A Frame Disaster

[JockandRita]

A quick tip for anyone trying to reverse a trailer is to grip the wheel with one hand at the "six o'clock" position and to make the trailer go left, move your hand to the left and vice versa.

As a towing instructor for the Brigade, (when not on Firefighting duties), I used to give my students the same tip, but at twelve o'clock, and for those who couldn't get the hang of that, I'd wrap a piece of red insulation tape round the top of the steering wheel, at the twelve o'clock position, so they knew exactly when the front wheels were in the straight ahead position, at the start of the reverse, and any deviation from that point would soon see the trailer in either mirror.
I was amazed at the number of folks with a (pre 97) B+E and C1 licence, who had never towed, but were expected to do so without any training.
That's how we came to have a twin axle Fire Safety Exhibition Unit (heavy old trailer), overturn on the A47, still attached to the the Land Rover County 110, which ended up on it's nose.

It seems it can be done satisfactorily ?

I happen to know the owner and driver of that outfit, and I can tell you that he is an experienced HGV Class 1 driver (like myself), which is why it looked relatively easy, ie, practice makes perfect.

Thought that this may interest / amuse.
In Oz, they do this with triples and quads!

A lot of those types of trailers have a locking mechanism (manually engaged, or electrically from the cab), to lock the trailer wheels so as to assist in reversing. Rear steering axles on trailers here in the UK/EU have a similar locking device which is usually on the reversing light electrical circuit, or can be locked by lowering the trailer's rear suspension.

I do feel for those affected by the incident, and do wish them well in pursuance of a satisfactory outcome for them.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Pausim]

If the cable is attached to the a-frame then even when the a-frame leaves the car wouldn't the cable still be attached to the car in some way and thus be pulled tight? If not it wouldn't be able to put the brakes on anyway. Not had an a-frame so not sure how the brakes are applied on the car.

On many the breakaway cable pulls the A-frame hand brake on, which in turn pulls the bowden cable attached to the car’s brakes. Without the A frames handbrake there is nothing to hold the car brakes on. Very similar to caravans and trailers with overrun brakes. The same applies to the alternative secondary coupling for trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg. Both these methods are designed to work when the main coupling between the towing vehicle and trailer/toad separates, as required by regulations. They do not allow for the trailer breaking away from the frame.

I believe some of the electronic systems would be able to brake the car by detecting the separation.

 

[Larrynwin]

How would a breakaway cable help if it is attached to the A frame still dangling on the back of the motorhome? Most are designed to operate when the frame separates from the towing vehicle not when the frame separates from the trailer/car.

The breakaway cable on each of mine has been attached to the front of the car behind the bumper , not to the a frame .

 

[Puddleduck]

I happen to know the owner and driver of that outfit, and I can tell you that he is an experienced HGV Class 1 driver (like myself), which is why it looked relatively easy, ie, practice makes perfect.

My Dad told me reversing a trailer was easy - so I asked him to reverse mine into a parking spot at a builder's merchant (many many years ago).

After a couple of failed attempts he got out and went to sort out the order leaving me to deal with the car and trailer. I don't know how he had done it but the vehicles were wedged so that the only way I could see to remove them safely was to unhitch the trailer - which i did - and then re-hitch and reversed it in correctly. The man in the yard came across to help load up and said he would never say women couldn't drive again

After that he refused to drive a car with trailer ever again.

For me the secret is to make sure you have wheels straight to start with, then take it slowly being aware of everything that is happening around you.

 

[TonyEmm]

On many the breakaway cable pulls the A-frame hand brake on, which in turn pulls the bowden cable attached to the car’s brakes. Without the A frames handbrake there is nothing to hold the car brakes on. Very similar to caravans and trailers with overrun brakes. The same applies to the alternative secondary coupling for trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg. Both these methods are designed to work when the main coupling between the towing vehicle and trailer/toad separates, as required by regulations. They do not allow for the trailer breaking away from the frame.

I believe some of the electronic systems would be able to brake the car by detecting the separation.

Absolutely correct, but this was an electronic activated system! Installed correctly, the car would not have run away…

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[cyberyacht]

As I'm getting closer to 80 than I like, I've started pondering a TOAD. Given the problems "over there", ISTM that a trailer is the real solution and an A frame is a sort of UK quick fix. The additional outlay and hassle dissuades me atm and I think I'd be more likely to go for a mini moho that I could park anywhere.

