2021 Adria Matrix Adblue Nightmare and Other Problems Part Two. (1 Viewer)

[Tio64]

I believe the tanks have heaters in them. When the system is deleted the heater is disabled and any adblue left in the system will go off over time. Maybe wrong though.

Yes, they have heaters because adblue freezes at -11. Let's hope the heater reaches all parts of the system in a severe snap, eh?

 

[BikerGraham]

I need to correct my figures, it's 220 million tonnes of Urea that's produced annually, which is not just used in adblue. It's diesel exhaust fluid I should be looking at.
And it's not just supplied by China, there are production plants all around the world.

The global diesel exhaust fluid market was valued at USD 34.4 billion in 2022 and is projected to reach USD 50.0 billion by 2027

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tanktransport.com

The previous article I posted showed an EU average repair bill of 921 euros.

The whole thing is starting to look like one heck of a money go round.

I also note that over 60% of adblue is water, deionised water. That's right, for every ton over 600 kilos is water. That should be fun for some parts of the world.

Adblue is 32.5% urea. Rest water.

Urea has many uses. One chemical plant I ran we used 150tonnes of urea prills a day. To make adhesive for chipboard. The other component is formaldehyde. World wide massive use.

Adblue is minor in the grand scheme of things for urea.

 

[Tio64]

Adblue is 32.5% urea. Rest water.

Urea has many uses. One chemical plant I ran we used 150tonnes of urea prills a day. To make adhesive for chipboard. The other component is formaldehyde. World wide massive use.

Adblue is minor in the grand scheme of things for urea.

Yeah, and as previously said, urea is used in fertiliser too, so us diesel drivers will be competing with food production for supplies.

I came across this previous thread. Seems the cost of my repair bill is typical.

First time top up of AdBlue

I’m approaching the time for a first top up ( 35% left ) , never done this before , is there a procedure to follow ? Cheers . 2023 Burstner Harmony Line .

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[yellowcarnoreturn]

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

What a nightmare
I’ve been saying this for years..the amount of copious amounts of Adblue my Motorhome uses can not possibly be saving the planet.
I’ll be interested to know where you get the Adblue delete carried out bcos I’m next in the queue for it.

 

[Birty]

Having diagnosed a broken pipe ,following dashboard lighting up with warnings like a xmass tree, on the HP outlet from the adblue tank I contacted Fiat to explain. They said there happens to be a 'memo' about the high pressure pipe snapping and have ordered me a new tank/half a day labour to fit but will have to file a report for refund as just 4 mth out of warranty! Just thought other ducato owners should know!

This was my thread. Sounds like you might have the same issue? All caused by a faulty adblue cap. It was creating a vacuum in the tank leading to pressure issues that eventually snapped the pipe off feeding the exaust showing up as a leak! Internal tank collapse are also common. Fiat replaced the cap for new design/New tank and new feeder pipe to the tank! Then they reprogramme all the levels! Its a known Fiat Issue and they not telling anyone! £1700 to fix just out of warranty!!! With hind site I would have had it deleted!!

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[zulurita]

Make sure the adblue tank is emptied and you refill it and that the guarantee covers the system. Have good (very good) breakdown cover.

Not sure I understand about making sure adblue tank is emptied. I was assuming I would need to top up on a regular basis. However I know nothing about Adblue and what I am supposed to do. Think I will have to go to a Fiat garage to find out as dealer doesn't have a Fiat service area.

 

[Clive Mott]

That tale is very worrying. I had a dash display related to an Adblue problem appear and asked the question by phone..Answer was dont worry about it, most likely to sort itself out, which it did.
In our trip to Xabia and back this christmas we used 7 litres of adblue, tank holds 18L and I always make sure it is full before we leave home.

Take care.

C.

 

[Pausim]

It sounds like many people don’t care about their NOX emissions. I do so I will not be deleting the Adblue system on my new van when I get it, even if it costs me. I thought the MOT changes introduced in 2018 included NOX testing for diesels but if they didn’t it may well happen soon, particularly if deleting Adblue systems catches on. Presumably deletions also show up on the ECU history so a deletion might also affect the warranty. I plan on buying the 5 year Fiat warranty so that gives me another reason to leave the Adblue as it is.

I am not preaching or telling others what they should do, just saying why I plan to leave mine alone.

