Beating the 90/180 day Schengen rule

[Ian.s]

Presumably you meant “I return home AFTER 88 days ….”?



I don’t understand what you mean by “use the first 90 …”

I think you’re saying that you were in Spain for 88 days, you then flew home for 2 days before returning to Spain again for 90 days. Is that correct?

If so, in a 180 day period you spent 178 days in Spain? Is that correct?

Ian

Nearly correct. Yes return home after 88…. To clarify or keep it simple. In 180 days I will go out and back in one or two days. Then return to Spain near three months later for 88 days. Now I have been in Spain for 90 days over a 180 day period. Full stop put that to bed. Now I decide to go to Spain again two days after I have got Ive returned home. I will now use 90 days of my next 180. I really don’t know how else to say it. I’ve been doing this. So far so good and it gives me near 6 months in one go with a trip home in the middle

 

[cmj01]

I see a lot of debate on how to stay in the EU Schengen zone for more than the 90/180. Lots of discussion on Morocco and Croatia, not much on getting a 6 mth visa. I got a French one which I believe in allows me to stay in Schengen for that period, then the usual 90 days kicks in. There’s some discussion on whether it only covers France but with open borders across EU, if I enter and exit through France I don’t see that being a problem. It is a lot of red tape to wade through and you need to be able to demonstrate you have funds to support you through your stay, but it’s definitely do-able.I’m in Spain now and intending to stay in EU longer then 90 days on my French visa. More info on getting a French visa here-

Long Term EU Visa for UK Motorhomers - DriverAbroad.com. - DriverAbroad.com.

Staying in EU For more than 90 days, Long Term Visa for UK passport, Long Term EU visa for motorhome, how to stay in EU for more than 90 days,

driverabroad.com

I wonder if there are European motorhome forums where they are debating how best to get round our tourist visa rules and find ambiguity. "If you enter the UK, and then get a ferry to Jersey, and then on to Ireland"...

 

[Billylou]

Hi Ian, you don’t get 2 lots of 180 days every year, you get a rolling 180 days in which you can take a maximum of 90 days. From what you’ve just describEd you have taken approximately 180 days in 180 days. If you have taken 90 days you’ll have to return home and wait another 90 days before returning. Ill leave it at that and hope it helps.

 

[Billylou]

I wonder if there are European motorhome forums where they are debating how best to get round our tourist visa rules and find ambiguity. "If you enter the UK, and then get a ferry to Jersey, and then on to Ireland"...

Unlikely as I believe, could be wrong, that they can have up to 180 days in a rolling 360 days. It is different coming into the UK.

 

[62272]

Hi Ian, you don’t get 2 lots of 180 days every year, you get a rolling 180 days in which you can take a maximum of 90 days. From what you’ve just describEd you have taken approximately 180 days in 180 days. If you have taken 90 days you’ll have to return home and wait another 90 days before returning. Ill leave it at that and hope it helps.

Yes you are right, sorry to say Ian, you cant put it to bed, it is always a case of looking back 180 days and counting no more than 90 in Schengen

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Stoosal]

Nearly correct. Yes return home after 88…. To clarify or keep it simple. In 180 days I will go out and back in one or two days. Then return to Spain near three months later for 88 days. Now I have been in Spain for 90 days over a 180 day period. Full stop put that to bed. Now I decide to go to Spain again two days after I have got Ive returned home. I will now use 90 days of my next 180. I really don’t know how else to say it. I’ve been doing this. So far so good and it gives me near 6 months in one go with a trip home in the middle

I really don’t think that’s correct Ian.....you need to count your 180 days backwards. You cant count the ‘next’ available 90 or 180 days. It is a rolling 180 day period which is counted retrospectively.....ie in any 180 day period you shouldn’t stay more than 90 days....if you count backwards using your dates from the end of September you are effectively staying for 180 days over the last 180 day period!

