2021 Adria Matrix Adblue Nightmare and Other Problems Part Two.

[oldiesontour]

Does that have the dreaded twin egr's ?

 

[Pausim]

I am looking at second hand motorhomes at the moment, what year did they start using ad blue to the engines...

Depends on the make of the base vehicle. Mercedes introduced Adblue in 2015 (I had one no problems). Fiat continued without Adblue until September 2019 when the new testing regime forced them to give real emissions figures, rather than theoretical ones. After September 2019 there were still a number non Adblue Fiat motorhomes in the pipeline that may have been registered in 2020 and 2021.

You will need ask to be sure about Adblue but as mentioned above the Fiat alternative of twin EGR wasn’t without problems. I would be inclined to find the motorhome that suits you best and live with the mechanical issues that come with it. There are so many potential pitfalls ranging from Comfortmatic, Adblue, twin EGR, access to low emissions zones…………. By the time you have ruled out all potential issues you will end up with a Romany caravan and a horse.

 

[joner8888]

As a old school motor trade worker , bring back the days of no sensors ,anywhere on a vehicle.
Then life will be as it was ..
Ok , less power , less eco , less MPG but at least there was no worry on long distance driving.
And, with modern diesel engines , they are so tuned by electronics , the engine ports are rarely open at full capacity so they end up blocked.
See pictures of broken modern engines , cylinder heads completely blocked.
Take me back to a MAN or AEG or Cummings diesel and drive for 100000 miles

 

[oldiesontour]

Mind what you feed the horse or may be in breech of emmisions law !

 

[Pausim]

They say you should wee on your compost heap to speed up the composting process. Is this how we should dispose of out of date Adblue?

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[oldiesontour]

I ended up with what was a full tank before Xmas being disposed of by a leaking tank on the drive fortunately gravel. 19 LTRs... from what some have said could have done 100 miles on that !
Repaired tank all good now.But just bought a used tank to keep as a spare..hope I never need it,but as the van has done 24000 probably be needing it very soon !

 

[dunnah01]

As a old school motor trade worker , bring back the days of no sensors ,anywhere on a vehicle.
Then life will be as it was ..
Ok , less power , less eco , less MPG but at least there was no worry on long distance driving.
And, with modern diesel engines , they are so tuned by electronics , the engine ports are rarely open at full capacity so they end up blocked.
See pictures of broken modern engines , cylinder heads completely blocked.
Take me back to a MAN or AEG or Cummings diesel and drive for 100000 miles

A bit rose tinted - old cars were pretty cr@p in reality. The best period was about 1990 -2007 when electronics were simple and dpfs, egrs, cats, Adblue etc either weren't fitted or could easily be deleted or bypassed

 

[martin2603]

As a old school motor trade worker , bring back the days of no sensors ,anywhere on a vehicle.
Then life will be as it was ..
Ok , less power , less eco , less MPG but at least there was no worry on long distance driving.
And, with modern diesel engines , they are so tuned by electronics , the engine ports are rarely open at full capacity so they end up blocked.
See pictures of broken modern engines , cylinder heads completely blocked.
Take me back to a MAN or AEG or Cummings diesel and drive for 100000 miles

I was weaned on D series and TK s followed by Mercs 814 to V8 430s , VOLVO FL TO FM ,Daf 380 /430 Scanias 360 ,Renault 450, etc. For me the DAF s were most reliable and cheapest t run all did over 1mil . The current FM has more pulling power but has of course had Ad Blue issues with sensors and blocked DPF s , as well as gearbox loom issues. The more tech in the truck the bigger the pain! Had no issues with my non adblue euro6 Ducato apart from a faulty oil sensor . I assume in your post you ment AEC , not AEG, not forgetting Atkinson and GUY . Gardiner LX Also comes to mind . Roast in summer and sleep across the engine in winter to keep warm !

