2021 Adria Matrix Adblue Nightmare and Other Problems Part Two.

[oldiesontour]

But why delete particularly on late Euro 6.2 psa's it's more expensive to delete and to replace and MAY cause unwanted side effects..that's why I would go with a vehicle/ECU specific emulator...and you can put it on the next vehicle or sell it on if you want

 

[Sandancers]

As an aside I saw that JLM, who produce chemicals for the cleaning of DPFs etc, have produced a chemical to add to ad-blue to prevent it clogging. However they recommend mixing their chemical to the ad-blue in a separate container before pouring it into the vehicle. This they say is to get the exact mixture correct. More info on their website.

 

[oldiesontour]

Quite a few adblue additives available .But do they do all that's needed reduce or prevent any formation etc
I used it but still sceptical

 

[oldiesontour]

With regard to NOX testing if it's so difficult does an exhaust nox sensor not sample box levels...according to a Google search it does and uses a 3 cell system to do so

 

[dunnah01]

Yes but that is visual. If you do the same as a catalyst ,remove from vehicle, cut around weld, dig out & empty tat inside ,reassemble weld up & replace, no one is any the wiser.

Or just remove the dpf and use a really long drill bit to to turn the gubbins inside to dust (worked for me a friend on an Alfa years ago)

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[Tio64]

But why delete particularly on late Euro 6.2 psa's it's more expensive to delete and to replace and MAY cause unwanted side effects..that's why I would go with a vehicle/ECU specific emulator...and you can put it on the next vehicle or sell it on if you want

I don't know about them, I'll have to look into those.

 

[vanfan]

Thanks for taking the time to write this and I am very sorry to hear your story. This does, however fill me with concern. We are due to pick up a new Rapido motorhome in July which does use ad blue. Our 8 year old Rapido motorhome didn’t use ad blue but we have a Mercedes that does use it although we have had no problems with it so far. I have read similar threads on this forum to yours and I’m wondering whether we should cancel the order!

We have only been members of this group for a couple of weeks and have found it mostly helpful and informative.
As we also have a new van expected for delivery in June with Fiat Ducato engine that uses ad blue we are extremely concerned and wondering whether to cancel before the next payment is due.
This has ruined our excitement about buying our first new van and filled us with doubts.
Is there anyone out there with a positive experience?

 

[ceejayt]

Never had any problem with adblue in my engine. Just keep it topped up.
I think perhaps problems occur because if the low mileage of the vehicle so it just sits too long.
I do about 8000 miles per annum in my motorhome

 

[oldiesontour]

Just remember the hundreds of thousands of vehicles out there that do millions of miles a year,people usually post when they have a problem not when everything is normal.

 

[vanfan]

Thank you
Calmed down a bit now!
As you say thousands of vehicles on the road with hopefully no issues.
Will continue to look forward to our new delivery

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[Btg]

Just remember don’t let the engine idle for to long and make sure you give it a good run a good blast now n then

 

[royandsharont]

We have only been members of this group for a couple of weeks and have found it mostly helpful and informative.
As we also have a new van expected for delivery in June with Fiat Ducato engine that uses ad blue we are extremely concerned and wondering whether to cancel before the next payment is due.
This has ruined our excitement about buying our first new van and filled us with doubts.
Is there anyone out there with a positive experience?

I’ve not had any problems with mine or the early warning signs coming on. I’ve just filled up then at a pump.

 

[Googlebot]

I have been driving adblue cars for years and all our Ambulances are also adblue now.

Car wise, I can’t think of any of them that have had an issue with the adblue system, we must run about 50 of them as well.

Ambulances, we run a fleet of 450 Fiats. The latest generation have had issues with sensors, but I am fairly sure they aren’t adblue related.

One of the biggest killers has been excessive idling. The cooling system doesn’t keep up all that well when they sit idling and also blocks everything up so the mechanics tell me.

In short, I wouldn’t worry about buying a new van with adblue. Just make sure it’s topped up regularly and used regularly without sitting idling.

 

[sciac2001]

I’ve just been advised by a couple of Spanish motorhomers that it is crucial to add anti-crystallization liquid to the adblue.
I didn’t have a clue so will hunt for some immediately.

Any pointers as to the ratio to add would be appreciated. (My adblue tank is currently half full.)

