyone anymore. It seems incredible that this can happen at all. I opened a new bank account last year and had to jump through hoops just to draw out three grand in cash, yet these arsholes can blatantly mug everyone for untold thousands at will it seems. Bloody disgusting!
Langtoftlad
LIFE MEMBER
- Apr 12, 2011
- 9,425
- 165,433
- Funster No
- 16,024
- MH
- WildAx Aurora FB [PVC]
- Exp
- Since 2015
Camper NE, the trading name of P&P Caravan Services Ltd...
Company Secretary & Director, a Mr Patrick Alexious CARLIN...
who also happens to be a director of;
Free Spirit Leisure Vehicles [Accounts overdue]
Geist Vehicle Leisure
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/wygr24zncR3oACqepaP1BmW9nWc/appointments
A search at Companies House this morning says that P&P Caravan Services Ltd is still active. On the Companies House webcheck there is nothing to indicate any kind of insolvency event or appointment has taken place, although the Registered Office address has been changed to 1 St James Gate Newcastle on 18 February - the same address as RSM (the Administrators - see below).
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05994264
The Gazette shows a notice of Appointment of Administrators on 01/02/2019. Not a liquidator. I cannot find anything to say that this company is in a winding-up which would involve appointment of a liquidator. What is really going on behind the scenes is not in the public domain.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3200056
The person with significant control of P&P Caravan Services Ltd, and active Director, is Patrick Joseph DOHERTY. Prior to June 2002 he held multiple Directorships in various major companies in the MH and Caravan sector. Mr Doherty ought to be well-known in the industry although personally I haven't heard of him before today.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/dr3nIRNVC-sTaPIQAmYPjYx8evg/appointments
Langtoftlad
LIFE MEMBER
- Apr 12, 2011
- 9,425
- 165,433
- Funster No
- 16,024
- MH
- WildAx Aurora FB [PVC]
- Exp
- Since 2015
IIRC but I can't find the link at the moment that Mr Doherty is Mr Carlin's Son in Law...
Subscribers do not see these advertisements
Hope these people get sorted on this issue, it can be soul destroying, just the other day I read a thread where they are not going to do motorhoming now because of the trouble they have had on buying a new and used Motorhome and having to try and get their money back due to “not fit for purpose” twice...!
Unfortunately our first van we bought was stolen and had a false identity on it and a HPI check on it came up “OK”..!
We lost over 16k, the dealer who we were informed by the police had also done this to at least five other people spent 2mths in prison out of a 6mth sentence ....
He probably had over 80k from these sales but the police investigation came up with “no funds to seize” and of course he owned nothing.... all in his wife and mothers name...
He was still trading while he was in prison...
The next two vans I bought were with members of this forum and handing over 50+k, it gave me some reassurance that I could see the postings and ramblings about there van on their travels and believe me I checked all I could...
Unfortunately our first van we bought was stolen and had a false identity on it and a HPI check on it came up “OK”..!
We lost over 16k, the dealer who we were informed by the police had also done this to at least five other people spent 2mths in prison out of a 6mth sentence ....
He probably had over 80k from these sales but the police investigation came up with “no funds to seize” and of course he owned nothing.... all in his wife and mothers name...
He was still trading while he was in prison...
The next two vans I bought were with members of this forum and handing over 50+k, it gave me some reassurance that I could see the postings and ramblings about there van on their travels and believe me I checked all I could...
Silver-Fox
LIFE MEMBER
This would surely come up on an HPI check would it not?
That being the case if you do a check it would show up as it’s not hidden.
Kannon Fodda
LIFE MEMBER
- Feb 26, 2019
- 2,980
- 9,102
- Funster No
- 58,768
- MH
- Autotrail V-line 540
- Exp
- I Make Schoolboy Errors!
If I were buying privately I'd do a HPI. But buying through a dealer, I wouldn't have done so before this thread. Most advertise that they have done the HPI for you, and ignorance being bliss I'd have trusted them.