 

[oldiesontour]

Collected a used Adblue tank today,£100 !! Result !.it had found it's way into the hands of a former employee of a major courier company,they had so much trouble they had all 50 + vans deleted unit the late 2019 ones could no longer be done due to software changes (they can be done now but expensive I was quoted £450).He said only van he'd buy pre 2018 Merc sprinter but after that terrible.
Said 3 out of 6 new boxers had new engines under warranty ,a2018 sat in yard over a year low miles still waiting for cylinder head.
Personally feel happier now Got a perfect working Adblue system and a spare for inevitably when I need it .

 

[Drexl]

I have 2020 Boxer same as you. Haven't had any problems with the adblue system (yet) and am taking an interest in others experiences and possible fixes. Got a few questions if you could help out.
Could you share the part number of the replacement tank? Is this the one manufactured in CZ rather than the older ones which were manufactured in Belgium?
Did you find a suitable diagnostic tool for resetting the adblue system when fitting a replacement tank?
I am thinking of cleaning the adblue injector annually as part of routine maintenance. I have also added the Wynns crystal clear and protect additive - hopefully this will help stop blockages.
Some info on cleaning the injector and swapping a tank on O'Reilly's YT channel.
Cleaning injector:-

Swapping adblue tank:-

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[oldiesontour]

You need to look at the bottom of your Adblue tank specifically the shape/presence of the pump unit cover...look up Adblue tanks on eBay ,they are fairly easy to identify.Yours will probably be the CZ made one,from what I am told less reliable than the earlier one with pump on top.I use additive but not convinced it works,with the 3RG only needing 25ml to 10 ltr,and £18 for 250ml retail price why would a least one Adblue manufacturer not add it at production cost next to nothing but crystal free factory ,longer shelf life unique product in a crowded market ??? The ex fleet maintenance manager I spoke to yesterday said they used it but could not say it did or didn't work.
Diagbox is what you need.with full chip interface and van adaptor £120 + £25.+ a decent old laptop 2.5 GHz ISH Upto 50gb hard drive free 4+ GB ram

 

[Drexl]

OK thanks for that Oldie.

 

[Littlewheels]

the time you have ruled out all potential issues you will end up with a Romany caravan and a horse.

Been there done that so it wouldn’t bother me, my Grandfather lived like this all his life.

 

[chris McKenny]

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

Sorry to hear of problems but do not think you should be telling folks to disconnect settings as will cause a fail for mot. Could your non Fiat dongle/app be adding to your problems? , I asked our local Fiat dealer who had not heard of any problems as described ,but did say use only approved écu readers to cancel alarm notifications.I would be interested in hearing what the fix was , have been running adbleu for some years now.

 

[oldiesontour]

I think you need to read and understand the entire thread in order to answer your questions.

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[oldiesontour]

Something I forgot to mention is that another issue with the emmisions system is NOX sensor failure, don't know if it is an issue but I do know heat is a big no no with electronics..so the nox sensor electronics are encased in a heatsink ...wich is then mounted to a paper thin aluminium heat sink mounted as close to the top of the hot exhaust as possible ..cause a problem under the wrong conditions(hot weather,slow moving). ???
Good design????

 

[otr717]

..why would a least one Adblue manufacturer not add it at production cost next to nothing but crystal free factory ,longer shelf life unique product in a crowded market ???

At least one manufacturer does: Total Clearnox.
"A preventive AdBlue® fuel additive solution that goes beyond regular AdBlue®, stopping crystals from forming within SCR systems."

ClearNOx 10L

A preventive AdBlue® fuel additive solution that goes beyond regular AdBlue®, stopping crystals from forming within SCR systems. If AdBlue® does not completely turn into ammonia, crystallisation may occur and cause blockages within the system, leading to expensive vehicle downtime. CLEARNOX is...

manterra.co.uk

The description is a bit confusing because it refers to it as an additive but it's a complete replacement for standard AdBlue.
I use it in my latest VAG 2.0L diesel car because the ea288evo Euro6AP engine uses miserly quantities of AdBlue (not far short of 1000miles/litre) so it can sit in the tank for a long time.

 

[The Wino]

At least one manufacturer does: Total Clearnox.
"A preventive AdBlue® fuel additive solution that goes beyond regular AdBlue®, stopping crystals from forming within SCR systems."

