Beating the 90/180 day Schengen rule

[62272]

Thanks for the reply. Have you somewhere this is referenced so I may read up?

This is contra to my current understanding. There are various EU directives which detail that close family do not need visas and May travel with the EU citizen who under the EU treaty has a right to roam.

Thanks…

Hi

A quick google brings up these two docs:

EUR-Lex - 02004L0038-20110616 - EN - EUR-Lex

eur-lex.europa.eu

Your non-EU spouse and children's residence rights in the EU - Your Europe

You are an EU citizen moving to another EU country to live, work or study? Your spouse, children and grandchildren can join you, even if they are not EU nationals.

europa.eu

however my circumstances are slightly difference to yours.

I did a quick imaginary query on the French visa wizard using guestimated information (i.e. You are the spouse of a EU national (non resident), you can google French visa wizard (although all EU states will have information on this), and it states you do need a Visa to exceed 90 days in France accompanying your EU national spouse.

Hope that helps, it takes a bit if reading!

Chas

 

[Carpmart]

Hi

A quick google brings up these two docs:

EUR-Lex - 02004L0038-20110616 - EN - EUR-Lex

eur-lex.europa.eu

Your non-EU spouse and children's residence rights in the EU - Your Europe

You are an EU citizen moving to another EU country to live, work or study? Your spouse, children and grandchildren can join you, even if they are not EU nationals.

europa.eu

however my circumstances are slightly difference to yours.

I did a quick imaginary query on the French visa wizard using guestimated information (i.e. You are the spouse of a EU national (non resident), you can google French visa wizard (although all EU states will have information on this), and it states you do need a Visa to exceed 90 days in France accompanying your EU national spouse.

Hope that helps, it takes a bit if reading!

Chas

Hey Chas

I understand what you are referring to now. However, this is the wrong part of the document which is why you’re suggesting what you are. This refers to spouses and dependents moving to an EU member state, which is not the right to roam I am referring to, which is a different part of the document and is as I have indicated previously. Both are very different and indeed one would require a visa for these purposes.

 

[Billylou]

Hi Carpmart, I posted the info below sometime ago, it might be relevant in answering your question.
My wife is Irish and has an Irish passport, I have a UK passport. My understanding is you have the freedom to roam but you’d still need get permission to overstay 90 days in any one country. Happy to be corrected.



I contacted the website below, which claims it's an "official website of the European Union", asking the question regarding UK passport holders status if they have an EU spouse as I had heard you could legally over stay if you travelled together.

European Union gateway​

Home page europa.eu
europa.eu

This is the reply I received:

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

A citizen of the UK does not, in principle, require a visa to travel for a short stay of no more than 90 days within any 180-day period in the Schengen area.

The fact that you reside with your Irish wife the UK is, on its own, not sufficient to waive the limits of the 90/180-days rule if you intend to travel on your own to a Schengen Member State.

However, if you are travelling with your wife to a Schengen country, or joining her in a Schengen country, the 90/180 days limitation does not apply. Accordingly, any stays in the Schengen area together with her will not be taken into account when you travel again on your own. Please be aware, however, that in this case you might need to have documentation to show when you were travelling with her and when you were not.

For further information, we recommend that you contact the authorities of the country you would like to travel to: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/embassies/index_en.htm

You can also find additional information here: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/brexit-travel-documents/index_en.htm

If you wish to remain in a given country for more than 3 months, both you and your wife may need to register your residence: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/index_en.htm

Please note that as Ireland is not part of the Schengen area and because your wife is an Irish citizen, this may not apply if you wish to travel together to Ireland.

For information on the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK, please see: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/...n_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

We hope you find this information useful. Please contact us again if you have other questions about the European Union, its activities or institutions.

 

[jongood]

Just to say l enjoyed you taking a stance and putting a strong case l thoroughly enjoyed the battle,good fun. It would have been good if you had convinced everyone.

Especially the customs people?

 

[KatrinK]

Hey Chas

I understand what you are referring to now. However, this is the wrong part of the document which is why you’re suggesting what you are. This refers to spouses and dependents moving to an EU member state, which is not the right to roam I am referring to, which is a different part of the document and is as I have indicated previously. Both are very different and indeed one would require a visa for these purposes.

I very much have the same understanding as you in terms of right to roam, though trying to find correct, easy-to-understand information out there that relates to just travelling the EU has been quite cumbersome.

The EU Directive 2004/38 clearly states:

The right of all Union citizens to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States should [...] be also granted to their family members, irrespective of nationality.

We are currently on an extended EU adventure and not likely to return to the UK until Spring next year. I am expecting that our marriage certificate will satisfy border control.

