A Frame Disaster

[TonyEmm]

2014 Tony, last year they made them I believe.
I did have a look in my workshop to see if I had the old cross member, but I have chucked it.

Thanks olley The one I have an issue with is a 2010. I was hoping to compare!

 

[chaser]

Don't see where anyone is pointing their finger at anyone apart from the op who started it off.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

No consolation if you are killed or injured by someone else's freedom of choice . . . .

You can bravely say that about any life choice, snap decision, planned action etc. etc……….. so a bit of a pointless comment

 

[Realist]

Do NOT make any references to the company! The owners are trying their best to open lines of communication. If they refuse, legal action WILL follow…. This is serious,

Your barking up the wrong tree again Tony no company was mentioned for that very reason although I do know who they are and I’m not saying just to give the lady ammunition for her case and not to but a spanner in the works.

My personal opinion on A frames is they are safe if used correctly but the subframe MUST have sufficient extra support put in place to counter the pulling of such a device. I will admit hence the reason I placed the original post here on MHF was to give members such info to a badly designed frame the facts.

All info will come out in the end and I wish the original complainant all the best in their case.

 

[gus-lopez]

The removal of testing for towing is nonsense. You should need to be licensed to tow.
years ago part of the police traffic testing involved reversing a mini artic, single rear wheel trailer, at aconstant 30mph ,whilst zig -zagging through cones.

but the subframe MUST have sufficient extra support put in place to counter the pulling of such a device.

And that is where they become illegally modified vehicles in breach of the origial certificate of conformity.

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[Realist]

The removal of testing for towing is nonsense. You should need to be licensed to tow.
years ago part of the police traffic testing involved reversing a mini artic, single rear wheel trailer, at aconstant 30mph ,whilst zig -zagging through cones.

And that is where they become illegally modified vehicles in breach of the origial certificate of conformity.

Yes your removing the front cross member and replacing it with a stronger modified version.

Ok you argue such modifications by strengthening the cross member may cause it not to crush under impact and the threaded bars may cause more injuries during such an impact.

The above have not been proven.

But just welding the threaded bar to the original cross member is of a risk than replacing it with a fit for purpose design.

 

[Minxy]

Interesting thread, whilst I appreciate the OP posted the info for members to be aware of he needs to ask himself why he fully posted another person's comments in such a way as to show who had made those comments without asking if he could do so. Asking permission IMV is vital when it comes from a 'private' forum elsewhere - if it had been mentioned WITHOUT showing who had originally made the comments it wouldn't be as bad, alternatively the OP could instead have written his own post based on what he read rather than quote from another private forum.

As for us not commenting on this thread then that's a non-starter - if you start a thread or make a post it is open to any funster to respond to in whatever way they want (respectfully!). Fortunately no-one has actually named the company involved but even if they had I seriously doubt if it would have any effect on the situation for the parties involved anyway, they have bigger things to deal with than the chattering on this forum or any other and the musings of a few funsters certainly won't make any difference.

 

[Pausim]

On an overrun system the breakaway cable is normally a multi strand wire Bowden cable and when separating will apply a ratchet system to ensure brake stays on.
With a non overrun system , eg the RVi brake unit as I use the breakaway cable pulls a removable peg from a switch mounted on the front of the car which immediately powers the brake unit to stop the car which stays on until manually switched off.

Agreed, the point I was trying to make was that the ratcheted handbrake will have no effect if it is still attached to the motorhome not the car that has broken off the A frame. I may need to take another look at RVi Brake after reading this posting but could not find a UK agent for them. However I know my A frame attaches to a purpose made beam not the towing eyes.

Pausim As I stated my breakaway cable is more than strong enough to hold my car.

A breakaway cable is designed to apply the brake and then break away. My TAF A frame has a secondary cable coupling that would hold the car behind the motorhome if it uncouples. However again it would not help if the car broke away from the A frame rather than the A frame breaking away from the motorhome.

 

[TonyEmm]

Your barking up the wrong tree again Tony no company was mentioned for that very reason although I do know who they are and I’m not saying just to give the lady ammunition for her case and not to but a spanner in the works.

My personal opinion on A frames is they are safe if used correctly but the subframe MUST have sufficient extra support put in place to counter the pulling of such a device. I will admit hence the reason I placed the original post here on MHF was to give members such info to a badly designed frame the facts.

All info will come out in the end and I wish the original complainant all the best in their case.

I’m not barking up the wrong tree! You have announced more than once you know who they are. What I’m saying is, mention no-one.