 

[Minxy]

On many the breakaway cable pulls the A-frame hand brake on, which in turn pulls the bowden cable attached to the car’s brakes. Without the A frames handbrake there is nothing to hold the car brakes on.

Ah, so the brakes would be applied when the cable was pulled tight due to the A-frame departing but as soon as it slackened, eg the car got closer to the A-frame when the towing vehicle slowed, the brakes would release.

 

[Realist]

Ok I’ve mentioned many times here not to point fingers and start speculating on things people know nothing about, I started this thread for information reasons only.

If you can’t act like adults don’t post simple.

Just respect the above and wait until Monday, Tuesday for the effected car to pass comment and then we will all see what direction it will take.

Regards.

 

[Minxy]

Ok I’ve mentioned many times here not to point fingers and start speculating on things people know nothing about, I started this thread for information reasons only.

If you can’t act like adults don’t post simple.

Just respect the above and wait until Monday, Tuesday for the effected car to pass comment and then we will all see what direction it will take.

Regards.

Unfortunately/fortunately depending on your point of view once you start a post you have no control over the subsequent content, the ONLY sure way is not to post it in the first place regardless of your reasons for doing so.

 

[TonyEmm]

As I'm getting closer to 80 than I like, I've started pondering a TOAD. Given the problems "over there", ISTM that a trailer is the real solution and an A frame is a sort of UK quick fix. The additional outlay and hassle dissuades me atm and I think I'd be more likely to go for a mini moho that I could park anywhere.

It’s cheaper to hire a car ‘over there’! No extra ferry or tunnel charges, no motorway tolls, and you’ll get where you want to go quicker!

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[Puddleduck]

It’s cheaper to hire a car ‘over there’! No extra ferry or tunnel charges, no motorway tolls, and you’ll get where you want to go quicker!

We've done that in the UK in an emergency situation. Not cheap but could be cheaper than driving a second car if you only need it for a day or two.

 

[Pausim]

Ah, so the brakes would be applied when the cable was pulled tight due to the A-frame departing but as soon as it slackened, eg the car got closer to the A-frame when the towing vehicle slowed, the brakes would release.

The breakaway cable would not be strong enough to hold the car and would break. Without the A frame hand brake the brakes would release.

 

[Realist]

Unfortunately/fortunately depending on your point of view once you start a post you have no control over the subsequent content, the ONLY sure way is not to post it in the first place regardless of your reasons for doing so.

People must take responsibility to what they post and reply to its not a free for all and members here must also take responsibility towards the actual person concerned and how comments and finger pointing may effect them.

Thread is for information purposes only not for finger pointing.

 

[TonyEmm]

Ok I’ve mentioned many times here not to point fingers and start speculating on things people know nothing about, I started this thread for information reasons only.

If you can’t act like adults don’t post simple.

Just respect the above and wait until Monday, Tuesday for the effected car to pass comment and then we will all see what direction it will take.

Regards.

It does beg the question why you felt the need to jump the gun and copy my post from another private forum, without asking permission, you clearly know who I am on the other group too…. Believe me, I’d have posted it here without your assistance, when the time was right!

 

[Puddleduck]

I am grateful that the warning has been posted and that people will (hopefully) check the affected areas of their vehicles if they do have A frames.

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[Realist]

It does beg the question why you felt the need to jump the gun and copy my post from another private forum, without asking permission, you clearly know who I am on the other group too…. Believe me, I’d have posted it here without your assistance, when the time was right!

Nope didn’t know who you are or was does not effect anything your not special bud are you come on.

Now I know who you are your the single chap with a vengeance on A Frames with your sole intention of removing them from this earth, but up to this point only government authorities can do that and you can only pass on your personal comments like the rest of us.

Have asked Jim to close this thread in order to wait for more information pending.

Again, this thread is for information only that’s all.

 

[Jackd]

I am grateful that the warning has been posted and that people will (hopefully) check the affected areas of their vehicles if they do have A frames.

I agree. Post a message on here, telling us that someone has had an accident and to check your setup.

He didn’t. He cut and pasted someone else’s post from another forum and is now wondering why it has been dissected by all and sundry. Enough said.

 

[Realist]

Jim Please close thread the idea was to aid and pass on information, keep people updated but now I feel that’s not my place as a member here to do such a thing.

So please close or remove my thread.

