A Frame Disaster

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Minxy Girl said:
OMG, omg :eek: .... it's a 'peanut' headlight one :p ... I absolutely LOVE those :love: ... "get thee away from me Satan!" ... :imoutahere:
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Just for Minxy and to show one that does remove the scaffolding when not towing
Note Manf Towing eye is not used for flat towing
 

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Geo said:
Just for Minxy and to show one that does remove the scaffolding when not towing
Note Manf Towing eye is not used for flat towing
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That's a very good attachment .
What make please?
 
Are these screwed into the recovery point?

I thought most vehicles only had one of those not two.

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Gus Lopez - you really have lived - spotting 2 speeding toads in all the years you have been on the road. Perhaps you should be more concerned if one of the many caravans on our roads - legal and with the correct C o C - speeding, involved in actual accidents, came anywhere near you.
There are so few of us with toads that any possibility of you becoming involved with us is totally infinitesimal.
Thank goodness we - in the UK - live in a country which doesn’t find it necessary to put into statute every minute aspect of life.
Certain EU countries cannot accept anything that is outside it’s understanding of the CoC so it makes it illegal - illogical, when towing a caravan has had many more dangerous incidents but is ok cos it has it’s very own CoC.
 
Realist said:
I like that as an extra security feature, don’t have one on mine so ordered one.
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That is a mistake! A secondary coupling will prevent a breakaway cable doing it’s job.

There is a lot of confusion here between breakaway cables, secondary couplings and Bowden cables.

Take the case of a trailer. (Which is what the regulations were written for). Standard procedure (above 750kgs but no more than 3500kgs) is to use an inertia coupling ‘overrun system’. Since Oct 1982, it has been a requirement that they are ‘auto-reverse’ systems. They have to be reversible without the driver intervening. (There is an exception for particulary heavy trailers to have a reversing catch in addition).
An inertia coupling has a linkage from the bottom of the brake pivot, to the trailer brakes. This takes the form of brake rod(s), adjuster, compensator and Bowden cable(s), one to each wheel.
(On an a-frame, the single Bowden cable goes from the front of the towed car to the brake pedal. It needs the linkage from the inertia coupling attaching to the cable, each time the system is set up. Adjustment is quite crucial!)

An emergency braking system is required and this takes the form of a relatively lightweight cable (of indeterminate length) that needs to be fixed to the bottom of the handbrake, it should be fed through a guide in front of the handbrake, and is then looped around a part of the towing vehicle’s towbar. (Though not recommended, it is not illegal to loop it over the towball). This cable is a breakaway cable. If separation occurs, the cable pulls on the handbrake of the inertia coupling (which includes an energy store to ensure it stays on), the trailer stops, the breakaway cable breaks and the towing vehicle drives away.

The regulations allow, as an alternative (but only up to 1500kg MGW), a secondary coupling.

A secondary coupling is designed to prevent the trailer leaving the towing vehicle in the event of separation. It has to be strong enough to contain the weight of the trailer and short enough to prevent the trailer coupling striking the ground, thereby retaining some residual steering.

They should not be used together, it’s one or the other!
 
TonyEmm said:
That is a mistake! A secondary coupling will prevent a breakaway cable doing it’s job.

There is a lot of confusion here between breakaway cables, secondary couplings and Bowden cables.

Take the case of a trailer. (Which is what the regulations were written for). Standard procedure (above 750kgs but no more than 3500kgs) is to use an inertia coupling ‘overrun system’. Since Oct 1982, it has been a requirement that they are ‘auto-reverse’ systems. They have to be reversible without the driver intervening. (There is an exception for particulary heavy trailers to have a reversing catch in addition).
An inertia coupling has a linkage from the bottom of the brake pivot, to the trailer brakes. This takes the form of brake rod(s), adjuster, compensator and Bowden cable(s), one to each wheel.
(On an a-frame, the single Bowden cable goes from the front of the towed car to the brake pedal. It needs the linkage from the inertia coupling attaching to the cable, each time the system is set up. Adjustment is quite crucial!)