 

[Birty]

£1800 lighter because of faulty/blocked/ defective ad blue cap that fiat should have recalled!! New tank n pipe work was required on a 21 plate just out of warranty!

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[oldiesontour]

I’ve just been advised by a couple of Spanish motorhomers that it is crucial to add anti-crystallization liquid to the adblue.
I didn’t have a clue so will hunt for some immediately.

Any pointers as to the ratio to add would be appreciated. (My adblue tank is currently half full.)

Varies make to make,full bottle per tank to 10ml per L .In my opinion not that critical if you're using the van.Somewhere on MF I posted a photo of adblue with additive left in an open cup it formed long strand like crystals , I used it anyway, can't do any harm .
Fresh adblue does not form crystals in a dark environment quickly in my experience

 

[Steve I]

Our Iveco base motorhome has adblue system. We have done 30000 miles and no problems ~ 20 litre tank and uses most of that in 1500 mikes
I have noticed a recent change though. Our dash has a continuous display of adblue percentage full and a flashing warning light when it gets down to 20%.
I always fill by pump (much easier). Previously after filling it would immediately show 100% on the dash. Recently after filling the percentage rises slowly over perhaps 15 to 20 minutes of driving eventually getting back to 100%.
Hopefully not a precursor to a problem

I hope not too for you, however I was quite shaken by 20litres per 1500 miles! I thought my Transit 170 auto was a bit thirsty and realise yours is probably heavier than my 3T kerb weight but that does sound scary (and expensive!). Hope you get no issues

 

[Pausim]

We have only been members of this group for a couple of weeks and have found it mostly helpful and informative.
As we also have a new van expected for delivery in June with Fiat Ducato engine that uses ad blue we are extremely concerned and wondering whether to cancel before the next payment is due.
This has ruined our excitement about buying our first new van and filled us with doubts.
Is there anyone out there with a positive experience?

I had a motorhome with AdBlue for 4 years from 2015 and had no problems. At the time I was very relieved not to have a Fiat with their complicated alternative EGR system, which seemed to be causing lots of problems at the time. Neither did I use any AdBlue additives, I don’t think anyone had devised this way of relieving motorists of even more cash at the time.

If you are worried, buy the extended 5 year Fiat warranty. It has to be bought from a Fiat Professional within days (14?) of first registration. I have just bought mine from Adams Morey Portsmouth and the vehicle is not yet registered but it can be set up as soon as the VIN number is known and the dealer has submitted the registration application. All I have to do now is send A M a copy of the V5 when I receive it, so that they can set the start date.

 

[Mike Rivers]

We collected our new Bailey Jun 2017. Engine is Euro 6. Warning light came on going down M4. Bought a can to ‘top-up’. Flimsy plastic filler hose and spilt some AdBlue, awful stuff to get on your clothes. Never again I said and since then have made a point of only refilling at forecourt pumps since you can fill to the brim (100%) and you’re not left with a container partially full of AdBlue. Additionally you will have only paid for the top-up. Thing to remember is that the AdBlue dispensers are usually in the HGV section of services so you’ll need to select one, park up and give your payment card to cashier before filling up. I’m talking here about some motorway services not all.
The problem many people encounter is thinking the warning will disappear after adding a bit of AdBlue eg 5litres from plastic container. My experience with other vehicles is that the tank should be filled to the brim and only then will the warning message disappear hence the reason I only fill up at services to ensure I can meter the exact amount of AdBlue to fill tank.

I tend to think that fiddling with the EMS or carrying out an AdBlue delete is not the answer since if it were then all drivers of Euro 6 vehicles (generally every vehicle manufactured from 2017) - thousands - would be up in arms, yet the only people I hear of who can’t seem to get on with AdBlue seem to be a minority on this forum!

 

[sciac2001]

We collected our new Bailey Jun 2017. Engine is Euro 6. Warning light came on going down M4. Bought a can to ‘top-up’. Flimsy plastic filler hose and spilt some AdBlue, awful stuff to get on your clothes. Never again I said and since then have made a point of only refilling at forecourt pumps since you can fill to the brim (100%) and you’re not left with a container partially full of AdBlue. Additionally you will have only paid for the top-up. Thing to remember is that the AdBlue dispensers are usually in the HGV section of services so you’ll need to select one, park up and give your payment card to cashier before filling up. I’m talking here about some motorway services not all.
The problem many people encounter is thinking the warning will disappear after adding a bit of AdBlue eg 5litres from plastic container. My experience with other vehicles is that the tank should be filled to the brim and only then will the warning message disappear hence the reason I only fill up at services to ensure I can meter the exact amount of AdBlue to fill tank.

