Beating the 90/180 day Schengen rule

[jongood]

I took some time yesterday to look at the legislation which created the rules and its enforcement.

I only went so deep as there is a lot of it, and I am no longer a paid lawyer.

Firstly, very briefly, the Schengen Agreement was started by 5 countries and others joined later, including some but not all EU countries and also some non-EU countries. Its initial purpose was to agree free movement of the Citizens of Schengen States. The Agreement was separate from the structure of the EU. The EU adopted the Schengen Agreement by the Amsterdam Agreement of 1999 and requires EU Member States, but not all e.g. Cyprus, to adhere to Schengen Rules.

Aside from Schengen EU has always allowed EU Nation States to retain control of their borders.

Thus at present we have three parties involved in the control of these rules -

1 Schengen, including non-EU States e.g. Norway.

2 EU, which has some Schengen and some non-Schengen Members

3 Individual Nation States controlling their own borders. 'Competence' in EU-speak.

The EU and Schengen have laid down rules for entry and exit of Citizens from non-EU States. Howevr, we now have Nation States like France and Portugal allowing stays for non-EU citizens beyond the 90 days under the EU/Schengen rules. Fine one might say because the Nation States have retained their 'competence' to do this. This would be fine if the visas they issued were to confine the holders to time in thaqt state, but France in particular has announced that their visa permits entry to other Schengen States, but does not restrict that to the first 90 days from when they entered France, so also Schengen.

I have found no reference to whether EU/Schengen have accepted or are challenging the right of holders of these extended visas to breach the 90/180 rule.

Now we get to enforcement of EU/Schengen rules. EU's position is that it is for Nation States, not the EU, to enforce and fix penalties for breaches.

Obviously France and Portugal will not penalise a person for exceeding 90/180 when they hold a 180 day visa, but what will other countries do? Will they recognise the 180 day visa as exempting a holder for that period from the 90/180 rule and deem the 90/180 clock starts after that visa expiry date?

Thee are other complications brought about by the decision to issue visas which are not limited to one Nation State.

I think the issues are probably giving immigration authorities in several a few problems to solve. They might also want to form a united front on the issues but may find it hard to agree on one.

Then thee is the matter of training immigration personnel on the rules to be applied at their borders. This gets more complicated because there are EU Members that have territories within their jurisdiction which are not subject to EU/Schengen rules, e.g. France's oversees territories and even Norway's Svarlbad. Therefore there will be complex training needed, a big task.

My personal opinion is that the complications arising from having three parties involved in formulating how the different rules should be applied, together with the view of each Nation State and its implementation/training for policing the rules will make it difficult for them to enforce them.

I can foresee, at least in the near term, a very lax approach to how to deal with the situation.

We have already had some examples on this thread where apparent or potential breaches of the rules have not been pursued
by border officers.

I agree Geoff. I think they just want to retain the ability to enforce.

 

[Garry - June]

Too many Brit bars to start with....reduce the clientele and some have to go, also there is a staffing problem with seasonal workers no longer being here....another benefit of Br***t...

Except Bre**t has no bearing on seasonal workers as you can simply apply for a working visa.

 

[jumar]

Except Bre**t has no bearing on seasonal workers as you can simply apply for a working visa.

Where here in Spain... temporary work visa...for residents or non residents?

 

[Darling]

This is very interesting. Thanks to all the posters. Before Brexit we regularly spent about 3 months touring various countries. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. We'll obviously have to curtail our wander lust now and make sure we're back in the 90 days. Shame as we liked the freedom before of just making it up as we went along.
A while ago there was some discussion on having to have a return ferry/tunnel booked before you leave the UK. Is that true?

No we travel to Spain twice a year on the ferry and don’t have a return ticket and friends do the same flying we book our return whilst in Spain

 

[Coolcats]

Except Bre**t has no bearing on seasonal workers as you can simply apply for a working visa.