 

[Stoosal]

Pandora’s box I’m afraid.......

Be careful what you open.

 

[minesapint]

I know plenty do it.. but I personally have never had the inclination or indeed the need to drag a car behind a moho and have always felt this is a very unsafe practise and should be illegal as it is in other countries.
Whats wrong with going all out and putting car on a trailer or even better become a tugger.

Try it you may like the freedom the toad gives you.

Our A frame was fitted by TowAFrame and has a service every year, the towing beam is massively reinforced and is a specifically made unit for my car, it is fitted with a break away cable which works the brakes on all four wheels, as does the braking system when under tow.

The A frame in question, did not look to have had and maintenance for a long while and if it was not fitted with a break away cable was an accident waiting to happen, and should not have been in use

Watching a couple try and get a car onto a two wheeled trailer, was frightening, and looking some of the trailers, I think my A frame is far safer.

It is only as unsafe as towing any non serviced trailer or caravan, maintenance is the key to all things mechanical.

And for the record I was a tugger, but prefer the convenience of a MoHo, with a toad to get around, instead of sitting on my plot moaning about the lack of busses.

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[Realist]

Pandora’s box I’m afraid.......

Be careful what you open.

Agreed.

 

[minesapint]

What’s transpired is they used the original subframe and just welded the fixing points to that hence why they pulled away, no extra strength features what so ever.

Not all A frame suppliers carry out such poor work and some actually change the whole front end that’s been strengthened and modified to stop such a disaster.

But what gets to me is selling a A Frame with no break away cable or means to stop it if it comes away from the Motorhome.

Poor design and yes a disaster waiting to happen.

Now we wait for the OP to let everyone know the supplier, I’m not I’m just passing on vital info.

Goods point, our front bean supplied and fitted by Tow A Frame, is a purpose made heavily reinforced item made specifically for my toad.

 

[Realist]

Goods point, our front bean supplied and fitted by Tow A Frame, is a purpose made heavily reinforced item made specifically for my toad.

Same as mine but not same company I might add.

 

[TonyEmm]

Jim Please close thread the idea was to aid and pass on information, keep people updated but now I feel that’s not my place as a member here to do such a thing.

So please close or remove my thread.

Nope didn’t know who you are or was does not effect anything your not special bud are you come on.

Now I know who you are your the single chap with a vengeance on A Frames with your sole intention of removing them from this earth, but up to this point only government authorities can do that and you can only pass on your personal comments like the rest of us.

Have asked Jim to close this thread in order to wait for more information pending.

Again, this thread is for information only that’s all.

We’ve had run-ins on here before. You are another naysayer! Anyone who doubts my reasons for campaigning about towing safety (not just a-frames) should search #TowSafe4Freddie.
explain to the 3 year old’s mother why it’s just a bit unfortunate that her son was killed by a runaway Trailer?

Only controls and legislation can help prevent such incidents but, it needs backing up with enforcement too and that, is sadly lacking.

BTW, at least we are singing from the same hymn sheet in one respect, I’ve already messaged Jim and asked him to close or remove the thread, until the time is right!

 

[Larrynwin]

The breakaway cable would not be strong enough to hold the car and would break. Without the A frame hand brake the brakes would release.

On an overrun system the breakaway cable is normally a multi strand wire Bowden cable and when separating will apply a ratchet system to ensure brake stays on.
With a non overrun system , eg the RVi brake unit as I use the breakaway cable pulls a removable peg from a switch mounted on the front of the car which immediately powers the brake unit to stop the car which stays on until manually switched off.

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[minesapint]

Reversing will not be easy with simple over-run brakes.

Ove-run brakes will allow you to reverse if you have a reverse lock lever on the A frame tow hitch, which many have not got. Ours is equipped with electronic braking which allows you to reverse.

 

[Conal]

Pausim As I stated my breakaway cable is more than strong enough to hold my car.

 

[TonyEmm]

Same as mine but not same company I might add.

Do NOT make any references to the company! The owners are trying their best to open lines of communication. If they refuse, legal action WILL follow…. This is serious,

 

[olley]

What year is this one please? It’s interesting as a comparison!

2014 Tony, last year they made them I believe.
I did have a look in my workshop to see if I had the old cross member, but I have chucked it.

 

[TDub49]

Freedom of choice?

No consolation if you are killed or injured by someone else's freedom of choice . . . .

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