 

[bigtwin]

Nearly correct. Yes return home after 88…. To clarify or keep it simple. In 180 days I will go out and back in one or two days. Then return to Spain near three months later for 88 days. Now I have been in Spain for 90 days over a 180 day period. Full stop put that to bed. Now I decide to go to Spain again two days after I have got Ive returned home. I will now use 90 days of my next 180. I really don’t know how else to say it. I’ve been doing this. So far so good and it gives me near 6 months in one go with a trip home in the middle

That pattern clearly isn’t compliant with the requirements as has been shown by the calculator post presented earlier, and by a number of posters on this thread.

Of course, being non-compliant and being taken to task for it are two different things. However, if you’re a serial transgressor, the odds of being caught, and the ensuing penalties, are likely to be much higher than for those who transgress by a day or two.

Ian

 

[Ian.s]

I am compliant. However we shall agree to disagree. As a final point from me before I bow out I have had this discussion at border control and the very helpful young lady agreed. With the way I’m travelling. I will of course take further advice as I don’t want to ruin future trips. Oh and the calculator is correct but doesn’t have the correct dates in it. An enjoyable debate and I wish you good travels in what ever form they may take

 

[62272]

Visiting the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein

What to prepare for travel to the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein from 1 January 2021 and how long you can stay without a visa.

www.gov.uk

This may be of assistance?

 

[Ian.s]

I really don’t think that’s correct Ian.....you need to count your 180 days backwards. You cant count the ‘next’ available 90 or 180 days. It is a rolling 180 day period which is counted retrospectively.....ie in any 180 day period you shouldn’t stay more than 90 days....if you count backwards using your dates from the end of September you are effectively staying for 180 days over the last 180 day period!

I’m really not. I am not and have not stayed more than 90 days in any 180.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Garry - June]

All this talk about overstaying in the EU is quite funny...we go for our 90 days but by the time we get to around the 75/80 day mark we are really looking forward to coming home... some might travel around but sitting on a site for months and months on end as some do we would find soul destroying...

 

[gus-lopez]

Except Bre**t has no bearing on seasonal workers as you can simply apply for a working visa.

Not in Spain. It wouldn't be granted.

noted on a recent trip between France and Spain over the Pyrenees, at the “disused” border posts a plethora of Cameras,

On some it is over a fixed in each direction. Fascinates me what they are all for?

It’s finding a way around a piece of bureaucracy which is highly likely to be changed at some point.

Hopefullynot. Out is out.

You don’t have to be at home for 90 days. It’s 90 days in 180. The clock stars ticking on your first day. So take the last 88 days of your first 190 having started the clock ticking by a quick flight out 90 days earlier and then the first 90 of your next 180

It IS 90 in 180 but eith the ptovisk that you have to be out for 90 before you can return.

I don’t think that’s quite correct is it?as the whole thing is rolling 90 days so wherever your 90 ends you have to be out for a further 90?View attachment 652598

Exactly.

The point being you still are not able to be there for 180 consecutive days

. But you can with a very short break in between to start the clock.

No you can't.

Free movement of persons | Fact Sheets on the European Union | European Parliament

Read about the free movement of persons. Fact Sheets provide an overview of European integration and the role of the European Parliament.

www.europarl.europa.eu

this may help in regards to EU citizens and their spouses.

A EU citizen may stay indefinitely in another member states‘ country, but there are rules and requirements listed within the fact sheet (registration with authorities/not being a burden on the state etc…)

+ the EU citizen only allowed 90 days only haS to leave for 1day to reset the clock. The UK citizrn no longer has that right.

Does this rule apply to Southern Ireland?

Unfortunately not. Comes under Common Travel Area.(CTA)

Still I seem to be having a problem getting that across. Works for me

Probably because it is illegal.
Hopefully not for much longer.

I wonder if there are European motorhome forums where they are debating how best to get round our tourist visa rules and find ambiguity. "If you enter the UK, and then get a ferry to Jersey, and then on to Ireland"...