I am not going to argue the rights and wrongs pro or against, one thing the 90/180 rule has done is introduced barriers which means 'simply' applying for a work visa and other changes has dissuaded (and other measures) a heck of a lot of people from being seasonal workers this can be seen in the drop in available workforce from what had previously been an easy way for employers to obtain a workforce in the uk and harder for UK individuals to work in the EU. So yes implementing the B word has had an impact on the available labour force in the UK and from the UK to the EU, you may find this positive or negative depending upon your viewpoint.

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[ghiaguy]

I posted this on another thread on this topic.

If you come into France from UK, or other non-Schengen country, your details are recorded in the shared Schengen computer. If you leave Schengen from France after 270 days or so your details will have to be entered into the same computer and it will show an overstay.

How will the Schengen computer and the French authorities cope with the overstay alarm?

Are the French authorities just going to waive you out without recording your exit, in which case you remain an overstayer?

Nobody gave me an answer to this problem.

Geoff

The answer is you get a fine and possibly a ban, rightly so.

 

[ghiaguy]

So we have just entered France via the tunnel and transited through France and Spain into Portugal how do they know where I am as we have had no further border checks?

Your British number plate, but you can stay naive.

 

[ceejayt]

The law, like taxes, is there to achieve a certain end - very often they make no sense and seem unfair (the 90/180 being an excellent example or taking 50p off people on Universal Credit for every extra £1 they earn).

You can complain about it, you can adopt the 'rules are rules' position or you can choose to break them.

The REAL issue is how do you ever change them? Unfortunately, even the ballot box will probably not achieve that much.

 

[Chris CM]

That’s my point. The only checks on your passport are at point of entry and exit from U.K. I’m sure there’s a way of tracking your vehicle’s movement across borders and there may be a way of linking passports to vehicles but we’re getting into deep state surveillance stuff there and I doubt the bloke in the box at Calais has the password for that particular database!

I noted on a recent trip between France and Spain over the Pyrenees, at the “disused” border posts a plethora of Cameras, no doubt some are ANPR type so yes, it probably is possible to track certain (UK?) vehicles over borders, just depends how enthusiastically they want to enforce the Schengen/French visa rules!

 

[Speve]

Your British number plate, but you can stay naive.

I’m not naive? As I’ve no intention of overstaying just stating a fact as once over the border Without checks there are local roads that hardly have signs let alone cameras?

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[Dwarfland]

Your British number plate, but you can stay naive.

Your number plate isn’t linked to your passport…and if you’re one of the people who believe they biometrically scan your eyes as you drive through a border at 70, what if I’m wearing shades, have the sun visor down, my wife is sitting in the back etc etc? When you pass through an open border in a vehicle, no one knows you’ve done that, believe me.

 

[Ian.s]

Six months are possible without visas. It’s 90 days in 180. Let’s say you fly out 1st of January Have a day or two in your chosen county. Fly back and the clock starts ticking. Then travel out in the MH for the last 88 days or so of your first 180 days. On the last few days fly back exit the country see your family etc. Then fly back and start the first of you next 90 days in 180. Not as complicated as it seems and six months with a trip to see the folks back home in between

 

[62272]

Your number plate isn’t linked to your passport…and if you’re one of the people who believe they biometrically scan your eyes as you drive through a border at 70, what if I’m wearing shades, have the sun visor down, my wife is sitting in the back etc etc? When you pass through an open border in a vehicle, no one knows you’ve done that, believe me.

It is extremely unlikely that ANPR would be used for these purposes, given the time delay for any authority interested in seeing what you were doing X months ago. Its hard enough to do for a murder investigation when you can understand the resources could be used for that.

 

[Dwarfland]

I’ve read all the responses to my experience and conclude-

1. A France visa allows you to spend up to 180 days in the country. It’s a multi entry visa. TLS confirmed in numerous occasions that you can exit into neighbouring countries. No mention was made of having to return to U.K. then re-enter Schengen.

2. I received conflicting advice but my belief is that time spent in neighbouring countries would decrement your 90 visa free days…

3. However when exiting through open borders no one knows you’ve left France anyway. Yes your vehicle will be registered by border cameras but there is no link to occupants passports.So as long as you’re within 180 days and enter and exit through France, the 90 days is irrelevant.