 

[TonyEmm]

Interesting thread, whilst I appreciate the OP posted the info for members to be aware of he needs to ask himself why he fully posted another person's comments in such a way as to show who had made those comments without asking if he could do so. Asking permission IMV is vital when it comes from a 'private' forum elsewhere - if it had been mentioned WITHOUT showing who had originally made the comments it wouldn't be as bad, alternatively the OP could instead have written his own post based on what he read rather than quote from another private forum.

As for us not commenting on this thread then that's a non-starter - if you start a thread or make a post it is open to any funster to respond to in whatever way they want (respectfully!). Fortunately no-one has actually named the company involved but even if they had I seriously doubt if it would have any effect on the situation for the parties involved anyway, they have bigger things to deal with than the chattering on this forum or any other and the musings of a few funsters certainly won't make any difference.

We’ll have to beg to differ on the last part of your post. That’s why I’ve asked Jim to either close or remove the thread.

all forums are full of armchair experts and lawyers! Speculation is not helping the unfortunate owners cause. It needs to be stopped.

I shall certainly update the group when I know it is legally safe to do so!

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[Larrynwin]

Agreed, the point I was trying to make was that the ratcheted handbrake will have no effect if it is still attached to the motorhome not the car that has broken off the A frame. I may need to take another look at RVi Brake after reading this posting but could not find a UK agent for them. However I know my A frame attaches to a purpose made beam not the towing eyes.



A breakaway cable is designed to apply the brake and then break away. My TAF A frame has a secondary cable coupling that would hold the car behind the motorhome if it uncouples. However again it would not help if the car broke away from the A frame rather than the A frame breaking away from the motorhome.

Ah I get your point on the breakaway and yes my Towtal also has a Bowden cable loop over the towball as a secondary security.

I bought my RVi Brake 2 direct from https://rvibrake.com/collections/shop as Towtal where I had the a frame fitted let me down. The link may help but what shipping costs would be I don’t know but they were very helpful and from memory buying direct was cheaper than getting it from Towtal.

 

[Minxy]

We’ll have to beg to differ on the last part of your post. That’s why I’ve asked Jim to either close or remove the thread.

all forums are full of armchair experts and lawyers! Speculation is not helping the unfortunate owners cause. It needs to be stopped.

I shall certainly update the group when I know it is legally safe to do so!

In which case, although I appreciate your posting on the other forum was meant to be educational, perhaps it would have been better NOT to post anything about it at all until they had reached a resolution. Once the 'cat' is out of the bag it's very difficult to keep it 'restrained'.

 

[TonyEmm]

In which case, although I appreciate your posting on the other forum was meant to be educational, perhaps it would have been better NOT to post anything about it at all until they had reached a resolution. Once the 'cat' is out of the bag it's very difficult to keep it 'restrained'.

My post on the other forum was done at the request of the owner, it was not my decision!
I am assisting them with their case, I can say no more at this stage! But I’ll agree, once the cork is out of the bottle, as the owner has now realised, it’s virtually impossible to contain!

 

[Minxy]

My post on the other forum was done at the request of the owner, it was not my decision!
I am assisting them with their case, I can say no more at this stage! But I’ll agree, once the cork is out of the bottle, as the owner has now realised, it’s virtually impossible to contain!

You could have said no or that it wasn't wise which based on your comments on here seems to be your view, to be fair though the owners should have kept stum and not mentioned it, or at least not for it to be published - I have every sympathy with them but sometimes you just have to keep quiet about stuff even though you feel like you have to tell someone.

 

[Jackd]

We’ll have to beg to differ on the last part of your post. That’s why I’ve asked Jim to either close or remove the thread.

all forums are full of armchair experts and lawyers! Speculation is not helping the unfortunate owners cause. It needs to be stopped.

I shall certainly update the group when I know it is legally safe to do so!

You being one of them from look of things.
Between you and the OP, you have dug a hole in a public place and then told the rest of us not to look in!

I also noticed that since you asked Jim to remove the post, you have posted another 3 or 4 times. Hardly allowing the post time to naturally fall off the front page. Interesting tactic.

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[TonyEmm]

You being one of them from look of things.
Between you and the OP, you have dug a hole in a public place and then told the rest of us not to look in!

I also noticed that since you asked Jim to remove the post, you have posted another 3 or 4 times. Hardly allowing the post time to naturally fall off the front page. Interesting tactic.

Thank you for the heads up, different forums work different ways, I hadn’t appreciated it kept it on the front page! I shall take note….

 

[monzer]

as the owner has now realised, it’s virtually impossible to contain!

It's a minor legal quibble not a worldwide pandemic

 

[Realist]

I’m not barking up the wrong tree! You have announced more than once you know who they are. What I’m saying is, mention no-one.

I know Tony ok stop barking on about it for god sake let people decide for themselves your not a government or god for Christ sake .