Not if they've ever been there.

 

[gus-lopez]

I’m really not. I am not and have not stayed more than 90 days in any 180.

You have when you use 88 at end of period out 3 days then back for any 90. Either you are atas or trolling .
It is a rolling 180. So March 's 88 days out for 2 or3 then in for another 90 is over 90 in the 180 that started on natch entry. January 1st and 2nd dropped off at start of march.
The fact that you might be getting away with it means people who are being paid hood money should be sacked

 

[OnlyMe]

I wonder if there are European motorhome forums where they are debating how best to get round our tourist visa rules and find ambiguity. "If you enter the UK, and then get a ferry to Jersey, and then on to Ireland"...

If there are, I bet there are self righteous prats on there admonishing them

 

[Ian.s]

You have when you use 88 at end of period out 3 days then back for any 90. Either you are atas or trolling .
It is a rolling 180. So March 's 88 days out for 2 or3 then in for another 90 is over 90 in the 180 that started on natch entry. January 1st and 2nd dropped off at start of march.
The fact that you might be getting away with it means people who are being paid hood money should be sacked

Looking at the gov site you’re right. It appears I have been getting away with it. Ignorance is not an excuse. It looks like I’ll be going to Asia for the next trip. Fortunately it doesn’t effect my plans. Thanks for the education everyone. As they say every day is a school day

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Skez]

If there are, I bet there are self righteous prats on there admonishing them

Nice start!

 

[62272]

Looking at the gov site you’re right. It appears I have been getting away with it. Ignorance is not an excuse. It looks like I’ll be going to Asia for the next trip. Fortunately it doesn’t effect my plans. Thanks for the education everyone. As they say every day is a school day

Youre not alone it is confusing until you get your head around it

Chas

 

[Stoosal]

Looking at the gov site you’re right. It appears I have been getting away with it. Ignorance is not an excuse. It looks like I’ll be going to Asia for the next trip. Fortunately it doesn’t effect my plans. Thanks for the education everyone. As they say every day is a school day

It’s a pain in the backside but hopefully it won’t ruin your plans. Hopefully we haven’t come across as too ‘self righteous’ or ‘prats’ in passing over the legislation so you can make your own decisions!

 

[Ian.s]

It’s a pain in the backside but hopefully it won’t ruin your plans. Hopefully we haven’t come across as too ‘self righteous’ or ‘prats’ in passing over the legislation so you can make your own decisions!

Not at all. It’s the purpose of a good forum. It’s been a great help. Not at any point did I feel anybody was rude or self righteous. My interpretation was wrong and thank all those that stuck it out. Onto new plans.

 

[Littlewheels]

Not at all. It’s the purpose of a good forum. It’s been a great help. Not at any point did I feel anybody was rude or self righteous. My interpretation was wrong and thank all those that stuck it out. Onto new plans.

Just to say l enjoyed you taking a stance and putting a strong case l thoroughly enjoyed the battle,good fun. It would have been good if you had convinced everyone.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Eyeballmike]

The rules for EU citizens is indefinite travel in the Schengen area with some limitations. I was born in UK, I have an Irish passport, my mother was Irish, therefore i am dual national. My wife only was a UK passport. I contacted the EU consulate, with a very specific set of questions relating to my circumstances. The thorough reply I had can be summarised as such. This might help others too. My wife shares the same privileges as me when travelling with me in the Schengen area. Because I am an EU citizen, not resident (very different things), we can travel indefinitely through Schengen, BUT we can only stay for 90 days in each member state. So as long as we cross a border every 90 days we can stay legally. You cannot stay in the Schengen or anywhere in the world more than 12 months in a UK registered vehicle, regardless of it requiring an MOT or not (new vehicle). The border guards can ask for proof of marriage certificate, but are not allowed to ask us proof of leaving, financial means or our itinerary / destinations. I currently renewed my full timing insurance with Comfort insurance who acknowledged I am covered for unlimited travel in Schengen.