 

[ctc]

Not sure I understand about making sure adblue tank is emptied. I was assuming I would need to top up on a regular basis. However I know nothing about Adblue and what I am supposed to do. Think I will have to go to a Fiat garage to find out as dealer doesn't have a Fiat service area.

When you receive the van you won't know how old the adblue is and it doesn't take long to crystallise causing VERY expensive problems if you can even get the necessary spares. I couldn't.

 

[ronboyracer]

Carry on regardless, seems to be the only way forward in this world we are living in , unfortunately thanks for the original comment though, ignorance is bliss

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[Btg]

Ad blue should always be filled up to top level when it says low also vehicles must be run at high temp so not to clogg up dpf once a month it is needed to be taken on a motorway for about 10 miles if you don’t do these things problems start that’s why stop start with ad blue vehicles is a nightmare and poodling around is no good

 

[Norrimac]

Great post Tio64. Thanks.

I've come to the conclusion that all this anti-pollution/emission crap is INVENTED scaremongering to make money for everyone except us, the end users.

Norm.

 

[Norrimac]

My rig is a 1989 Citroen C-25D. (Fiat/Talbot derivative.)

Doesn't use Adblue as it's a hybrid.

Diesel AND air.

 

[jezport]

Its the main reason I havent looked at changing my van. Mine is a late 2016 euro+ with no adblu no complicated SCR and it is still approved to go in low emission zones.

 

[andyman]

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

What dongle and app do you use. I’ve just bought Alfaobd and a Vgate icar pro.

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[DucatoMan2]

Scary thread. I now understand why one previous thread contributor advocated never filing the tank - less time for crystallization to occur. There also seems to be a counter argument to keep topped up -avoids triggering the whole warning process I guess. Maybe top up when touring and minimise when storing? Whatever I have some big climbs with the trailer coming up; I will spend a while holding high revs to get some temperature. (I'm sure my Volvo manual states it will do this occasionally to clear the dpf, though I can't say I've ever noticed). I guess some additive is worthwhile for peace of mind if nothing else (yes more plastic...).

 

[oldiesontour]

Sorry to hear your situation hope you are on your way soon.I have been playing with Adblue system on my 2020 boxer,I noticed a leak at the bottom of the tank ,so started to research as despite a lifetime of vehicle maintenance on trucks busses vans and cars I new nothing of this Adblue stuff,I decided to try and repair the leak,but did not want to end up with a counter running or other dash lights,so it took a while trying all the diagnostic soft ware that is available Once I was in a position to reset everything I moved on to locating a replacement tank,lined a few new and used ones up,turns out they changed tanks in 2019 mine is the later tank,the old one had the pump unit on top and was quite a big well made(ISH by today's all plastic standards) the new and improved version is in the bottom of the tank mounted into a hole apx8/9" in diameter and is altogether much cheaper looking as it turned out it was what would be a £ 3/4 seal that had broken up possibly through poor installation but as no parts for these tanks are available I would assume most garages would because of warranty issues fit a new tank,this would also occur in the event of a heater or pump or probably even a simple stuck float How green is that !
Having read a number of forums this is a problem across vehicle assemblers ,fiat ford Merc don't make the adblue tank in my case Bosch do and I would assume the same pump /gubbins is simply put into many different shaped tanks and supplied to many different companies,who then using largely if not solely out sourced looms etc assemble the system and control it with their software.All of which is made as cheaply and easy to assemble as possible,a chain with numerous links any one of witch can fail at different times ,for different reasons due to different operational conditions or quality of manufacture,over many years as these failures become evident design changes are implemented(along with changes to reduce production costs) some work others create their own new problems) this has and always will happen. and ultimately we and the goods we buy are the ultimate test rig.
Sorry for the above but it is the basis of this and most other problems and has to be accepted unfortunately .
Now for what to many could be the interesting bit,I have found that the addition of a little box which is very easily wired into the vehicle allows the whole Adblue system to be unplugged,it tells the ECU that the adblue tank is half full the pump pressure is fine and all is well,costs less than ECU delete can be easily removed (to return the vehicle to normal for sale and maybe fit to next vehicle),trucks have been using a version of this that simply plugs into the obd port for years,largely to save the cost of adblue,so much so that vosa are now doing roadside checks.. easily spotted a bulky thing plugged into the obd port.They are not widely available for vans but are available
(are vehicle and model specific) I think cost in UK would be around£250 + fitting ( done by a competent diver or any 1/2 decent mechanic,could even be carried as a get out of trouble tool.I think this is the route I will go,it's cheaper (quoted £450 to delete Adblue) easily removable easily hidden I think best fitted while system is working drain tank then should be easy to remove and recommission system,How many of you would be prepared to fit or carry one Remember it's £250 you will spend today that you may never had needed to or it could prevent a very expensive breakdown and or repair ...be very interesting to see replies !