4. Can you tag the 90 Schengen days onto your 180 visa days? Not sure on this one. My personal view is that you’d get away with it but it may depend on the French border official. People are getting hung up on this one but how many people want 9 months anyway?

5. I’m still not convinced that France or any other country really cares about U.K. overstayers. My own experience and that of people I spoke to while away suggests not, but that’s just my opinion.

6. I’m surprised by the attitude of some on here to what could be termed at worst bending rules or pushing their limits. People saying overstayers ‘should have the book thrown at them’ etc baffle me. You’re not committing an offence which harms anyone. It’s finding a way around a piece of bureaucracy which is highly likely to be changed at some point. Why the anger at people who attempt that? If you don’t want to risk it then stick to the 90 days. If, like me, you think it’s doable, go ahead and enjoy your longer trip!

 

[Speve]

Six months are possible without visas. It’s 90 days in 180. Let’s say you fly out 1st of January Have a day or two in your chosen county. Fly back and the clock starts ticking. Then travel out in the MH for the last 88 days or so of your first 180 days. On the last few days fly back exit the country see your family etc. Then fly back and start the first of you next 90 days in 180. Not as complicated as it seems and six months with a trip to see the folks back home in between

But how have you got over the 90 days at home ? Once 90 day in schengen are up you have to stay out for 90 days in your scenario you will still not qualify for another 90 until you have been out for 90 ?

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[Ian.s]

But how have you got over the 90 days at home ? Once 90 day in schengen are up you have to stay out for 90 days in your scenario you will still not qualify for another 90 until you have been out for 90 ?

You don’t have to be at home for 90 days. It’s 90 days in 180. The clock stars ticking on your first day. So take the last 88 days of your first 190 having started the clock ticking by a quick flight out 90 days earlier and then the first 90 of your next 180

 

[SSILVO]

What you have actually done though is entered Spain illegally, without permission. You haven't entered the Schengen zone, you have entered Spain illegally. The fact you have driven through a border is irrelevant. You could have swam in the sea across the border, but in doing so would also have entered Spain illegally. There are lots of ports you can sail a boat into, but you must report yourself to the Authorities as wishing to enter their country. Driving across a border is no different, you must present yourself to the Authorities.
The only real thing at issue here is how it would be dealt with

Good point but what if he enters Spain legally spends 90 days ...then goes to France reporting his entry under 6 month visa hence getting stamped ..after which he will have reneiwed his time under the 90 180 rule meaning he can stay in schengen for a year...he would have a entry / exit visa from Spain stopping the shengen clock and entry visa on French visa then after the period exit rto UK with a visa stamp saying he left.

 

[NoName]

I see a lot of debate on how to stay in the EU Schengen zone for more than the 90/180. Lots of discussion on Morocco and Croatia, not much on getting a 6 mth visa. I got a French one which I believe in allows me to stay in Schengen for that period, then the usual 90 days kicks in. There’s some discussion on whether it only covers France but with open borders across EU, if I enter and exit through France I don’t see that being a problem. It is a lot of red tape to wade through and you need to be able to demonstrate you have funds to support you through your stay, but it’s definitely do-able.I’m in Spain now and intending to stay in EU longer then 90 days on my French visa. More info on getting a French visa here-

Long Term EU Visa for UK Motorhomers - DriverAbroad.com. - DriverAbroad.com.

Staying in EU For more than 90 days, Long Term Visa for UK passport, Long Term EU visa for motorhome, how to stay in EU for more than 90 days,

driverabroad.com

I recently returned from a 4 1/2 month tour of Europe and Turkey taking in 11 countries, as well as entering Greece,Italy, Spain and France twice.
At no point did I have any problems with overstaying. At Calais the French passport control looked at the various entry/exit stamps and made no comment, just waved me through.

 

[90585]

My understanding is that your French visa is exactly that, France only, just like the Spanish one is Spain only. Otherwise it would be a Schengen visa.

Yes it would be difficult with a French one to be caught unless you entered a non Schengen country, like Croatia where there are still border checks, but it does not make it legal to overstay the 90 in Schengen area and if caught the penalties could be high I suspect.