I tend to think that fiddling with the EMS or carrying out an AdBlue delete is not the answer since if it were then all drivers of Euro 6 vehicles (generally every vehicle manufactured from 2017) - thousands - would be up in arms, yet the only people I hear of who can’t seem to get on with AdBlue seem to be a minority on this forum!

We’ve had no issues on our Sprinter based pvc thus far… touch wood.
Do you add the preventative crystallisation liquid?

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[oldiesontour]

Spoke to a garage/MOT station owner recently,he said ministry man informed him they are bringing in particulate testing (soot)
within next 2 years.He says this will pick up dpf and adblue deleted vehicles .His opinion is the slowly but ever increasing emmisions rule,simply put means"they just don't like diesels"

 

[bigtree]

With my new to me van I was getting about 100 miles to a litre, I topped up at a pump yesterday just before entering Portugal. By my calculations I’m now getting around 215 miles to a litre. 72 plate Fiat with just over 6000 miles on the clock.

 

[Pausim]

I hope not too for you, however I was quite shaken by 20litres per 1500 miles! I thought my Transit 170 auto was a bit thirsty and realise yours is probably heavier than my 3T kerb weight but that does sound scary (and expensive!). Hope you get no issues

I think AdBlue use varies with fuel used. When I was towing MPG went down and AdBlue consumption seemed to go up.

 

[Barti Ddu]

2021 Fiat Ducato based motorhome. 24k miles. Fill adblu every 3 or 4 thousand miles at a forecourt pump. No waste, no hassle, no spillage. Pump auto cuts off. Never even considered an additive. Seems like snake oil to me. No issues at all (yet)!

I suspect that motorhomes that don't do many miles may be an issue in terms of adblu crystallising or going stale.

 

[Hymer Tony B]

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

Just before i retired from hgv driving the fleet of lorries were euro 6 daf. After 2 years from new the problems started with pdf filters and adblue dosing systems. Had to be recovered twice with engine refusing to start, once with pdf and second with adblue dosing system. Stopped buying diesel cars myself and only buy petrol now. No good for us MH users so got old MH no dpf, no adblue. Runs fines, pulls well.

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[oldiesontour]

Having seen some of the ludicrous prices people are being charged for supply and fitting new adblue tanks ,I looked into cost a new complete tank for 2020 on (fiat/pgot)
Genuine £750inc delivery.Itook mine out repaired and refitted it on my back circa 90 mins,how on earth do they come up with
£12 to £1800 ?

 

[poisondwarf]

Having seen some of the ludicrous prices people are being charged for supply and fitting new adblue tanks ,I looked into cost a new complete tank for 2020 on (fiat/pgot)
Genuine £750inc delivery.Itook mine out repaired and refitted it on my back circa 90 mins,how on earth do they come up with
£12 to £1800 ?

How did you repair it?

 

[oldiesontour]

How did you repair it?

On 2020 on the pump and control pack are on the bottom of the tank hidden under a plastic cover so if they leak the wiring and electronics are bathed in adblue,mine was leaking between the pump housing and tank resealed it all ok now.But bought a 1yr old tank for £100 as a spare hope I never need it !

 

[Tony50]

I think AdBlue use varies with fuel used. When I was towing MPG went down and AdBlue consumption seemed to go up.

I agree I was fully padded travelling about 70 mph down French Toll roads and it seemed to use a heck of a lot adblu, cut down speed to about 60 mph seems lighter use according to gauge , filling up at pump 6 times cheaper than a 5 litre can from memory

 

[Peavy]

I’ve just been advised by a couple of Spanish motorhomers that it is crucial to add anti-crystallization liquid to the adblue.
I didn’t have a clue so will hunt for some immediately.

Any pointers as to the ratio to add would be appreciated. (My adblue tank is currently half full.)

From another Spanish motorhomer:
I wouldn't bother with that (my opinion).
Because the Ducato manual states that:

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