A Frame Disaster

[Barclaybasher]

The vehicle was fitted with the A frame over 10 years ago - it has been used since then. What's changed?

The corrosion on the metal gives a clue. It may or may not have been fitted to a proper standard but it is the metal on the vehicle that has failed.

Should that have been spotted at service or MOT?

Unfortunate for the owner but 10+ years?

 

[tonyidle]

really? I really doubt that unless it was an incredibly tight corner which is unlikely to happen on a big motorhome.

Do I know? no. Will I ever find out? no. Do you actually know? I am guessing not.

The corner doesn't have to be very tight for the car to require more than half a turn of its steering wheel. Once the bungee wraps around the wheel / column it wouldn't be wise to assume it will return. The car will turn much more than the motorhome especially if it's on the end of a long overhang.

 

[Barclaybasher]

When you insure a toad do you have to inform your insurance provider that the toad has been modified or the intended use of the vehicle?

Never seen the question of use on a proposal form

 

[Pausim]

Larrynwin That cable is the same as mine but mine is much longer (not boasting or anything…)

The law requires.
“Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering”(DfT advice on A frames).
Which means the cable needs to be short, a long one might risk the frame dropping too far and not providing residual steering. Also the stresses on the cable are likely to be much greater the longer it gets because it gives the toad more scope for slapping around wildly behind the towing vehicle.

It may or may not have been fitted to a proper standard but it is the metal on the vehicle that has failed.

The frame should not be fitted to the original metal of the vehicle, it is not designed for this. An additional cross member is needed.

 

[Pausim]

When you insure a toad do you have to inform your insurance provider that the toad has been modified or the intended use of the vehicle?

Never seen the question of use on a proposal form

I have always informed the insurance broker. Some of them even understood what I was talking about.

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[chaser]

I have always informed the insurance broker. Some of them even understood what I was talking about.

Now that's an interesting point, in the case of the op, which insurance is going to cover this, the motorhome or the car being towed?

 

[Realist]

Now that's an interesting point, in the case of the op, which insurance is going to cover this, the motorhome or the car being towed?

It will come off the motorhomes insurance, because while towing the car is only insured under 3rd party and classed as a trailer.

 

[Realist]

Also…….. morning.

 

[peterc10]

So why are they illegal in most of europe????

AFAIK it is nothing to do with safety, but I could be wrong.

In most other European countries trailers have an identity of their own and are treated as a separate vehicle with their own promulgation and registration documents, number plates and insurance policies. The law in at least some of those countries means that a vehicle can only be used for what it is promulgated for. So a car cannot be used as a trailer, which it is what it is when it is on an A frame. My guess that is because of the way that a trailer is defined in their laws

PS Don't blame me for this. I do not have an A frame and don't want one because I think my motorhome is big enough as it is. I am neither a hater nor a lover. Just an innocent bystander wondering why this thread has got so nasty

 

[Pausim]

Now that's an interesting point, in the case of the op, which insurance is going to cover this, the motorhome or the car being towed?

I agree with

It will come off the motorhomes insurance, because while towing the car is only insured under 3rd party and classed as a trailer.

I have both vehicles on the same policy with NFU but accept that there is probably only third party cover for the car whilst being towed. I might be able to take out separate trailer insurance but I accept that the car is probably at my risk, the important thing is the third part cover.

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[Realist]

I agree with

I have both vehicles on the same policy with NFU but accept that there is probably only third party cover for the car whilst being towed. I might be able to take out separate trailer insurance but I accept that the car is probably at my risk, the important thing is the third part cover.

Yep. Always cover ones assets.

 

[Larrynwin]

Its hard to tell from that angle but is that an un-braked pressed steel hitch

Yes if you read my posts above I have an in car powered auxiliary braking system so do not require a braked hitch which is also the case with other similar systems.

 

[Larrynwin]

Minxy Girl your a star.
The only one whos come close to working out the emegency braking in an electricly braked A frame.
And if fitted to the car in question would have applied the brake
Lenny secondary cable is ideal as described and fitted BUT that is most definitely NOT the place to use as a main breakaway point
All the extra cables and chains suggested here would not have helped if the frame detachment happens at the car end.

With the RVi brake unit similar to Brake Buddy if the a frame detached from the car the breakaway cable would pull the car mounted switch and power up the brake unit.

 

[Platelet]

Yes if you read my posts above I have an in car powered auxiliary braking system so do not require a braked hitch which is also the case with other similar systems.

I accept your explanation of the system, what I’m getting at is your hitch *looks* like an unbraked pressed steel hitch, which only has a 750kgs limit

 

[Larrynwin]

I accept your explanation of the system, what I’m getting at is your hitch *looks* like an unbraked pressed steel hitch, which only has a 750kgs limit

It is pressed steel unbraked and 1400 kg.

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[bigtwin]

When you insure a toad do you have to inform your insurance provider that the toad has been modified or the intended use of the vehicle?

Never seen the question of use on a proposal form

Every form that I’ve ever seen asks the question ‘has the vehicle been modified?’.

