Wood burning stoves

[Silver-Fox]

If everyone started switching to woodbrners as their main heat source city centres would very quickly become very unpleasant places for anyone with respiratory illnesses.

Even if defra approved??

 

[enark]

It does depend to a large extent on the numbers involved. If everyone started switching to woodbrners as their main heat source city centres would very quickly become very unpleasant places for anyone with respiratory illnesses. In the context of motorhome heating off grid I suspect the least polluting heat source is gas. In houses electric if generated from renewables.
I don't think the number of off grid woodburner heaters is likely to make any difference largely due to low numbers than because they are environmentally friendly.

And their belies the problem.

If we scrap gas boilers and therefore heating, we need another source.

Air pumps only take some of the load, we need wood burners to help - look at many new houses built with air pumps, they have fire places and chimneys too - for wood burners.

Surely all the great brains can see natural gas is clearly the best way to heat homes? Its clean, its very efficient and its relatively cheap. If you have a air pump, to properly heat your home will see your electricity bill go very high.

The global warming i get, but its been caused by the emissions over the last century - coal fired power stations, euro zero ICE, oh and two world wars….+ the naturally occurring stuff from the Steppes…

 

[Bertilak]

Are we not in a loop trying to apply Building Regulations thinking to motorhomes... If you want to compare efficiency perhaps the Govt should insist on all mohos have at least 150mm of insulation... like a reasonable quality new house.
Of course mohos are considerably smaller than houses, to the extent they would be banned for the main bedroom being too small..., conversely there small size means they waste less less energy to heat than something better engineered but 10 x the size.

Looking for an analogy, I see the only regs for solid fuel stoves in narrowboats relate to safety, and nothing for smoke. (Others way have first hand experience). So it's probably like having fires outside of your house (bbqs, pizza ovens, bonfires) where you can do what you like until you annoy your neighbours. Even in the centre of a metropolis.
The OP clearly has considered the safety aspects, and is burning the best possible coal to minimise nuisance. I'd say more power to him!

 

[The Wino]

And their belies the problem.

If we scrap gas boilers and therefore heating, we need another source.

Air pumps only take some of the load, we need wood burners to help - look at many new houses built with air pumps, they have fire places and chimneys too - for wood burners.

Surely all the great brains can see natural gas is clearly the best way to heat homes? Its clean, its very efficient and its relatively cheap. If you have a air pump, to properly heat your home will see your electricity bill go very high.

The global warming i get, but its been caused by the emissions over the last century - coal fired power stations, euro zero ICE, oh and two world wars….+ the naturally occurring stuff from the Steppes…

I think there were much worse causes of pollution over the last century but carbon emissions would be much higher now with the size of the population the fact that everyone expects their own vehicles and comfortably heated homes. Other much colder countries seem to manage perfectly well with heat pumps and electric vehicles why can't we?

 

[Guigsy]

And their belies the problem.

If we scrap gas boilers and therefore heating, we need another source.

Air pumps only take some of the load, we need wood burners to help - look at many new houses built with air pumps, they have fire places and chimneys too - for wood burners.

Surely all the great brains can see natural gas is clearly the best way to heat homes? Its clean, its very efficient and its relatively cheap. If you have a air pump, to properly heat your home will see your electricity bill go very high.

The global warming i get, but its been caused by the emissions over the last century - coal fired power stations, euro zero ICE, oh and two world wars….+ the naturally occurring stuff from the Steppes…

Gas produces less air pollution. But it still produces a lot of CO2.

All the new builds I've seen are very warm because they've got great insulation. They don't need supplementary heating from a log burner.

And a heat pump will probably cost you about the same in electric as you were paying before on the gas boiler. If you get solar, then you'll save more.

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[Brains]

It does depend to a large extent on the numbers involved. If everyone started switching to woodbrners as their main heat source city centres would very quickly become very unpleasant places for anyone with respiratory illnesses. In the context of motorhome heating off grid I suspect the least polluting heat source is gas. In houses electric if generated from renewables.
I don't think the number of off grid woodburner heaters is likely to make any difference largely due to low numbers than because they are environmentally friendly.

However, central Oslo (Helsinki, Stockholm etc.) do not have a problem with pollution, despite the majority of homes using log burners as the primary heat source.

The reason being they use proper, fuel efficient stoves.
They use decent quality dried wood.