An emergency braking system is required and this takes the form of a relatively lightweight cable (of indeterminate length) that needs to be fixed to the bottom of the handbrake, it should be fed through a guide in front of the handbrake, and is then looped around a part of the towing vehicle’s towbar. (Though not recommended, it is not illegal to loop it over the towball). This cable is a breakaway cable. If separation occurs, the cable pulls on the handbrake of the inertia coupling (which includes an energy store to ensure it stays on), the trailer stops, the breakaway cable breaks and the towing vehicle drives away.

The regulations allow, as an alternative (but only up to 1500kg MGW), a secondary coupling.

A secondary coupling is designed to prevent the trailer leaving the towing vehicle in the event of separation. It has to be strong enough to contain the weight of the trailer and short enough to prevent the trailer coupling striking the ground, thereby retaining some residual steering.

They should not be used together, it’s one or the other!
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Next!
 
“That is a mistake! A secondary coupling will prevent a breakaway cable doing it’s job”

Correct but…….. I would rather keep my A Frame attached to my tow ball via a secondary coupling preventing it breaking away and this could happen on a motorway.

At least with a secondary coupling I have a very good chance of bringing the whole unit Motorhome and car to a managed safe place like the hard shoulder under control or should you feel better by leaving it apply the brake and stop somewhere on a live motorway?

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poppycamper said:
Realist We all thought you wanted this thread to go away and yet here you are again with a one word reply to keep it on the front page .!
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Threads here for information purposes that’s the original reason for posting such valued info and the reason for the one word reply's is sometimes some people can be boring.

Next!
 
Realist said:
Next!
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You hadn’t had time to read what I’d written before you jumped in with your ‘NEXT’ response….
to me, that says a lot about you and your approach to safety. 🙄.
Head, Wall, Brick?

Maybe you should learn a thing or two about the safety critical equipment you are using?

I’m off out for the day so don’t expect a response!
 
Realist said:
Threads here for information purposes that’s the original reason for posting such valued info and the reason for the one word reply's is sometimes some people can be boring.

Next!
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Unfortunately, you’re not the guy to provide information, you have just demonstrated your lack of knowledge!

as Jim has chosen to ignore my request to lock the thread on the grounds of protecting the user’s and company’s confidentially, I shall fight my corner!
 
Realist said:
“That is a mistake! A secondary coupling will prevent a breakaway cable doing it’s job”

Correct but…….. I would rather keep my A Frame attached to my tow ball via a secondary coupling preventing it breaking away and this could happen on a motorway.

At least with a secondary coupling I have a very good chance of bringing the whole unit Motorhome and car to a managed safe place like the hard shoulder under control or should you feel better by leaving it apply the brake and stop somewhere on a live motorway?
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Useless if the a-frame falls off the towed car…. ! Again, you haven’t thought it through.
 
Tony look I’m not against valued information not at all what I hate is having trailer info rammed down my throat every time A frames are mentioned.

I’m aware that you hate them like others.
I’m aware others have the same dislike of them.

But so far up until government in the U.K. say other wise people like myself a far better option instead of a trailer where I don’t have space to store one.

I value your input and yes I do read it all but please be respectful to those that wish to use A frames.
 
After reading all of this I would not wish to be an A frame installer.

If you reinforce the vehicle structure you could be (theoretically) held liable for any damages by altering the collision characteristics.

If you don't strengthen the mounting point for the A frame.....

In this case the A frame has pulled through whatever it was attached to - which is severely corroded.

I can understand the original installer's anger at someone trying to blame him for something installed 10 years before!

The installation could not have been checked at any time in over 10 years.

Always someone looks for someone to blame - 10 years on!

PLEASE!

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I am totally confused with this thread :doh:.
When it started I thought the op was suggesting that a frames were dangerous. And put a large screen shot of a disaster with one, and seemed to be agreeing with it but now he is all for them and arguing with the original poster of the screen shot :unsure:
How you are going to bring this outfit to a stop on a mway with the car waving about at the end of a rope escapes me.
 