 

[monzer]

 

[Conal]

Pausim Thanks for the clarification. My large multi-strand cable must be a Bowden cable

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[Cookieboy68]

The original post was mine, on a private Facebook group.

while I’m keen to spread the word about towing safety (it is after all, a 30 year campaign of mine) now is not the time to say too much.

The owner is trying to open a line of communication with the original supplier of (brand new) car and a-frame. Currently, all they have received is a tirade of abuse over the phone. They have another opportunity. If that’s not taken, then the discussion may able to open up.

I note from some of the posts, folk are referring to the breakaway cable as if it were an inertia braked trailer. It wasn’t. This was an electronic braked a -frame.

Even with a catastrophic Incident like this, there should have been emergency braking to at least stop the car, there wasn’t. This was not user error.

Hopefully, I shall be able to discuss it further in due course.

I would appreciate if any speculation is kept to yourselves for now. Give the owners of the vehicle a chance to have a meaningful conversation with the company,

Thanks Guys!

I need that emoji

 

[pelican]

If the cable is attached to the a-frame then even when the a-frame leaves the car wouldn't the cable still be attached to the car in some way and thus be pulled tight? If not it wouldn't be able to put the brakes on anyway. Not had an a-frame so not sure how the brakes are applied on the car.

The breakaway cable goes to the car's brake-pedal

 

[Pausim]

The breakaway cable goes to the car's brake-pedal

The breakaway cable goes from the towing vehicle to the A frame. It is designed to break away having pulled the brake on but the Bowden cable from the A frame to the brake pedal will go slack as soon as the A frame is torn off the front of the car.

 

[Platelet]

What’s transpired is they used the original subframe and just welded the fixing points to that hence why they pulled away, no extra strength features what so ever.

Not all A frame suppliers carry out such poor work and some actually change the whole front end that’s been strengthened and modified to stop such a disaster.

But what gets to me is selling a A Frame with no break away cable or means to stop it if it comes away from the Motorhome.

Poor design and yes a disaster waiting to happen.

Now we wait for the OP to let everyone know the supplier, I’m not I’m just passing on vital info.

To not have a breakaway cable is actually illegal, as it’s classed as a trailer plus if over 750kgs it requires brakes!

 

[Platelet]

The issue I have with this is that if, my mum, a lorry, a tractor, a anything meets you head to head on a road you are expecting them to reverse. Why? That to me is not how it should be, both parties should be able to reverse. I understand those that possibly aren’t good at it, but it should be a possibility. I can reverse a trailer, so am happy to tow one if required. I would not tow one if I could not reverse it.

To reverse a car on an a-frame requires the steering lock to be operating otherwise the wheels turn to the full lock automatically. The forces applied to the vehicle mounting points is huge and standard screw-in eye mounts is not capable of those.

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[Landy Andy]

To reverse a car on an a-frame requires the steering lock to be operating otherwise the wheels turn to the full lock automatically. The forces applied to the vehicle mounting points is huge and standard screw-in eye mounts is not capable of those.

And that is why they should not be allowed on the road.

it is like me saying I can drive past the school at 60mph, because I’ve got a race car, and it doesn’t go slow.

 

[Platelet]

The breakaway cable on each of mine has been attached to the front of the car behind the bumper , not to the a frame .

Sorry but that sounds lethal to me, as a metal projectile doing a possible 60mph, the tow hitch/a-frame becomes detached from the towing vehicle with no brakes, unless it’s a cable of 10/11/12/13mm diameter and a good anchorage on the car, that car is going to go anywhere it pleases!

 

[pelican]

The breakaway cable would not be strong enough to hold the car and would break. Without the A frame hand b

The breakaway cable goes from the towing vehicle to the A frame. It is designed to break away having pulled the brake on but the Bowden cable from the A frame to the brake pedal will go slack as soon as the A frame is torn off the front of the car.

Thank you---- Yes I am aware of that.

 

[Larrynwin]

And that is why they should not be allowed on the road.

it is like me saying I can drive past the school at 60mph, because I’ve got a race car, and it doesn’t go slow.

Don’t like them then ? and how many accidents have been caused as a result of flat towing with a frames , perhaps in comparison to accidents with caravans in tow .
More unnecessary scaremongering based on a personal opinion . Perhaps you could provide a link to statistics of accidents linked to a frame towing.

 

[Platelet]

Ah I get your point on the breakaway and yes my Towtal also has a Bowden cable loop over the towball as a secondary security.

I bought my RVi Brake 2 direct from https://rvibrake.com/collections/shop as Towtal where I had the a frame fitted let me down. The link may help but what shipping costs would be I don’t know but they were very helpful and from memory buying direct was cheaper than getting it from Towtal.

Breakaway cables should not be looped “over” tow balls as they can slip off!!

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