No Scandinavian would be seen dead installing many of the cheaper log stoves that you can still buy in the UK.

Likewise even a 10 year old Scandinavian kid knows the basics of stacking and drying wood, they would laugh at the idea of burning 'found' wood, picked from the forest floor a few months earlier, or burning old pallets or builders offcuts.

 

[pampam]

50 years ago i lived in a trailer which had a drop down bed and a solid fuel stove,what a snug old tank it was,the great thing about the stove was it was enamel,and the flu went up through a cupboard and inside the cupboard was a chrome tank wrapped around the flu ,it had a tap,and if you filled the tank with water ,the flu heated the water and bingo a tank full of hot water,as well as making toast,boiling a kettle,and making a stew,this was in an ordinary 22foot caravan,ive never seen one since,but often thought id have another in caravan or motorhome well done pixelnomad

 

[Happy Jack]

Gas produces less air pollution. But it still produces a lot of CO2.

All the new builds I've seen are very warm because they've got great insulation. They don't need supplementary heating from a log burner.

And a heat pump will probably cost you about the same in electric as you were paying before on the gas boiler. If you get solar, then you'll save more.

We've had solar panels and air source heat pump for 3 winters now.
Found running costs OK.
BUT, when temperatures rarely get down below 3c approx the gas heating kicks in because efficiency of the heat pump is poor.
Costs increase significantly even allowing for the fact that temperature is lower so the gas heating has more work to do.
We get paid 17p/Kwh for exporting the solar but on our fixed contract we pay 21p/Kwh for what we use.
We have changed our usage habits to make best use of solar when Sun is shining.
For example, will often cook our main meal of the day during late morning and just reheat later on.

 

[Guigsy]

We've had solar panels and air source heat pump for 3 winters now.
Found running costs OK.
BUT, when temperatures rarely get down below 3c approx the gas heating kicks in because efficiency of the heat pump is poor.
Costs increase significantly even allowing for the fact that temperature is lower so the gas heating has more work to do.
We get paid 17p/Kwh for exporting the solar but on our fixed contract we pay 21p/Kwh for what we use.
We have changed our usage habits to make best use of solar when Sun is shining.
For example, will often cook our main meal of the day during late morning and just reheat later on.

I bet if you only ran the heat pump, across the whole year, a heat pump costs about the same as a gas boiler. It's better at some times, and worse at others. If you've got solar, it makes it cheaper. And if you've still got your old gas boiler, you can switch for the few weeks of a year that the heat pump isn't cheaper.

 

[Happy Jack]

I bet if you only ran the heat pump, across the whole year, a heat pump costs about the same as a gas boiler. It's better at some times, and worse at others. If you've got solar, it makes it cheaper. And if you've still got your old gas boiler, you can switch for the few weeks of a year that the heat pump isn't cheaper.

Our heat pump is an Hitachi.
The "setpoint" for adjusting the temperature at which the gas central heating kicks in is accessible from the Hitachi wall mounted remote controller. I know the passcode but not sure what setting I need to adjust.
As part of the grant installation we got solar panels, the air source heat pump and a new gas combi boiler.
Was a long and winding road to get g98 accreditation so that we could get paid for the leccy we export but done now.
Partly because of the stress I've been a bit lax on finding out all I need to know , and the boiler still hasn't been serviced.
The installer was 0800 repair and they don't do servicing!
Will be organising it but am waiting until the spring.
Then I will find out which setpoints I can alter and can the heat pump be totally switched off if I want to run gas heating only.
Then I will be able to test to see if one or the other is more expensive to run or are they equal.
Can't prove it one way or another until then.

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[Two on Tour]

And if you've still got your old gas boiler, you can switch for the few weeks of a year that the heat pump isn't cheaper.

That will not happen as it is required that the old fossil fuelled boiler is taken out to get the government grant for a heat pump unless you pay the full cost of the installation, and the new heat pump normally utilises the existing pipe runs from the old boiler positions.

 

[Happy Jack]

That will not happen as it is required that the old fossil fuelled boiler is taken out to get the government grant for a heat pump unless you pay the full cost of the installation, and the new heat pump normally utilises the existing pipe runs from the old boiler positions.

Yes you are correct.
Our "old" combiboiler was just 6 years old, it still had to be replaced.