Always declared on my renewal.

As alluded to by others, the toad is covered by your MH insurance, for third party risks only, while being towed. Furthermore, it won’t retain its own comprehensive cover while being towed (if anyone has found an insurer that covers this aspect I’m sure many would like to hear about them).

Ian

 

[Geo]

With the RVi brake unit similar to Brake Buddy if the a frame detached from the car the breakaway cable would pull the car mounted switch and power up the brake unit.

I know Larry, like you ive had Rvi2, Brake Buddy 2 variants, Manual Override, and currently TBtTC electric.
All perfectly good systems when installed and used properly
l was surprised that Minxy had worked out what would happen seeing as she doesn't tow compared to the many that do but hadn't picked up on it
Therefore it would suggest one wasn't fitted or not used or set up properly

 

[Platelet]

It is pressed steel unbraked and 1400 kg.

Please accept my apologies then

 

[EzeeRider]

I don't think I missed it but it isn't clear when the frame was fitted to this 10 year old vehicle because it looks like rust was the cause of the detachment rather than the supplier unless of course it was fitted recently in which case the supplier did not do a thorough job. I have had problems with corrosion of the frame attachments on my 5 year old installation but fortunately this was caught in time and rectified. I was lucky. I suggest owners need to initiate regular checks of the attachment points, perhaps at every MOT date or thereabouts.
ezee

 

[Pausim]

I don't think I missed it but it isn't clear when the frame was fitted to this 10 year old vehicle because it looks like rust was the cause of the detachment rather than the supplier unless of course it was fitted recently in which case the supplier did not do a thorough job. I have had problems with corrosion of the frame attachments on my 5 year old installation but fortunately this was caught in time and rectified. I was lucky. I suggest owners need to initiate regular checks of the attachment points, perhaps at every MOT date or thereabouts.
ezee

Is rust the issue? It looks like an original part of the car’s frame and I thought the mountings needed to be on an additional beam with the strength to take the forces.

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[Freo]

Every form that I’ve ever seen asks the question ‘has the vehicle been modified?’.

Always declared on my renewal.

As alluded to by others, the toad is covered by your MH insurance, for third party risks only, while being towed. Furthermore, it won’t retain its own comprehensive cover while being towed (if anyone has found an insurer that covers this aspect I’m sure many would like to hear about them).

Ian

I use a trailer to tow, but bear with me.

I asked the question of my Motorhome insurer - Comfort, in my case - whether my car, which is also insured Fully Comp with Comfort, would remain Fully Comp covered whilst being towed on the trailer. Their reply was that my car would be covered Fully Comp at all times whilst being towed on a trailer, or by A-Frame.
While shopping around for Insurance some years ago, Comfort were the only insurer who offered this.
Strange, because Aviva car policies do not provide for this, and yet Aviva underwrite Comfort policies. Go figure.

I make a point of confirming this every year at renewal time.

Forgot to mention, obviously I have no vehicle mods to declare on my car.

 

[Spawn_e_git]

As alluded to by others, the toad is covered by your MH insurance, for third party risks only, while being towed. Furthermore, it won’t retain its own comprehensive cover while being towed (if anyone has found an insurer that covers this aspect I’m sure many would like to hear about them).

Ian

When I looked into this Churchill and Hastings Direct Confirmed it would be covered. (Via Chat). I suppose that this could be contested but the chat transcripts would be used if they tried to back out of it.

 

[Minxy]

Minxy Girl your a star.
The only one whos come close to working out the emegency braking in an electricly braked A frame.
And if fitted to the car in question would have applied the brake

Awe shucks ... I'm blushing now ...

l was surprised that Minxy had worked out what would happen seeing as she doesn't tow compared to the many that do but hadn't picked up on it
Therefore it would suggest one wasn't fitted or not used or set up properly

Oh well, that didn't last long!











Only kidding ... I do like to understand things even if I don't use/have them ... hence my liking for puzzles etc.

 

[denisejoe]

It's not hard though is it, four year old kids can do it here with garden tractors after a couple of days.
The biggest thing an old driver told me and I tell all the kids here, is follow your trailer, don't get to far out of line.
But one thing with tractors , it's bloody hard to reverse a four wheel trailer as all your normal reversing training goes out the window so is trying to back a four wheel car the same.

That’s fine I had a class 1 license and reversed 100 ft trailers on the Thames barrier but I could see the trailer in both mirrors wouldn’t tow behind the Motorhome as I couldn’t see a car so wouldn't know where it is until it has started to go off line

 

[Minxy]

I don't think I missed it but it isn't clear when the frame was fitted to this 10 year old vehicle because it looks like rust was the cause of the detachment rather than the supplier unless of course it was fitted recently in which case the supplier did not do a thorough job. I have had problems with corrosion of the frame attachments on my 5 year old installation but fortunately this was caught in time and rectified. I was lucky. I suggest owners need to initiate regular checks of the attachment points, perhaps at every MOT date or thereabouts.
ezee

You're correct, it was attached to a '10' plate but when the frame was put on hasn't been mentioned. The amount of rust would suggest it has been on for a fair while though but maybe not as many years as the car, difficult to say really.