Make the decision & enjoy your stay

I read the post you attached and it is simply not true to suggest a visa allows unlimited travel anywhere within the Schengen area, a French visa or Spanish visa is exactly that, not a Schengen visa. You could spend 90 days anywhere in Schengen area, then 90 to 180 days in France only followed by a further 90 days anywhere in Schengen area.

The article quotes “However, it is possible to obtain a Visa which will allow UK citizens to travel within the Schengen zone for 6 months /180 days.”

Hi Roy.

I live in France so I thought I would point out a few things in the hope it can help.

First thing I wish to point out is you a technically correct, but in reality wrong, if that makes sense? I will explain.

A Schengen visa is for the the Schengen zone not just France, A little unknown fact is everyone in the EU has a limit of 90 days in a country they don't live in, So a French guy who travels to Spain technically has 90 day limit. The reason it's never unforced is because the open borders, if the police wanted to prove an over stay, they have very little to go on, it would take thousands of euros to prove an over stay, so it's just not worth it, so they don't bother. There is some small print in the Schengen border rules and free movement rules that state so long as the person after 3 months is not a burden on the state they are ok to remain, but I'm trying to not get to technical but would be happy to go into more details if asked.
There are a number of cases around the EU where EU citizens have been removed, Many have been Polish who have over stayed in Belgium & France (without registering to become a resident) but they can simply return, so again it's pointless but it's done more to prove a point rather than having permanent outcome.
The point I'm making is similar to the old law in the UK (which I think has now been removed in the past few years I think) Were technically you had to carry a bail of hay in a black cab taxi, but the reality was you never did, and it was never enforced.
So if you have a Visa issued in France (it will be a Schengen visa btw) you can spend all the time with that visa in Spain. I have French residency and spent over 100 days during the winter in Spain and so did my French friends, technically we were all breaking the law, but as none of us were a burden on the state technically we were not. So you can see why the authorities don't go there, they have better things to do.

Hope that helps?

 

[Speve]

You don’t have to be at home for 90 days. It’s 90 days in 180. The clock stars ticking on your first day. So take the last 88 days of your first 190 having started the clock ticking by a quick flight out 90 days earlier and then the first 90 of your next 180

I don’t think that’s quite correct is it?as the whole thing is rolling 90 days so wherever your 90 ends you have to be out for a further 90?

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[MarionK]

Six months are possible without visas. It’s 90 days in 180. Let’s say you fly out 1st of January Have a day or two in your chosen county. Fly back and the clock starts ticking. Then travel out in the MH for the last 88 days or so of your first 180 days. On the last few days fly back exit the country see your family etc. Then fly back and start the first of you next 90 days in 180. Not as complicated as it seems and six months with a trip to see the folks back home in between

But is that when they start counting? I've always thought it was a 'rolling' 180 day period. Otherwise it'd be 182/365.

 

[Ian.s]

I don’t think that’s quite correct is it?as the whole thing is rolling 90 days so wherever your 90 ends you have to be out for a further 90?View attachment 652598

Read the very top line. 90 in 180. So you fly in Jan 1st fly home Jan 2nd. Your night days have started. Fly back out end of March and continue your ninety days. When that is complete you have travelled 90 days in 180. Now statist your first thre months of your next 180. It does work.

 

[Speve]

Read the very top line. 90 in 180. So you fly in Jan 1st fly home Jan 2nd. Your night days have started. Fly back out end of March and continue your ninety days. When that is complete you have travelled 90 days in 180. Now statist your first thre months of your next 180. It does work.

Sorry will have to agree to disagree on this one and it’s going to be an expensive way of doing things with all the flights
you need to read the whole paragraph
sothis is the calculator what have gained as you can still only stay 90 and leave 90

 

[Ian.s]

But is that when they start counting? I've always thought it was a 'rolling' 180 day period. Otherwise it'd be 182/365.