This forum thread shows two "success stories" in that regard, so I am very hopeful we’ll be A-OK

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Eyeballmike]

No we have not yet travelled yet, but the border guards are allowed to stamp my wife's passport if they want. The stamp in the passport is just that, a stamp to say this UK passport has passed through this entry / exit point. The stamp does not alter the fact that my wife, while travelling with me has the same travel rights.

 

[Martist]

There's loads of wishful thinking going on here along with successful stories where the Schengen rules were not applied properly and people got away with it (but might not next time). A couple of things that get overlooked:
The Schengen visa is 90 days in ANY 180. The 180 is rolling, they are not one after the other. So choose any date of your planned trip, count back 180 days and as you do so tot up the number of days you will have been at your destination. If that date takes you over 90 it's not allowed. So if you arrange to use up your 90 days at the end of a 180 day period you cannot leave a Schengen country to the UK, turn round and start a new period of 90 days. You might have got away with it though!
Only my interpretation though!
Schengen rules can be strictly enforced and it's your reponsibility to get an entry/exit stamp
A foreign student friend got a single entry Schengen visa for an educational trip to Sweden. On her way back to her country she dropped in to Germany for a few days on a domestic flight. When she left she was arrested, fined and banned for several years from re-entering. They argued that her visa wasn't valid for Germany and that even if there was no border control on her arrival it was her responsibility to get her passport stamped.
Sometimes Schengen rules can be less strictly enforced
A few years ago I gave a Turkish family a holiday in the UK, coming over land. Going back I took them to Switzerland. Leaving Switzerland there was lots of hums and hars and confused looking officials but they let us through. Italy wouldn't let us in! And Switzerland wouldn't let us back! We hadn't noticed that the family's visas were single entry and that we had used that up by entering Switzerland. They said that I could continue but the family couldn't. Eventually someone had the bright idea of showing our Italy - Turkey ferry tickets and after much telephoning they let us through.

 

[Dogsense]

Schengen experts, please advice if my Travel Plan is accepted for the Schengen Rules.
Example:
From 4/01-17/02 in Schengen 45 days Spain & Portugal
From 17/02-24/03 out of Schengen (35d) Morocco
From 24/03-17/04 in Schengen 25 days Spain & France
From 17/04-15/06 out of Schengen (59d) UK
From 15/06-4/07 in Schengen 20 days to Scandinavia
total Schengen 90 days in 180 days

Then Staying in Schengen Scandinavia with out new stamp in passport
From 4/07-20/09 in Schengen 79 days (off the new 180 days)
Or shall I do 20 +70 days in Scandinavia?
HELP

 

[Garry - June]

Schengen Calculator - Easily Track Your Schengen Stay Compliance

Quickly check how long you can stay in the Schengen Area with our free and accurate Schengen Visa Calculator. Stay compliant with visa rules—plan your trip today!

www.schengenvisainfo.com

 

[Speve]

Schengen experts, please advice if my Travel Plan is accepted for the Schengen Rules.
Example:
From 4/01-17/02 in Schengen 45 days Spain & Portugal
From 17/02-24/03 out of Schengen (35d) Morocco
From 24/03-17/04 in Schengen 25 days Spain & France
From 17/04-15/06 out of Schengen (59d) UK
From 15/06-4/07 in Schengen 20 days to Scandinavia
total Schengen 90 days in 180 days

Then Staying in Schengen Scandinavia with out new stamp in passport
From 4/07-20/09 in Schengen 79 days (off the new 180 days)
Or shall I do 20 +70 days in Scandinavia?
HELP

I think you will find you have to have a complete 90 days out of schengen to reset as it is continually rolling have you tried putting it all into the calculator?

Schengen Calculator - Easily Track Your Schengen Stay Compliance

Quickly check how long you can stay in the Schengen Area with our free and accurate Schengen Visa Calculator. Stay compliant with visa rules—plan your trip today!

www.schengenvisainfo.com

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Speve]

Schengen experts, please advice if my Travel Plan is accepted for the Schengen Rules.
Example:
From 4/01-17/02 in Schengen 45 days Spain & Portugal
From 17/02-24/03 out of Schengen (35d) Morocco
From 24/03-17/04 in Schengen 25 days Spain & France
From 17/04-15/06 out of Schengen (59d) UK
From 15/06-4/07 in Schengen 20 days to Scandinavia
total Schengen 90 days in 180 days

Then Staying in Schengen Scandinavia with out new stamp in passport
From 4/07-20/09 in Schengen 79 days (off the new 180 days)
Or shall I do 20 +70 days in Scandinavia?
HELP