Something as important as the attachment points should be required at MOT for 'modified' vehicles, at the very least the owner should ensure that they are checked at each service. As the car hasn't done many miles I wonder if it has had the minimum amount of servicing done just to keep it 'happy', not that this in any way negates the woefully IMV inadequate installation by the A-frame supplier.

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[Hoovie]

The copy of the post from Facebook says:

I read that to mean the car was bought brand-new (though might have been a pre-reg?) specifically to use as a TOED, so has been in place 11 years (as car is a 2010 '10 plate)

That may be incorrect, but the way it is worded sure implies it to me.

And I would also say that after 10 years, a japanese car can show significant corrosion at the best of times, but that is just a general observation of having a 10 year old japanese car that left a ring of rust around it each time the door was slammed shut even though the paintwork and general appearance was stunning externally.
(I sold it on 6 months later after lots of corrosion-related repairs, having had enough when the exhaust hanger fell off the first time I drove it after spending many many hundreds on air-con repairs after the magnetic clutch failed after rusting up).

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

Not directly a comment about A frames, more of a general comment regarding this particular installation. From the photos it could have been fitted fairly recently with the corrosion having been taking place over many years prior. The box sections on vehicles were very rarely treated internally, nor were they particularly well sealed. I remember that BMW had a problem with centre stands on one of their motorbikes whereby the tubular legs would corrode from the inside and collapse. The owners knew nothing about it until one day they would come back to their bikes and found them laying on their sides with fairly extensive damage. Naturally BMW denied all liability for this despite it being a fairly common occurrence.

 

[Pausim]

not that this in any way negates the woefully IMV inadequate installation by the A-frame supplier.

My suspicion is that they just used the original towing eye fixings, which might be designed to take an occasional direct pull but not the greater leverage exerted by an A frame. From my dim and distant studies of Applied Maths I would imagine that every turn would exert a pulling force on one mounting and a pushing force on the other, which would reverse for a turn in the other direction. Over time I can see the possibility of metal fatigue occurring in such a flimsy looking cross member, with or without rust.

 

[gus-lopez]

bearing in mind there is a secondary Bowden cable link over the tow hitch which also prevents separation , t

Which in itself is illegal. Up to 750kgs unbraked you have a cable attaching the trailer to the vehicle to prevent separation. Up to 750kgs braked & over 750 kgs require the breakaway cable to activate the trailers brakes by various means. usually just pulling on the spring loaded handbrake then the cable 'snaps' allowing the trailer to slow on its own. You mst not have a secondary cable to prevent separation as it stops the breakaway cable from working.

And compared to caravan towing accidents ?

Ther is no different an 'A' framed car is a caravan or trailer.You cannot have it both ways?

So why are they illegal in most of europe????

Because the law states that most vehicles have to have there own registration, certaily here in the case of trailers over 750kgs + separate insurance & tax. under only require a ficha tecnica detailed mechanical logbook ,unless used for trade then they have to be registered .That's why you can't tow a car.


A trailer has one of these.

only difference if it is registered is that it has a regsitration number.

live in the U.K. where in law currently they are legal.

No the law doesn't state anyting.Because it hasn't been tested they are deemed 'acceptable'. They are neither legal nor illegal yet.

They are not illegal here.

As above they are not legal either,just accepted.

that they should be banned, they are as everything, as safe as the person using and maintaining it.

That shold mean they are banned then the same as caravans & trailers as yo only have to look at the rubbish & condition that the vast maority are dragging around.

I do agree that if an A frame system is on a car it should be part of the MOT test for that vehicle.

Which would render it illegal due to modifications to the chassis meaning the CoC has been breached & the vehicle should not be allowed on the road without a sva .

So what does this secondary cable do .
What is it's diameter

As above makes the veicle dangerous.

Because of a Spanish law designed to stop one car towing another with a piece of rope. The UK isn’t alone in having poorly worded legislation

As previous it has nothing to do with "towing with anything" nothing is allowed it is due to as posted above. It is a separate vehicle.

Been into the garage , photos as promised, the cable was fitted as standard by Towtal.

View attachment 553070View attachment 553071

& as I stated above the shortness of that will doubtflly allow operation of the breakaway fnction to operate the brakes.

Larrynwin That cable is the same as mine but mine is much longer (not boasting or anything…)

Which would be better but surely drags on the ground?

It is pressed steel unbraked and 1400 kg.

but only meant to be used on unbraked trailers up to 750kgs.

 

[Brains]

No. They are not illegal here. 99% of don‘t care about what Europe does

It was only ever 51%
Now it's somewhat less.

What is odd that A Frames were not made illegal many years ago in the UK,
As people have pointed out, they exist in a legal gray area.
A Frames have never been legalised, but under English law, not being legalised does not make it illegal (unlike laws in France and Spain)

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