It is rolling. Refer to my first comment. Fly out for one day. Start the clock ticking. Fly back straight back home. Then go back and complete the 90 days of the first 180. Then go home. Then start the 190 days again. The first 90 of the second 180

 

[Ian.s]

Sorry will have to agree to disagree on this one and it’s going to be an expensive way of doing things with all the flights
you need to read the whole paragraph

I have. I’m also doing it. You have put in your calculations three months from the first of Jan. That not what I said. Fly out 1st Jan fly back 2nd. The clock has started ticking. Drive back out in your MH at the end of March and stay near three months. Stil 90 day in 180. Then repeat in Reverse Do the first 90 days of your next 180. As for costs. I didn’t say it was cheap. But is cheaper than taking the MH back and forth

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[Speve]

It is rolling. Refer to my first comment. Fly out for one day. Start the clock ticking. Fly back straight back home. Then go back and complete the 90 days of the first 180. Then go home. Then start the 190 days again. The first 90 of the second 180

So what are you doing from 3/01/23 to 31/3 have you gone back with your van? I’m still not convinced that you are right so you have had two day flying then a gap until you re enter stay 90 days then you still have to return for 90 so in effect you are only still getting 90 days
if it was that easy everyone could just go to France on the tunnel for the day in their car and do the same as you suggest
it does not work like that the 180 day period is continually rolling it does not have six month supposing period and reboot whenever you travel and finish is recorded so after 90 days you have to leave for 90 you cannot choos which end of the 180 you use to make two consecutive 90 days. dream on mate

 

[Ian.s]

So what are you doing from 3/01/23 to 31/3 have you gone back with your van?

It’s at home. In the uk. It’s left for a short time on its own. Jan 1st. Fly out have a long weekend. Fly back home. That will start the clock ticking April 1st drive MH into Europe for 78 days leave it at a park for three or four days your choice fly home and that will have completed your 90 in 180. Then return and complete your first 90 in the next 180 and drive MH back home.

 

[Speve]

It’s at home. In the uk. It’s left for a short time on its own. Jan 1st. Fly out have a long weekend. Fly back home. That will start the clock ticking April 1st drive MH into Europe for 78 days leave it at a park for three or four days your choice fly home and that will have completed your 90 in 180. Then return and complete your first 90 in the next 180 and drive MH back home.

The point being you still are not able to be there for 180 consecutive days

 

[Dwarfland]

Hi Roy.

I live in France so I thought I would point out a few things in the hope it can help.

First thing I wish to point out is you a technically correct, but in reality wrong, if that makes sense? I will explain.

A Schengen visa is for the the Schengen zone not just France, A little unknown fact is everyone in the EU has a limit of 90 days in a country they don't live in, So a French guy who travels to Spain technically has 90 day limit. The reason it's never unforced is because the open borders, if the police wanted to prove an over stay, they have very little to go on, it would take thousands of euros to prove an over stay, so it's just not worth it, so they don't bother. There is some small print in the Schengen border rules and free movement rules that state so long as the person after 3 months is not a burden on the state they are ok to remain, but I'm trying to not get to technical but would be happy to go into more details if asked.
There are a number of cases around the EU where EU citizens have been removed, Many have been Polish who have over stayed in Belgium & France (without registering to become a resident) but they can simply return, so again it's pointless but it's done more to prove a point rather than having permanent outcome.
The point I'm making is similar to the old law in the UK (which I think has now been removed in the past few years I think) Were technically you had to carry a bail of hay in a black cab taxi, but the reality was you never did, and it was never enforced.
So if you have a Visa issued in France (it will be a Schengen visa btw) you can spend all the time with that visa in Spain. I have French residency and spent over 100 days during the winter in Spain and so did my French friends, technically we were all breaking the law, but as none of us were a burden on the state technically we were not. So you can see why the authorities don't go there, they have better things to do.

Hope that helps?

Sensible post. A lot of folk on here won’t like it though

 

[Ian.s]

The point being you still are not able to be there for 180 consecutive days

Technically no. But you can with a very short break in between to start the clock. I’m in Texel just now. I shall restart my clock by travelling from the hook of Holland home. Buy some Marmite and tea bags and resume my travels next week at the beginning of my next 90 days

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