Now this thread, and others that refer to build quality of new motorhomes being rather pants is seriously causing me to have second thoughts
Now this thread, and others that refer to build quality of new motorhomes being rather pants is seriously causing me to have second thoughts
It was a bit more than a 'technicality' when they had multiple vat visits from different inspectors over the years ,none of whom even raised the question.[/QUOTE]
Anyone who has taken the time to read in full the Tribunal's finding (as you obviously have done, Gus, but not sure that the OP can have) would agree that this is not just "getting off on a technicality".
Anyone who has taken the time to read in full the Tribunal's finding (as you obviously have done, Gus, but not sure that the OP can have) would agree that this is not just "getting off on a technicality".
Silver-Fox
LIFE MEMBER
Even if an HPI has been done by a trader it’s not transferable so always do your own
Subscribers do not see these advertisements
Shirelle quinn
Free Member
- Feb 28, 2019
- 11
- 33
- Funster No
- 58,807
Just to confirm I bought and paid cash for a brand new motorhome in sept 17 which wasn’t registered yet from Camper NE , last week as I was about to sell it the HPi came up with finance attached to it , according to the HPi the finance was taken out by Camper NE in January 2018 as a stocking loan against a van on their premises with my registration, I did actually have the van back there 5 times as they recalled it a few times and also told me I’d won a competition to have GardX applied , the finance company seen to think the van was financed at one of the times my van was back with camper NE , this is still on going with myself and the finance company and he seems happy that I have enough evidence to prove the van was mine at the time the finance was taken out , however I am still waiting for the finance attached to it to be quashed, I have also logged this with action fraud . It also seems that this is on a much bigger scale than I thought and there is at least 10 other motorhomes in the same boat as me , P&P caravans are still active ( Camper NE parent company ) however I think this is about to change very soon . I would definitely advise anyone who has purchased outright any motorhome old or new from Camper NE or P&P Caravans to do an HPI check ASAP , I still can’t get my head around how this was possible , I just hope it’s resolved very soon .
It is up to the logbook lender to notify HPI (or Experian or Cheshire Data Systems) about the finance secured against the vehicle by this method. That is entirely voluntary. The statutory Register of bills of sale is kept by the High Court. In order to search that Register for free you need the registration number of the bill of sale, which only the lender would know. Or, you can search against the name and postcode of the borrower, for a fee of £50. You can't search against the vehicle registration, so it is basically not fit for purpose.
The upshot is that if the logbook lender didn't notify HPI, the private buyer of that vehicle has no chance of knowing that a loan has been secured on it, and no legal protection against the lender.
Fortunately logbook loans mainly affect the used car and van market. I have not heard of it affecting the MH market but it can't be ruled out.
Bustup15
LIFE MEMBER
Free Spirit Leisure - accounts not yet overdue, the filed accounts make for sad reading though.
2004 they introduced £180000 share issue, to me that would imply they were doing something with the company otherwise why bother? £191k shareholder funds available.
2008 shows a loss of £229k....
hmmmm
Free Spirit
At some point about 2004 the directors introduced £180k share capital
In 2009 stock went from £330,000 to zero
Shareholder funds went negative (£500,000)
And continue in that vain more or less
To be fair it's not the accounts that are overdue but I think it's fair odds that they will be interesting reading after the issues at NE Campers if they do file.
And the same accountants RMT
Bustup15
LIFE MEMBER
Oh and Geist Vehicle owe P & P £229,000 in last years accounts
In Jan 2019 the other directors resigned leaving the deadly duo as the remaining directors of Geist
Is it just me or can others detect a strong smell of fish ....
3
34127
Deleted User
Thank you for your helpful posting.
To sum up all the posts I have read it would seem that there is no way a private individual can be 100% certain that there is no finance on the vehicle he/she is buying.
Can the finance be taken out on a vehicle by the seller, then the vehicle sold and the finance be notified to HPI or Experian after the sale of the vehicle. In which case a HPI check at time of purchase would show no finance.
Also would stock finance show up on a HPI check as a loan against a particular vehicle.
Subscribers do not see these advertisements
Join us or log in to post a reply.
To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun
Join MotorhomeFun
Join us, it quick and easy!
Log in
Already a member? Log in here.