ClearNOx 10L

A preventive AdBlue® fuel additive solution that goes beyond regular AdBlue®, stopping crystals from forming within SCR systems. If AdBlue® does not completely turn into ammonia, crystallisation may occur and cause blockages within the system, leading to expensive vehicle downtime. CLEARNOX is...

manterra.co.uk

The description is a bit confusing because it refers to it as an additive but it's a complete replacement for standard AdBlue.
I use it in my latest VAG 2.0L diesel car because the ea288evo Euro6AP engine uses miserly quantities of AdBlue (not far short of 1000miles/litre) so it can sit in the tank for a long time.

I might try that in our Seat it has a huge range on adblue

 

[gus-lopez]

At least one manufacturer does: Total Clearnox.
"A preventive AdBlue® fuel additive solution that goes beyond regular AdBlue®, stopping crystals from forming within SCR systems."

ClearNOx 10L

A preventive AdBlue® fuel additive solution that goes beyond regular AdBlue®, stopping crystals from forming within SCR systems. If AdBlue® does not completely turn into ammonia, crystallisation may occur and cause blockages within the system, leading to expensive vehicle downtime. CLEARNOX is...

manterra.co.uk

The description is a bit confusing because it refers to it as an additive but it's a complete replacement for standard AdBlue.
I use it in my latest VAG 2.0L diesel car because the ea288evo Euro6AP engine uses miserly quantities of AdBlue (not far short of 1000miles/litre) so it can sit in the tank for a long time.

 

[ceejayt]

My only thought is that putting something different in the system might not be the wisest thing to do if you don't currently have a problem. Early adopters beware!

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[KUSKUS]

We had a Hymer Mercedes 2014 build and it was Ad blue, current Carthago Fiat 2019 and that's not Adblue.

 

[highwood122]

As a old school motor trade worker , bring back the days of no sensors ,anywhere on a vehicle.
Then life will be as it was ..
Ok , less power , less eco , less MPG but at least there was no worry on long distance driving.
And, with modern diesel engines , they are so tuned by electronics , the engine ports are rarely open at full capacity so they end up blocked.
See pictures of broken modern engines , cylinder heads completely blocked.
Take me back to a MAN or AEG or Cummings diesel and drive for 100000 miles

dont understand, what is a cylinder head that is completely blocked. can you enlighten me please

 

[The Wino]

As a old school motor trade worker , bring back the days of no sensors ,anywhere on a vehicle.
Then life will be as it was ..
Ok , less power , less eco , less MPG but at least there was no worry on long distance driving.
And, with modern diesel engines , they are so tuned by electronics , the engine ports are rarely open at full capacity so they end up blocked.
See pictures of broken modern engines , cylinder heads completely blocked.
Take me back to a MAN or AEG or Cummings diesel and drive for 100000 miles

Our Skoda Octavia diesel just clocked 100000 miles with all the modern emissions stuff plenty of poke and great economy. Don't blame the emissions stuff blame manufacturers who can't get it right

 

[Tio64]

Thanks for taking the time to write this and I am very sorry to hear your story. This does, however fill me with concern. We are due to pick up a new Rapido motorhome in July which does use ad blue. Our 8 year old Rapido motorhome didn’t use ad blue but we have a Mercedes that does use it although we have had no problems with it so far. I have read similar threads on this forum to yours and I’m wondering whether we should cancel the order!

Hi there, in actual fact, I for one am beginning to think that diesel vehicles are now a bit like Electric Vehicles, they're good at what they do and offer genuine solutions to a given problem, by all means run them as a company car or purchase them through some kind of PCP or easing scheme, whereby you hand them back after three years or whatever - but you don't want to own them, don't buy them with your own money.

Diesels have been great for many a year, but now, in order to clean up their emissions, they are very complex power units indeed, and when things go wrong it can be very expensive. However, for us motorhomers there is no real choice - petrol engines are not available because of high fuel consumption when lugging weight, and I don't think any of us are ready for EV motorhomes yet, if they ever become a thing.

So we just need to accept the situation and crack on. Most motorhomes won't break down but the the numbers that do will possibly be higher in future than the numbers that used to. We just need to make sure we have breakdown cover.