Like many, I have been following this thread, and there have been many views from many people, but why as no one mentioned what was quoted on page one of this thread, it was said the installer had till Monday to respond before the name of the installer could be revealed, it is now Wednesday and still no mention of it
 
Minxy Girl said:
Jim can you PLEASE sort out the bickering parties on here, it's ruining what could be an 'informative' thread.
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I agree many have given their views but "informative" would surely mean finding out who was responsible for fitting the Aframe mounting and was it their fault this as happened
 
charliesgrandad said:
Like many, I have been following this thread, and there have been many views from many people, but why as no one mentioned what was quoted on page one of this thread, it was said the installer had till Monday to respond before the name of the installer could be revealed, it is now Wednesday and still no mention of it
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Correct, it’s not mentioned on the original Facebook post as Tony closed it.

Jim knows who they are as I do but not posting the company as I like for both parties to respond or at least see if the A Frame suppler has responded.

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Minxy Girl said:
Jim can you PLEASE sort out the bickering parties on here, it's ruining what could be an 'informative' thread.
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I am finding there are points of interest on both sides of the argument. Shame about the bickering.
TonyEmm said:
Useless if the a-frame falls off the towed car…. ! Again, you haven’t thought it through.
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Surely that applies to both the inertia breakaway and secondary coupling systems. One is attached to the A frame and the other relies on the A frame handbrake. They are both designed to help if the coupling breaks free but are ineffective if the A frame breaks away from the car.
 
Realist said:
Tony look I’m not against valued information not at all what I hate is having trailer info rammed down my throat every time A frames are mentioned.

I’m aware that you hate them like others.
I’m aware others have the same dislike of them.

But so far up until government in the U.K. say other wise people like myself a far better option instead of a trailer where I don’t have space to store one.

I value your input and yes I do read it all but please be respectful to those that wish to use A frames.
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There isn’t an alternative to ramming trailer info down your throat. It’s the regs that the DfT say a-frames MUST conform to.

They also declare on their info page that an a-framed towed car is a trailer. Trying to pretend it’s anything else is pointless, until such time as the DfT take the sensible approach and class an a-frame towed car (toad) as a different vehicle category. I’ve suggested that many times to them But they do not see the logic. There’s none so blind………. 🙄
 
charliesgrandad said:
Like many, I have been following this thread, and there have been many views from many people, but why as no one mentioned what was quoted on page one of this thread, it was said the installer had till Monday to respond before the name of the installer could be revealed, it is now Wednesday and still no mention of it
Click to expand...

It might be that the complainant has now received better advice and wishes to avoid possible legal action against them.
 
Pausim said:
I am finding there are points of interest on both sides of the argument. Shame about the bickering.

Surely that applies to both the inertia breakaway and secondary coupling systems. One is attached to the A frame and the other relies on the A frame handbrake. They are both designed to help if the coupling breaks free but are ineffective if the A frame breaks away from the car.
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The rules written with trailers in mind. The most common failing there is the coupling separating from the towball. Either a breakaway cable or a secondary coupling would achieve the objective there.

Only once in 30 years have I known a drawbar fall off a trailer. But that is the most likely failing where an a-frame is concerned. In that scenario, both breakaway cable cable and secondary are ineffective, they are still correctly attached between ball and coupling!
This is precisely why Trailer braking regulations are not fit for A-frames.
 
TonyEmm said:
There isn’t an alternative to ramming trailer info down your throat. It’s the regs that the DfT say a-frames MUST conform to.

They also declare on their info page that an a-framed towed car is a trailer. Trying to pretend it’s anything else is pointless, until such time as the DfT take the sensible approach and class an a-frame towed car (toad) as a different vehicle category. I’ve suggested that many times to them But they do not see the logic. There’s none so blind………. 🙄
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As said Monday has now been and gone and the company
NAME IS ????????? 🤣🤣

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