 

[enark]

Gas produces less air pollution. But it still produces a lot of CO2.

All the new builds I've seen are very warm because they've got great insulation. They don't need supplementary heating from a log burner.

And a heat pump will probably cost you about the same in electric as you were paying before on the gas boiler. If you get solar, then you'll save more.

You clearly dont have air pump heating, they are not particularly good when needed.

 

[The Wino]

You clearly dont have air pump heating, they are not particularly good when needed.

Presumably it's really hot in Norway in winter then!

‘You can walk around in a T-shirt’: how Norway brought heat pumps in from the cold

Device installed in two-thirds of households of country whose experience suggests switching to greener heating can be done

www.theguardian.com

From the article the big difference was when they increased taxes on heating methods involving higher carbon emissions. 60% of homes in Norway have a heat pump they're fitting more every year than the whole of the UK has installed despite a much smaller population. Same as their push for EVs a modern forwards thinking country.

 

[Guigsy]

You clearly dont have air pump heating, they are not particularly good when needed.

My brother has had one for about 18 months. He's not had a day when it didn't warm the house yet. He's got immersion heaters as extreme weather support. He thinks they'll be needed if it gets to about -10C for a prolonged period.

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[Happy Jack]

You clearly dont have air pump heating, they are not particularly good when needed.

Our air source heat pump works well during most conditions.
Just have to live with the limitation of the fact that it only heats the radiators to 55°c and takes quite a while.
Once I find out how to change the setpoint at which the gas heating kicks in I can modify our use to get a happy medium.

 

[Guigsy]

Our air source heat pump works well during most conditions.
Just have to live with the limitation of the fact that it only heats the radiators to 55°c and takes quite a while.
Once I find out how to change the setpoint at which the gas heating kicks in I can modify our use to get a happy medium.

With gas heating, you generally have the radiators being heated for a few hours. And then rely on the heat in the system to keep the house warm.

With heat pumps, you've got to get used to the system running many hours per day. It's counter intuitive, but that's how to run them most efficiently.

Because the radiators aren't as hot, you don't have the option to rapidly warm the house. So you generally you set the thermostat timer at a comfortable temperature for the day and an overnight temperature a couple of degrees lower, and that's it. No quick blasts and being off in-between.

 

[The Wino]

With gas heating, you generally have the radiators being heated for a few hours. And then rely on the heat in the system to keep the house warm.

With heat pumps, you've got to get used to the system running many hours per day. It's counter intuitive, but that's how to run them most efficiently.

Because the radiators aren't as hot, you don't have the option to rapidly warm the house. So you generally you set the thermostat timer at a comfortable temperature for the day and an overnight temperature a couple of degrees lower, and that's it. No quick blasts and being off in-between.

I think it would probably work really well in our house the previous owners put in lots of rads (3 in the living room all big) and we built an extension with plumbed in underfloor heating. In an 80,s house with micobore it would require a whole new system. Maybe new builds ought to have insulation and rad specs for heating with water at 55degrees so retro fitting is easier even with gas heating it lets us turn off the boiler when we go out and heat the house quickly when we return. I think there's a myth that you're better to run gas boilers at a low heat for longer.

 

[Guigsy]

I think it would probably work really well in our house the previous owners put in lots of rads (3 in the living room all big) and we built an extension with plumbed in underfloor heating. In an 80,s house with micobore it would require a whole new system. Maybe new builds ought to have insulation and rad specs for heating with water at 55degrees so retro fitting is easier even with gas heating it lets us turn off the boiler when we go out and heat the house quickly when we return. I think there's a myth that you're better to run gas boilers at a low heat for longer.

I think the microbore thing is becoming a non issue. If your house still has microbore, it's probably clogged, rotten and kinked and needs replacing anyway. It was always unreliable. And now it's difficult to get parts. It's not a heat pump specific barrier.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Woodburners are totally wrong in new builds.
Too much heat in one area.
If you try and lower the output the stove and flue will soot up.
All homes work better with a steady heat source, best to insulate as much as possible and have some sort of central heating.

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[The Wino]

I think the microbore thing is becoming a non issue. If your house still has microbore, it's probably clogged, rotten and kinked and needs replacing anyway. It was always unreliable. And now it's difficult to get parts. It's not a heat pump specific barrier.