 

[nicholsong]

The rules for EU citizens is indefinite travel in the Schengen area with some limitations. I was born in UK, I have an Irish passport, my mother was Irish, therefore i am dual national. My wife only was a UK passport. I contacted the EU consulate, with a very specific set of questions relating to my circumstances. The thorough reply I had can be summarised as such. This might help others too. My wife shares the same privileges as me when travelling with me in the Schengen area. Because I am an EU citizen, not resident (very different things), we can travel indefinitely through Schengen, BUT we can only stay for 90 days in each member state. So as long as we cross a border every 90 days we can stay legally. You cannot stay in the Schengen or anywhere in the world more than 12 months in a UK registered vehicle, regardless of it requiring an MOT or not (new vehicle). The border guards can ask for proof of marriage certificate, but are not allowed to ask us proof of leaving, financial means or our itinerary / destinations. I currently renewed my full timing insurance with Comfort insurance who acknowledged I am covered for unlimited travel in Schengen.

My understanding is that afer 90 days in a State one mus Register, but it is not necessary to leave.

 

[Eyeballmike]

If you are a citizen, yes you must leave after 90 days, if you are an EU resident the rules are different.

 

[nicholsong]

As I wrote in my post #240 AFAIK there have been no pronouncements from the EU as to how they view the relevance of a longer stay visa e.g. France and the Schengen rule of 90/180.

However I think I can see a way that one could utilise one's 90 day allowance in combination with a French 6-month visa.

That is to use the 90 days first. Obtain a 6-month French visa for say the period 1st May-31st Oct. Then take a ferry to Spain or Holland 90 days before that and cross into France on the 1st May, leaving from there before the 31st Oct. I canot see the French Immigration accusing one of anything if one is leaving after a French visa period.

Of course the Schengen computer would register one as being inside Schengen for >90 days, but so it would if one stayed in France for 6-months. We do not know what the authorities will do about that, if anything.

Maybe use of the Schengen computer records are awaiting full connection of all counties' systems, which could explain why apparent breaches of the rules are not being pursued. One could have left and re-entered Schengen via a country not connected and been inside the rules, so records are incomplete.

Does anyone know of an implementation date for full Schengen connectivity?

I welcome comments on these thoughts, especially using 90 days before a 6-month visa.

 

[62272]

If you are a citizen, yes you must leave after 90 days, if you are an EU resident the rules are different.

that’s not what the EU Schengen information says. Have a look at the link for on my earlier post (the one before last with the link on)

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Eyeballmike]

This is the direct reply from EU consulate on that very topic:-
If you wish to remain in a given country for more than 3 months, both you and your spouse may need to register your residence: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/index_en.htm

Please note that as you are an Irish citizen, this will not apply when you are travelling together to Ireland.

 

[Eyeballmike]

In fact here is the comprehensive reply in its entirety:-
Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.
A citizen of the United Kingdom does not, in principle, require a visa to travel for a short stay of no more than 90 days within any 180-day period in the Schengen area.

The fact that you as a citizen of Ireland live with your British spouse is, on its own, not sufficient to waive the limits of the 90/180-days rule if your spouse intends to travel within the Schengen area without you.

However, if you are travelling with your spouse to a Schengen country other than that of your nationality, or your spouse is joining you in such a country, the 90/180 days limitation does not apply. Accordingly, any stays in the Schengen area together with you will not be taken into account when your spouse travels again without you. Please be aware, however, that in this case your spouse might need to have documentation to show when you were travelling together and when you were not.

For further information, we recommend that you contact the authorities of the country you would like to travel to: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/embassies/index_en.htm

You can also find additional information here: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/brexit-travel-documents/index_en.htm

If you wish to remain in a given country for more than 3 months, both you and your spouse may need to register your residence: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/index_en.htm

Please note that as you are an Irish citizen, this will not apply when you are travelling together to Ireland.