 

[Archie H]

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

IMO to your right on the money re these cheat systems, they are more trouble than they are worth. The OEM's know this and are only to happy to supply when available replacement parts that are often on back order often times months overdue. I deleted my start stop system in my car for exactly these reasons. Added to which this is a dangerous function as I found out when I pressed the pedal at a roundabout only to find the engine was off and the gap I was going for had I tried with the second or two it took to restart would have been an accident down to me. Ad blue does not go into the engine anyway it is squirted into the exhaust gases prior to the gases hitting the DPF. These can also block up and require a regen and if that doesn't clear then it's a new DPF. Hence why idling an engine with DPF is no longer recommended. End of my wee bit of knowledge and good luck with Fix It Again Tony (FIAT).

BTW having a dongle using the Carly system ~£70 for the basic and I have no affiliation to it other than I use it and it's an excellent choice and a very powerful tool that is compact and can be carried in any vehicle and will do more than clear codes. It can also code programmes out and is reversible as it backs up your current settings to memory for recovery. Urea is also used for de-icing aircraft. So can you imagine the amount added to your 220m tonnes. the world has gone nuts!!

 

[RedFrame]

Sorry to hear your situation hope you are on your way soon.I have been playing with Adblue system on my 2020 boxer,I noticed a leak at the bottom of the tank ,so started to research as despite a lifetime of vehicle maintenance on trucks busses vans and cars I new nothing of this Adblue stuff,I decided to try and repair the leak,but did not want to end up with a counter running or other dash lights,so it took a while trying all the diagnostic soft ware that is available Once I was in a position to reset everything I moved on to locating a replacement tank,lined a few new and used ones up,turns out they changed tanks in 2019 mine is the later tank,the old one had the pump unit on top and was quite a big well made(ISH by today's all plastic standards) the new and improved version is in the bottom of the tank mounted into a hole apx8/9" in diameter and is altogether much cheaper looking as it turned out it was what would be a £ 3/4 seal that had broken up possibly through poor installation but as no parts for these tanks are available I would assume most garages would because of warranty issues fit a new tank,this would also occur in the event of a heater or pump or probably even a simple stuck float How green is that !
Having read a number of forums this is a problem across vehicle assemblers ,fiat ford Merc don't make the adblue tank in my case Bosch do and I would assume the same pump /gubbins is simply put into many different shaped tanks and supplied to many different companies,who then using largely if not solely out sourced looms etc assemble the system and control it with their software.All of which is made as cheaply and easy to assemble as possible,a chain with numerous links any one of witch can fail at different times ,for different reasons due to different operational conditions or quality of manufacture,over many years as these failures become evident design changes are implemented(along with changes to reduce production costs) some work others create their own new problems) this has and always will happen. and ultimately we and the goods we buy are the ultimate test rig.
Sorry for the above but it is the basis of this and most other problems and has to be accepted unfortunately .
Now for what to many could be the interesting bit,I have found that the addition of a little box which is very easily wired into the vehicle allows the whole Adblue system to be unplugged,it tells the ECU that the adblue tank is half full the pump pressure is fine and all is well,costs less than ECU delete can be easily removed (to return the vehicle to normal for sale and maybe fit to next vehicle),trucks have been using a version of this that simply plugs into the obd port for years,largely to save the cost of adblue,so much so that vosa are now doing roadside checks.. easily spotted a bulky thing plugged into the obd port.They are not widely available for vans but are available
(are vehicle and model specific) I think cost in UK would be around£250 + fitting ( done by a competent diver or any 1/2 decent mechanic,could even be carried as a get out of trouble tool.I think this is the route I will go,it's cheaper (quoted £450 to delete Adblue) easily removable easily hidden I think best fitted while system is working drain tank then should be easy to remove and recommission system,How many of you would be prepared to fit or carry one Remember it's £250 you will spend today that you may never had needed to or it could prevent a very expensive breakdown and or repair ...be very interesting to see replies !