Another point to look out for is you cannot use the same date for exiting and the re-entering so out on 17/4 and back on 18/4 is ok but not in and out on same date

 

[nicholsong]

Schengen experts, please advice if my Travel Plan is accepted for the Schengen Rules.
Example:
From 4/01-17/02 in Schengen 45 days Spain & Portugal
From 17/02-24/03 out of Schengen (35d) Morocco
From 24/03-17/04 in Schengen 25 days Spain & France
From 17/04-15/06 out of Schengen (59d) UK
From 15/06-4/07 in Schengen 20 days to Scandinavia
total Schengen 90 days in 180 days

Then Staying in Schengen Scandinavia with out new stamp in passport
From 4/07-20/09 in Schengen 79 days (off the new 180 days)
Or shall I do 20 +70 days in Scandinavia?
HELP

As I see it the first part is indeed 90 in 180 days but the 79 days in Scandinavia is not doable, because although the first 45 will be OK as the 45 days in Spain and Portugal progressively drop off the beginning of the rolling 180 days, from day 46 in Scandinavia the 25 days in Spain and France will have not started to drop off, before 24/09.

That is my take on it, by mental arithmetic. Apologies if wrong.

 

[bigtwin]

I doubt that’ll work but best to input the data into a Schengen calculator to definitively find out.

Ian

 

[Speve]

Here’s a screen shot of the dates that you could do

 

[TDub49]

As I see it the first part is indeed 90 in 180 days but the 79 days in Scandinavia is not doable, because although the first 45 will be OK as the 45 days in Spain and Portugal progressively drop off the beginning of the rolling 180 days, from day 46 in Scandinavia the 25 days in Spain and France will have not started to drop off, before 24/09.

That is my take on it, by mental arithmetic. Apologies if wrong.

Schengen experts, please advice if my Travel Plan is accepted for the Schengen Rules.
Example:
From 4/01-17/02 in Schengen 45 days Spain & Portugal
From 17/02-24/03 out of Schengen (35d) Morocco
From 24/03-17/04 in Schengen 25 days Spain & France
From 17/04-15/06 out of Schengen (59d) UK
From 15/06-4/07 in Schengen 20 days to Scandinavia
total Schengen 90 days in 180 days

Then Staying in Schengen Scandinavia with out new stamp in passport
From 4/07-20/09 in Schengen 79 days (off the new 180 days)
Or shall I do 20 +70 days in Scandinavia?
HELP

What Dogsense said. The simple calculation is to look at the last day you expect to be in the Schengen Zone and count back 180 days from there, then total up the actual days spent in the Schengen Zone in that period. So, for your dates above, counting back from what I assume is 20/09/23, your latest rolling 180 day period in the area is from 25/03/23 to 20/09/23. From the dates given for being in the zone during that period, you will have clocked up 124 days in 180 - I guess the border police might be interested in that figure. . . .

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Speve]

What Dogsense said. The simple calculation is to look at the last day you expect to be in the Schengen Zone and count back 180 days from there, then total up the actual days spent in the Schengen Zone in that period. So, for your dates above, counting back from what I assume is 20/09/23, your latest rolling 180 day period in the area is from 25/03/23 to 20/09/23. From the dates given for being in the zone during that period, you will have clocked up 124 days in 180 - I guess the border police might be interested in that figure. . . .

The simple way is to use the schengen calculator

 

[62272]

There is no wiping the slate clean involved.

you constantly count back 180 days (as everyday advances) and you must not be able to count more than 90 days in Schengen within the 180 days period.

of course you can just plan it in advance by counting, or using the calculators if you are not sure

 

[jumar]

I think everyone should, irrespective of age return to work immediately...therefore the Schengen 90/180 days would be of no interest to them.
A few days over New Year.
Easter, Spring Bank holiday late spring BH..a few more.
Three weeks main summer holidays..
Christmas...a few days if lucky..
Well that's it....cannot muster 90 day out of that lot in one whole year...
I didn't, like others have such as scheduled...I was restricted...but I never got 2x 90 day in a whole year....
So these restricted periods everyone chants on about are age related... discrimination I call it....the younger ones are not affected...so unfair...
that's life I suppose...State pension, Cold weather payment, Free bus pass....that makes up for it.....or does it...