Totally agree it's rubbish stuff but we have a couple of friends on an estate blighted with the stuff and they are still struggling on with it

 

[buzz1]

You clearly dont have air pump heating, they are not particularly good when needed.

I agree with you,
We did our own self build with block beam on ground floor and incorporating underfloor heating via air source heat pump with radiators up stairs only , very good insulation throughout, but also installed a decent wood burner but although air source heat pump work extremely well and it’s best with underfloor heating to benefit heat pump , to be honest we did need the wood burner when really got cold -5 ,
Which was not that often, although it did get down to -10 during the build and that was cold as we were in static caravan living on site .
We had a bit of land but I find you end of having bonfires more frequently,
which is counterproductive when when go to saving the environment with modern technologies ,
Moved since now living in older house with modern boiler but with oil heating and wood burner but crap insulation , septic tank and bore hole , so air source heat pump would not in this house environment. That why wood burners /aga are essential to rural properties.
If electric goes you have nothing above,
thats when motorhome comes in to play as it provides heating / hot water / toilet and bottled water.
I do love a wood burner though.

 

[CazPaul]

During storm Arwen our electricity went off for 8 days in freezing cold conditions, without a stove/range we would have been stuffed, it was great to cook on.

Someone down in the village moved in an old house, took chimney down, installed heat pumps, they had to move into a hotel for the duration.

You should always have a back up in a very rural location

 

[The Wino]

During storm Arwen our electricity went off for 8 days in freezing cold conditions, without a stove/range we would have been stuffed, it was great to cook on.

Someone down in the village moved in an old house, took chimney down, installed heat pumps, they had to move into a hotel for the duration.

You should always have a back up in a very rural location

Although when we had a similar thing quite a few years ago we we're stuck with plenty of gas but no way of running the boiler. I'm thinking of a vehicle to load adapter for the EV so I can run power to the central heating from the EV if we had a similar power cut again

 

[stewartwebr]

Looks brilliant and can imagine how great it is sitting there with it burning. I have enough insurance woes without trying to convince them my modification of installing a wood burner stove won’t increase the risk

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[enark]

I agree with you,
We did our own self build with block beam on ground floor and incorporating underfloor heating via air source heat pump with radiators up stairs only , very good insulation throughout, but also installed a decent wood burner but although air source heat pump work extremely well and it’s best with underfloor heating to benefit heat pump , to be honest we did need the wood burner when really got cold -5 ,
Which was not that often, although it did get down to -10 during the build and that was cold as we were in static caravan living on site .
We had a bit of land but I find you end of having bonfires more frequently,
which is counterproductive when when go to saving the environment with modern technologies ,
Moved since now living in older house with modern boiler but with oil heating and wood burner but crap insulation , septic tank and bore hole , so air source heat pump would not in this house environment. That why wood burners /aga are essential to rural properties.
If electric goes you have nothing above,
thats when motorhome comes in to play as it provides heating / hot water / toilet and bottled water.
I do love a wood burner though.

Yes you identify another key aspect.

City dwellers dont get half the power cuts of rural people, and electric heating is no use with no electric.

I can boil water etc and heat a room from a wood burner…

At least with an oil or gas tank, you know youve got energy.

 

[enark]

Our air source heat pump works well during most conditions.
Just have to live with the limitation of the fact that it only heats the radiators to 55°c and takes quite a while.
Once I find out how to change the setpoint at which the gas heating kicks in I can modify our use to get a happy medium.

What if you have a power cut?

 

[Silver-Fox]

BUT, when temperatures rarely get down below 3c approx the gas heating kicks in because efficiency of the heat pump is poor.
Costs increase significantly even allowing for the fact that temperature is lower so the gas heating has more work to do.

That’s not really selling having a heat pump.

You are saying if you only have a heat pump and if you don’t have solar it’s going to cost a fortune to run.

 

[CazPaul]

What if you have a power cut?

Then it doesn’t work.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I think the microbore thing is becoming a non issue. If your house still has microbore, it's probably clogged, rotten and kinked and needs replacing anyway.

Micro bore was installed in our house probably more than 20 years ago, possibly longer.

I’ve been ripping it out as we are renovating the house.
I was really surprised how clean the system was.
Very little iron showing in the radiators as well.

My only disappointment was how little I got for the copper at the scrapers

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