Links to the device?

Cheers
Red.

 

[Gordy29]

Sorry to hear about

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

sorry about your problem I had problems won’t go into all the details but I had to have a new adblue tank fitted thank goodness under warranty ,I don’t trust the gauge which is fitted to my m/home so I keep mine topped up so far Andover 4000 thousand miles later it’s been ok ,still paranoid though .i agree with all you said about not green at all

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[BattyBurke#1]

Adblue is not about CO2 it reduces NOX and particulates that are dangerous to health. CO2 emissions are and global warming are another issue.

Or, more likely, CO2 and "global warming" are non-issues that are part of a scam to rip off the poor and middle-income people and enrich the already über-rich even further.

 

[Pausim]

Or, more likely, CO2 and "global warming" are non-issues that are part of a scam to rip off the poor and middle-income people and enrich the already über-rich even further.

I don’t agree but you are entitled to your view.

 

[highwood122]

Sounds absolutely awful and concerning as we are about to purchase a new motorhome with Ad blue.

i have one also, fiat ducato 2021 and for the privilage i can pay much more for adblue in the uk than mainland europe plus vat of course

 

[oldiesontour]

Yes great point Adblue and all other emmisions reduction products required by law to help prevent pollution and TAXED a bit disingenuous to say the least

 

[ontheroadagain]

I have added a bottle of additive that is supposed to prevent crystallization.
Does it work? I have no idea to be honest but the reviews are generally good.
It does make you wonder if crystallization is such a problem then why doesn't the adblue manufacturers put an additive in it?
Probably down to cost?
This is the one I have used but others are available.

www.forteuk.co.uk/news/prevent-crystals-in-adblue-systems

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[Mike Rivers]

There’s a lot of trepidation re AdBlue. I have to say it’s not hard work. First, and before you set off for journey or en route at earliest point use an AdBlue pump to top up your AdBlue reservoir. Not from 5l or 10l plastic can. This way you can honestly say I’ve filled up to the max as in 100% not 90% or near enough. Fill until dispenser starts clicking (as with fuel). It’s quite common on some vehicles (Sprinters for example) to display a message saying ‘No restart after xxx miles’. And in this example you’d need to top up to 100% to cancel out the warning and the impending ‘No restart’. Just adding a few litres and hoping for the best is no good as the sensor will not reset. So my best advice, take it or leave it, is fill up via pumps, avoid spills and fill up to 100% everytime, not dribs and drabs because you saw a good deal at Asda. Do the job properly otherwise you’ll invite problems.

 

[oldiesontour]

I have asked the same question on this and other forums.
I posted on this forum a couple of days ago ...I mixed and then spilled some and put a wetted cloth in freezer neither showed signs of crystallization when left for 24hrs
Draw your own conclusions
The one I used was 3RG I believe 25 ml per 10 LTRs. £18 for 250ml

 

[martin2603]

While in my local Hyundai dealer this morning a somewaht frustrated lady walks in, over to the service desk "You repaired my car and fitted a new system, its gone into countdown mode again!!"

Luckily my MH and Car are both Euro6 neither have Adblue.

 

[AlanandMayya]

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

Sorry to hear of your trouble. I agree with you, and think there's a book in this - this, and the many other ways interest groups lobby to enact legislation that appears to be indisputably A Good Thing (reducing pollution, safeguarding the public - surely everyone wants that, right?) but in fact shifts benefit to themselves and costs to others. My favourite hobby horse - if you install your own domestic solar system (not using an MCS certified installer) almost nobody will buy your power. Not for any good reason like safety as they first claim until you challenge them - the Distribution Network Operator, the technical authority both de jure and de facto, has accepted and registered it as technically OK. If you challenge their flawed (dishonest) replies, the true reason comes down to .... well its just our policy, goodbye. Its a closed shop, jobs for the boys. As news reports become more and more trilling about the latest fashion in virtue, and light on the technical details, this business model becomes easier. No, I'm not a grumpy old man either, I remember similar issues from my youth (banks cannot possibly open on Saturdays; you cant drive a taxi in London without a Black Cab cert); this is not a what-is-the-world-coming-to rant. Hope you can salvage some good times on holiday amidst this.

 

[Tio64]

...

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