Time will tell, in the meantime all the very best of luck with your new motorhome.

 

[Tio64]

Are you sure the adblue injector is a problem mine is a2020 and injector and nox sensor are fairly easy to remove ,mine is pvc

It may differ on different engines. I took a pic of mine, it's not a good pic because it looks like you could get a hand on it, but take it from me, it's not possible. You may just be able to touch the injector, but you won't get any tool on it.

It's not the thing with the union, it's the item just beyond it.

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[Tio64]

Hi all, an update - I have my moho booked in at a local business next week to have adblue delete carried out. I asked about the MOT and he confirmed what I have long suspected - the emissions test only checks for soot, it does not measure NOX or any other gas or element of the exhaust gases. The adblue delete is said to be completely undetectable.

Thinking more about what happened to us - of which I am still seething - I still maintain there was nothing wrong with our vehicle other than the ecu thought the adblue tank was empty. The tank was not empty and in my opinion the system should have still been able to draw on the fluid present and should have still functioned.

Nevertheless, even if the system can't function, what does it mean? It means my vehicle no longer conforms to Euro 6 on emissions, and therefore I must not be able to drive it. OK fine, but how come all those other Euro 5-4-3-2-1-and-less vehicles can still drive, but I can't? I'm the one who has invested in the cleaner vehicle here, so how come all those dirtier vehicles are free to be driven but I can't, why am I punished with extreme inconvenience and high cost but they're not? I still think it's outrageous that my vehicle is programmed to not start but older vehicles are free to carry on regardless. (I'm not castigating users of older vehicles here, I have some myself, I'm saying that programming latest vehicles - or any vehicle - to not start is simply not on and is totally unacceptable in my opinion).

Anyway, I've found this video on Youtube, and watching this and other films where the tank is cut open, the crystallisation I was expecting to see isn't there. I think it's all washed off by the fluid. The guy does find some evidence of crystal in the filter but I don't think anywhere near enough to cause a problem. I think mine had a problem with the level sensoring. He's a clever guy in that film, he gets right into the very nitty-gritty of the system, the film is 36 mins long.

It's interesting imo that the sender units of these adblue tanks all appear identical, I also find it interesting that the gubbins can't be removed, it has to be actually cut out of the tank. Therefore it looks like any problems with the adblue system other than the injector itself, will have to be resolved by replacement of the tank.

I hate modern vehicles.

 

[oldiesontour]

Quite right re MOT but it has been on the books to measure and require nox to match euro spec,may or may not be introduced
Very soon. DVSA are well aware of delete and emulator use and are increasing road side checks.MOT checks on DPF has already been introduced,they are always behind the curve but tend to catch up eventually.I would favour an emulator easy to fit easy to remove cheaper.
Totally agree with you on the rest ,but how else would you stop fleet operators saving money by not filling Adblue.
But if we are going to be green things need to be repairable.No reason adblue system could not be separate replaceable units...pump ...level float....heater etc lower repair costs less landfill

 

[Tio64]

but how else would you stop fleet operators saving money by not filling Adblue.

I just don't see that as an issue that Joe Public should resolve, that's an issue for the industries, not us, imo.

 

[gus-lopez]

what is a cylinder head that is completely blocked. can you enlighten me please

It is one where the exhaust outlets are completely blocked with carbon

the emissions test only checks for soot,

Yes

it does not measure NOX or any other gas or element of the exhaust gases.

No & why they cannot be testing at the road side. It isn't an easy 'test' even in a laboratory & why you should never trust them when they say they will be conducting them.

I'm saying that programming latest vehicles - or any vehicle - to not start is simply not on and is totally unacceptable

Yes it should be illegal

MOT checks on DPF has already been introduced

Yes but that is visual. If you do the same as a catalyst ,remove from vehicle, cut around weld, dig out & empty tat inside ,reassemble weld up & replace, no one is any the wiser.

 

[Landy Andy]

I doubt adblue checks will happen any time soon. Thousands of us are, and have removed EGRs, and catalytic converters and nobody really cares. Adblue is just another loop for manufactures to jump through.

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