 

[Speve]

I think everyone should, irrespective of age return to work immediately...therefore the Schengen 90/180 days would be of no interest to them.
A few days over New Year.
Easter, Spring Bank holiday late spring BH..a few more.
Three weeks main summer holidays..
Christmas...a few days if lucky..
Well that's it....cannot muster 90 day out of that lot in one whole year...
I didn't, like others have such as scheduled...I was restricted...but I never got 2x 90 day in a whole year....
So these restricted periods everyone chants on about are age related... discrimination I call it....the younger ones are not affected...so unfair...
that's life I suppose...State pension, Cold weather payment, Free bus pass....that makes up for it.....or does it...

It is what it is IMHO just make the most of what you can have

 

[62272]

I think everyone should, irrespective of age return to work immediately...therefore the Schengen 90/180 days would be of no interest to them.
A few days over New Year.
Easter, Spring Bank holiday late spring BH..a few more.
Three weeks main summer holidays..
Christmas...a few days if lucky..
Well that's it....cannot muster 90 day out of that lot in one whole year...
I didn't, like others have such as scheduled...I was restricted...but I never got 2x 90 day in a whole year....
So these restricted periods everyone chants on about are age related... discrimination I call it....the younger ones are not affected...so unfair...
that's life I suppose...State pension, Cold weather payment, Free bus pass....that makes up for it.....or does it...

I’ve given it 5 minutes of thought…. And whilst I cannot deny there are some positive merits to your suggestion….no thank you!!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Twos company]

I got my passport stamped today in Santander the border control gave me no option my wife has an eu Irish passport I showed them our marriage certificate but not enough to avoid the stamp on my passport
Duffie

 

[Langtoftlad]

Seems odd that otherwise law abiding citizens think it's okay to break this one...
...because it's simply inconvenient.

 

[Littlewheels]

All this toing and froing with trying to work out how many days in the 90/180 the confusion …….. no body appears to have worked it out……the French/Spanish border controls are in exactly the same position and generally couldn’t give a toss, they stamp your Passport and off you go.

 

[Coolcats]

They are probably awaiting the introduction of the biometric passport controls which will make every ones life easier

 

[EuroTrotters]

We were last in Spain In mid June for two weeks.

Due to go September 17th.

But the Schengen calculator cannot be saved and I have to input everything from this and last year.

There is not, as far as I can see. An official EU calculator.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Dutch 68]

I very much have the same understanding as you in terms of right to roam, though trying to find correct, easy-to-understand information out there that relates to just travelling the EU has been quite cumbersome.

The EU Directive 2004/38 clearly states:



We are currently on an extended EU adventure and not likely to return to the UK until Spring next year. I am expecting that our marriage certificate will satisfy border control.

This forum thread shows two "success stories" in that regard, so I am very hopeful we’ll be A-OK

Same here, I have included copy of marriage certificate when I hand the passports, wife’s passport still get stamped, they have no interest in the marriage certificate, had no one giving us any trouble so far, we have been back on the Uk for last 6 weeks, but will be on our way again in 10 days and will not be back till Christmas

 

[nicholsong]

We were last in Spain In mid June for two weeks.

Due to go September 17th.

But the Schengen calculator cannot be saved and I have to input everything from this and last year.

There is not, as far as I can see. An official EU calculator.

Trev

I wonder whether immigration officers have access to a Schengen calculator?

Maybe when the full ETIAS system is up and running(late 2023?) and fully linked through all Schengen countries it will automatically ring alarm bells when a passport is scanned. Even so I bet there are false alarms and people delayed/detained unnecessarily.

 

[nicholsong]

Seems odd that otherwise law abiding citizens think it's okay to break this one...
...because it's simply inconvenient.

I have been living with my EU Citizen partner for 11 years and feel entitled to travel with her unrestricted, but the law I would have broken, in my book, would be not to have got married.

I might mock up a Polish 'Marriage Certificate', which I doubt whether any Immigration Officers would be able to spot, except a Polish one, but I only need my Polish Residency card to come and go to/from Poland unfettered.

 

[Spriddler]

I have been living with my EU Citizen partner for 11 years and feel entitled to travel with her unrestricted, but the law I would have broken, in my book, would be not to have got married.

I recall a time when non-European men and women used an 'introduction service' to find and be married to a British resident for a few days just to be allowed to get into the U.K. and live and work here.

 

[Speve]

We were last in Spain In mid June for two weeks.

Due to go September 17th.

But the Schengen calculator cannot be saved and I have to input everything from this and last year.

There is not, as far as I can see. An official EU calculator.

From what I can see this is as good a calculator as any and it’s not very difficult to put dates in

Schengen Calculator - Easily Track Your Schengen Stay Compliance

Quickly check how long you can stay in the Schengen Area with our free and accurate Schengen Visa Calculator. Stay compliant with visa rules—plan your trip today!

www.schengenvisainfo.com

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}