As regards the proof of family ties, the Free Movement Directive does not lay down a list of documents that would be acceptable and essentially leaves to family members the choice of means of proof of family ties. While this does not exclude that a Member State may ask for specific documents, e.g. a marriage certificate to prove the existence of marriage, it means that the Member State should not refuse other means of proof.

This situation is also addressed in the Practical Handbook for Border Guards, specifically on pages 17-18: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/system/files_en?file=2019-10/c2019-7131-annex.pdf


We hope you find this information useful. Please contact us again if you have other questions about the European Union, its activities or institutions.​

 

[Carpmart]

The rules for EU citizens is indefinite travel in the Schengen area with some limitations. I was born in UK, I have an Irish passport, my mother was Irish, therefore i am dual national. My wife only was a UK passport. I contacted the EU consulate, with a very specific set of questions relating to my circumstances. The thorough reply I had can be summarised as such. This might help others too. My wife shares the same privileges as me when travelling with me in the Schengen area. Because I am an EU citizen, not resident (very different things), we can travel indefinitely through Schengen, BUT we can only stay for 90 days in each member state. So as long as we cross a border every 90 days we can stay legally. You cannot stay in the Schengen or anywhere in the world more than 12 months in a UK registered vehicle, regardless of it requiring an MOT or not (new vehicle). The border guards can ask for proof of marriage certificate, but are not allowed to ask us proof of leaving, financial means or our itinerary / destinations. I currently renewed my full timing insurance with Comfort insurance who acknowledged I am covered for unlimited travel in Schengen.

I’m in a similar position. My wife was born in Ireland and has always held an Irish passport, so I can fortunately travel, as you have indicated above, unencumbered by 90/180 rules…

I’ve a question, have you traveled as above yet? Our experience so far has been the UK passport is being stamped on entry and exit, which makes us (me) nervous that the border officials do not understand the rules.

 

[62272]

I’m in a similar position. My wife was born in Ireland and has always held an Irish passport, so I can fortunately travel, as you have indicated above, unencumbered by 90/180 rules…

I’ve a question, have you traveled as above yet? Our experience so far has been the UK passport is being stamped on entry and exit, which makes us (me) nervous that the border officials do not understand the rules.

You will find that whilst you are allowed to travel unencumbered, if your wife is not a current ‘resident’ of an EU country (just a citizen - i.e. Holds a passport) then you may need to obtain a visa as the spouse of an EU Citizen (to exceed the UK agreed 90/180 allowance). The issue of such a visa should be free, and issued within 15 days (according to the EU info). You technically can simply present yourself at the border with your EU spouse and request a short stay visa there and then (if you will be exceeding the 90/180 rule), but they advise against this, and advise to obtain a visa for the EU country to where you will be mainly spending most of your time’s consulate. The visa is under ‘family reasons’ not a visitor visa.

I don't know the case with Irish citizens, but it certainly seems to be the EU Schengen advice.

 

[Carpmart]

You will find that whilst you are allowed to travel unencumbered, if your wife is not a current ‘resident’ of an EU country (just a citizen - i.e. Holds a passport) then you may need to obtain a visa as the spouse of an EU Citizen (to exceed the UK agreed 90/180 allowance). The issue of such a visa should be free, and issued within 15 days (according to the EU info). You technically can simply present yourself at the border with your EU spouse and request a short stay visa there and then (if you will be exceeding the 90/180 rule), but they advise against this, and advise to obtain a visa for the EU country to where you will be mainly spending most of your time’s consulate. The visa is under ‘family reasons’ not a visitor visa.

I don't know the case with Irish citizens, but it certainly seems to be the EU Schengen advice.

Thanks for the reply. Have you somewhere this is referenced so I may read up?

This is contra to my current understanding. There are various EU directives which detail that close family do not need visas and May travel with the EU citizen who under the EU treaty has a right to roam.

Thanks…

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}